The Daily Blues
by Adam Holisky 
Mar 16th 2010 at 11:00PM
Don't nerf me, bro!
Table of Contents
Ghostcrawler
Ghostcrawler -- AoE TankingWhat I'm getting at is that threat should not be frustrating to hold, and the inability to tank large packs of mobs should not be because we just don't have the threat for it. Rather, the inability to tank large packs of mobs should come from the inability to survive large packs of mobs in the first place.
Yeah, we'd basically agree with that. The risk should be that the tank will die, not that the tank can't hold aggro. However I have to caveat that because otherwise any time anyone ever fails to hold aggro for whatever reason they'll blame it on their tools instead of taking some responsibility for hitting the right button or gearing correctly. Threat still needs to matter as a mechanic
And without launching into class warfare again, we think the paladin is a little too good in the AE department so we'd rather bring them down than bring everyone else up. You also need to compare tanks at the Naxx level, not the Icecrown level for purposes of threat.
Put succinctly, imagine all 4 tanks tank groups about as well as a warrior tanked groups in Naxx, but that the mobs hit harder and AE damage was a little lower such that you wanted to CC and single target more of the pulls (but not every pull -- there is still a place for Blizzarding them all down). That's the goal.
--
My comment seemed to have confused a lot of people. The point was that we know we have a scaling problem where dps specs increase their dps by more than tanks increase their dps. Warrior AE tanking felt on target in Naxx but started slipping behind as the mages and rogues were improving their gear. I was trying to share our goal, which was that AE tanking should feel (at all levels, unless you're overgearing stuff) the way AE tanking in Naxx felt, with two exceptions: 1) AE damage is lower for the dps specs, 2) Sometimes those mobs in those packs hit harder such that just rounding them all up can be dangerous for the tank.
--
And i am sick and tired of being the goddamn scapegoat class, I can name 3 classes right now that have been running around facerolling their way to 2200s in arenas since season 6, but the paladin is doing a little better on TRASH PULLS and the discussion of nerfs start coming up? Leave us the hell alone already, God. Damn. It.
"Don't nerf me bro."
You guys are welcome to post what you want (within limits), but I'm not personally interested in having another discussion in this thread about whether paladins are overpowered or repressed by the man.
My point was to share how we think AE tanking should feel (relatively easy to maintain threat but still asking the tank to actually stay awake and push buttons) and where the risks should be (the tank dies / the AE spamming becomes inefficient). We like the warrior model. They push more than one button. More generation is active than passive. They do still have to consider threat as a mechanic. That's more of what we're going for (again, the way it felt in earlier raid tiers. The threat has slipped behind as damage fell behind in later tiers). Druids by contrast can just spam Swipe, which gets boring. Paladins get too much benefit out of HoR + SoC (at the very least) such that they risk pulling off of other tanks but have relatively little chance of ever losing aggro to dps. The chance to lose threat can be relatively low, but it can't be absolutely trivial or we might as well let you spam Commanding Shout.
Yeah, we'd basically agree with that. The risk should be that the tank will die, not that the tank can't hold aggro. However I have to caveat that because otherwise any time anyone ever fails to hold aggro for whatever reason they'll blame it on their tools instead of taking some responsibility for hitting the right button or gearing correctly. Threat still needs to matter as a mechanic
And without launching into class warfare again, we think the paladin is a little too good in the AE department so we'd rather bring them down than bring everyone else up. You also need to compare tanks at the Naxx level, not the Icecrown level for purposes of threat.
Put succinctly, imagine all 4 tanks tank groups about as well as a warrior tanked groups in Naxx, but that the mobs hit harder and AE damage was a little lower such that you wanted to CC and single target more of the pulls (but not every pull -- there is still a place for Blizzarding them all down). That's the goal.
--
My comment seemed to have confused a lot of people. The point was that we know we have a scaling problem where dps specs increase their dps by more than tanks increase their dps. Warrior AE tanking felt on target in Naxx but started slipping behind as the mages and rogues were improving their gear. I was trying to share our goal, which was that AE tanking should feel (at all levels, unless you're overgearing stuff) the way AE tanking in Naxx felt, with two exceptions: 1) AE damage is lower for the dps specs, 2) Sometimes those mobs in those packs hit harder such that just rounding them all up can be dangerous for the tank.
--
And i am sick and tired of being the goddamn scapegoat class, I can name 3 classes right now that have been running around facerolling their way to 2200s in arenas since season 6, but the paladin is doing a little better on TRASH PULLS and the discussion of nerfs start coming up? Leave us the hell alone already, God. Damn. It.
"Don't nerf me bro."
You guys are welcome to post what you want (within limits), but I'm not personally interested in having another discussion in this thread about whether paladins are overpowered or repressed by the man.
My point was to share how we think AE tanking should feel (relatively easy to maintain threat but still asking the tank to actually stay awake and push buttons) and where the risks should be (the tank dies / the AE spamming becomes inefficient). We like the warrior model. They push more than one button. More generation is active than passive. They do still have to consider threat as a mechanic. That's more of what we're going for (again, the way it felt in earlier raid tiers. The threat has slipped behind as damage fell behind in later tiers). Druids by contrast can just spam Swipe, which gets boring. Paladins get too much benefit out of HoR + SoC (at the very least) such that they risk pulling off of other tanks but have relatively little chance of ever losing aggro to dps. The chance to lose threat can be relatively low, but it can't be absolutely trivial or we might as well let you spam Commanding Shout.
Other
Bornakk -- Darrowmere PvE conversionDarrowmere is now a PvE realm! Starting today, this realm will be recommended for New Players, which means a lot of people will be creating new characters on this realm. These will be a mix of completely new players as well as experienced veterans who are looking for a new start. We hope you will make these people welcome here on Darrowmere.
If you still want to move from Darrowmere to a PvP realm, Free Character Moves to Vashj, Malorne, Auchindoun, and Alterac Mountains will be available until April 6.
If you still want to move from Darrowmere to a PvP realm, Free Character Moves to Vashj, Malorne, Auchindoun, and Alterac Mountains will be available until April 6.
EU Five Year contest winnersWe are pleased to announce the winners of the fourth week of our Five Year Anniversary Contest!
http://www.wow-europe.com/en/contests/fiveyear/
Congratulations to our twenty-five winners, all of whom have won a QcK Limited Edition Mousepad, a World of Warcraft MMO Gaming Mouse, and a Siberia V2 Full-Size Headset, all from SteelSeries!
http://www.steelseries.com/int?utm_source=blizzard&utm_medium=banner&utm_content=int&utm_campaign=5year
Take a moment to check out the winning entries:
http://www.wow-europe.com/en/contests/fiveyear/winners.html
And don't forget to get your cameras and send us your submissions now!
http://www.wow-europe.com/contests/fanartcontest.html?locale=en_gb
Remember that this week's theme is You're in the Game!
http://www.wow-europe.com/en/contests/fiveyear/
Congratulations to our twenty-five winners, all of whom have won a QcK Limited Edition Mousepad, a World of Warcraft MMO Gaming Mouse, and a Siberia V2 Full-Size Headset, all from SteelSeries!
http://www.steelseries.com/int?utm_source=blizzard&utm_medium=banner&utm_content=int&utm_campaign=5year
Take a moment to check out the winning entries:
http://www.wow-europe.com/en/contests/fiveyear/winners.html
And don't forget to get your cameras and send us your submissions now!
http://www.wow-europe.com/contests/fanartcontest.html?locale=en_gb
Remember that this week's theme is You're in the Game!
Five Year Anniversary Interview: The Arena MasterWe've added yet another in-depth interview with one of World of Warcraft's millions of players for our five-year anniversary site. Luek from U.S. realm The Underbog shares his views on his last five years of dynamic and fluctuating gameplay focuses, particularly with regard to PvP, and provides some insight on where he sees himself once Cataclysm arrives.
http://www.wow-europe.com/wowanniversary/interview/luek.xml
Check out the anniversary page for our full discussion.
http://www.wow-europe.com/wowanniversary/interview/
http://www.wow-europe.com/wowanniversary/interview/luek.xml
Check out the anniversary page for our full discussion.
http://www.wow-europe.com/wowanniversary/interview/
EU Forum WatchForum Watch
Vaneras, Slorkuz, Wryxian & Ancilorn
This week on the WoW Europe Community forums:
This week our Poll asks 'Which is your favourite TBC raid instance', and why?
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=12900071369&sid=1
Xenoronin's very own PMUI: Episode 108 is out! Check it out for your up to date weekly dose of interface information!
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=12900071261&sid=1
Which area in WoW do you find the most cosy?
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=12829494202&sid=1
If you could side with one WoW villain, which would it be, and why?
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=12899840751&sid=1
What's the rarest drop you have ever had?
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=12899879903&sid=1
Many people know very little about the mysterious king of Stormwind, Varian Wrynn, so stop on by here and check out the hard facts!
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=12900069957&sid=1
Guides, Guides and more Guides!
First up again – here's how to spot Account theft emails!
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=12304665894&sid=1
Don't spank the Tank!
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=12025325334&sid=1
Here's a handy guide on how to make levelling more fun!
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=9521346385&sid=1
Vaneras, Slorkuz, Wryxian & Ancilorn
This week on the WoW Europe Community forums:
This week our Poll asks 'Which is your favourite TBC raid instance', and why?
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=12900071369&sid=1
Xenoronin's very own PMUI: Episode 108 is out! Check it out for your up to date weekly dose of interface information!
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=12900071261&sid=1
Which area in WoW do you find the most cosy?
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=12829494202&sid=1
If you could side with one WoW villain, which would it be, and why?
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=12899840751&sid=1
What's the rarest drop you have ever had?
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=12899879903&sid=1
Many people know very little about the mysterious king of Stormwind, Varian Wrynn, so stop on by here and check out the hard facts!
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=12900069957&sid=1
Guides, Guides and more Guides!
First up again – here's how to spot Account theft emails!
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=12304665894&sid=1
Don't spank the Tank!
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=12025325334&sid=1
Here's a handy guide on how to make levelling more fun!
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=9521346385&sid=1
Blizzard
- Diablo II Ladder Reset on March 23rd
- The voice of Jaina Proudmoore will be appearing at the University of Alaska as part of their 6th Annual Senshi-Con.
- Blizzard ponders merits of licensing Battle.net to third parties
Filed under: The Daily Blues
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Hivetyrant Mar 16th 2010 11:42PM
In regards to tanking multiple mobs, I find the only issue is when I am grouped with people with much better gear and no clue(?), because while I try and attack each of the enemies to keep threat high, i will generally focus on one (pally tank so I need to have judgement on something) and if the DPS decide to just attack one of the side mobs and smash it quickly, I can' keep up and have to switch>taunt>gain agro>switch which takes time.
Hope that makes sense, i'm new to tanking and am still figuring it out, but I know the fine users of wow.com will show me what i'm doing wrong!
Sky Mar 16th 2010 11:56PM
Just do the best you can. If dps who outgear you by a mile pulls aggro then its their own fault. Of course everyone, including me, prefers the high threat tank but you just gotta play with the hand you're dealt. If i get into a pug with a tank who is just starting to gear up i just lower my dps a bit so I don't pull aggro. I'm not saying that it's ok to suck if you're a tank but if you are absolutely doing everything you can and you're still losing threat then theres really nothing you can do about it.
I think the problem is that most dps players have been taught since they were born to do as much damage as possible. Most of these highly geared dps players are used to having tanks in similar gear level, class knowledge and raiding experience that is why they never have to worry about pulling aggro. Personally, I just concentrate on making the tank and healer's job as easy as possible. It's just a pug people no one's going to criticize you for doing less than 4k dps and if they do well just ignore them and carry on.
Dragoniel Mar 17th 2010 1:25AM
Mark the mob? Seriously, I can't remember when was the last time did I grouped with a tank, who cared enough to keybind "mark skull" and just press it when changing targets.
As a mage, I assist the tank on the pull (aka target the mob he is targeting at the moment) and keep going. On bigger pulls its hard to see what mob you are targeting out there in the mess. If you decide to switch targets for whatever reason we will be on a separate mobs. And if your threat is not very high you can lose control of the mob before I notice that I'm now attacking the wrong target.
Skull = "this is the primary target. I expect you to focus on him without any aoe damage"
X = "this is the secondary target. I expect you to switch targets and focus on him without hitting other mobs after the skull is dead"
Moon = "this target needs to be sheeped until it becomes primary"
Diamond = "this target needs to be CC'd in any way except fear until it becomes primary"
No marks = "there is no priority. Just kill them whatever way you wish in whatever order. I have strong threat on all of them"
krstcs Mar 17th 2010 9:42AM
I would suggest that DPSers (like me, most of the time) should create the following macro in place of the normal WoW "assist" function and bind it:
/assist [@focus,exists][@pet,exists][@target]
Set your focus to the tank, then just spam your assist button when the tank stops the initial pull and then after each target dies. This should keep you on the tank's primary target, most of the time.
SamLowry Mar 17th 2010 10:35PM
Though it seems sadly counterintuitive, I've learned the hard way to really dial down my dps if I actually want to survive H HoR. No consecrate, no holy wrath, no divine storm--single target damage only.
My GS isn't even 4800, I have an i219 weapon, and my dps is usually around 3k, so no, I didn't think I was exploding with dps previously, but if I cast so much as a consecrate a wipe seems to follow soonafter.
Or maybe I've just been stuck with a lot of lousy tanks.
Mike Mar 16th 2010 11:53PM
I just did 4.2k dps on a 4 mob pull in h-fos beating out 2/3 of the dps. I'm a off spec prot paladin in mostly badge gear, a couple 232 icc heroic pieces and a couple icc 10 pieces. Nothing special.
You have to admit.. that's a lot of dps.
victorhirst Mar 17th 2010 12:16AM
*golfclap*
stay Mar 17th 2010 12:20AM
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Mal%27Ganis&cn=Modk
Worlds First Shadowmourne goes to a DK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Come to my page!
Sky Mar 17th 2010 12:23AM
and we should care why? Because you put countless hours of time towards pixels in a game? Grats bro, you totally accomplished something in life
Sky Mar 17th 2010 12:36AM
Sorry I lost it there... the post just seemed so obnoxious.. pls downrate my earlier post
Hivetyrant Mar 17th 2010 12:43AM
Nah, he used far too many exclamation marks and was completely off-topic, he deserved what he got.
Although it is nice to finally see someone getting Shadowmourne
NeoPhobos Mar 17th 2010 12:52AM
Sorry for posting this in two different threads, but it is under a comment given by the same stupid guy for the same stupid comment.
And Mel Brooks is just too good to list only once.
"Wow, congrats...
Allow me to glance over that Armory page.
Hmmmm.... not bad. Now, let me introduce you to the great weapon, "First Critic"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkz83VFEk1A
Hint: skip to 1:02 - 1:53"
Vitos Mar 17th 2010 1:06AM
You know... I think blizzard should change the title of their 'five year anniversary interviews' its closer to six[teen] years now...
Just say...
remlap79 Mar 17th 2010 1:14AM
Ya know I gotta say... GC must have the patience of a saint to put up with all the crap that gets tossed around at him on the forums. That last guy is just totally out of line! I don't always agree with GC's conclusions on things but I can at least be nice about it.
Thanks Ghostcrawler for taking the the abuse.
jurgenomics Mar 17th 2010 2:29AM
I'd like to see warriors be able to control groups of trash without having to wear out their tab key.
Ulrik Mar 17th 2010 4:24AM
What's with the hatred of the tab key? I always tabtarget when tanking packs, no matter if I'm tanking on my 80 geared paladin, my 80 not-so-geared bear or when I was levelling my prot warrior. It's just a good tanking practice.
Now, if you're worried about dps pulling single targets off you, mark a skull (they'll mostly be aoeing/cleaving, so you still need to tab around). After the dps ignores the skull, as they will, and pull another mob off you, then you can really start to bitch. And don't tell them to assist your target, if you're a good tank you should be changing targets all the time. If you want one mob dead, mark it.
Rubitard Mar 17th 2010 2:54AM
Sadly, one mechanic that Blizzard will never fix in-game is the people who play it. You do enough PuGs and you begin to realize that the majority of the WoW-playing populace is incapable of even the most rudimentary group awareness. Sure, some are quite nice folk. However, it seems that all too many are self-centric, arrogant, impatient and argumentative for argument's own sake. If only Blizz could fix that somehow. I guess if I could group up w/ 4 NPCs and take on a 5 man heroic, that would be amazing. Maybe the next expansion after Cataclysm can be just for people who are tired of other people in-game. It'll be called, "Misanthrope!"
shamman22 Mar 17th 2010 5:28AM
Yeah, I agree. I've quite wow for now until cata comes out. I still love the game, but the whole GS, recount, general asshat-edness of the player base was just too frustrating. After a long days work, when I'm trying to relax in my favorite game, I don't want to have to deal with some totally random a-hole, which seems to be about 90% of the player base of late. Before I quit, I had just leveled up a warrior and was starting to gear him the usual route. The amount of BS I got for going into UK with, OMG only lvl 200 items, was unbelievable. If the healer did'nt auto quit the dps were pulling aggro every pull and dying, and then complaining like fools.
Here's a hot tip for dps: If you notice your in a random dungeon with a newer tank, don't expect to run it like he's 6k GS. The other thing that was totally annoying was the dps needing on all the tanking gear. I was in there, obviously in need of tanking gear, and every plate dps was needing on the tanking stuff when it dropped. With so many ppl needing on tanking gear, you'd think their would be no shortage on tanks.
I think its just a result of burnout. All the good players are taking a break until the new content arrives, while all the people who live to ruin the game for others cling on like a cancer. Hopefully cata will bring about a nice break from those types of players for at least the first 6-months or so after it's released.
Anyhow, enough QQ about the complete lack of common courtesy found among the average group of wow players.
I think its just a result of burnout. All the good players are taking a break until the new content arrives, while all the people who live to ruin the game for others cling on like a cancer. Hopefully cata will bring about a nice break from those types of players for at least the first 6-months or so after it's released.
Bain Mar 17th 2010 8:41AM
'all the good players are in icc hard modes' fixed this for you
SamLowry Mar 18th 2010 12:00AM
At first I was going to say that once Cata drops, anyone leveling around 80 wouldn't have to run into the "I just want my 2 frost" raiders who make heroics such a pain...but then I've been leveling through random BC instances and the players I've run into are such flakes it's unbelievable. AFK for 10 minutes, leaving over the least little offense, running ahead of the tank...oy. Such random idiotic crap you have to deal with, and after waiting 45 minutes for a group to form in the first place!
Yep, you're right--who needs it?