The art of pricing

But markets should be protected from undercutters!
Balderdash. Markets are a place where people can sell their goods for any price they want. You're describing collusion between sellers to reduce "lost profits," where every time someone wants to undercut with a new auction, they do so by the smallest possible amount.More often than not, all your competitors will have the same cost that you do, and as soon as they see you commit to an auction, they'll undercut you right back. If everyone is knocking a copper off the next highest auction, they only way to undercut successfully is to try camp the AH and make sure you're always the competitor who has visited most recently. Needless to say, this is a colossal waste of your time, and you would probably make more money per hour doing argent tourney dailies.
The only way to effectively sell your product in a market with a lot of competitors is to undercut by more than just a trivial amount. You need to make it just cheap enough that your competition is less likely to undercut you, but expensive enough that you're still making money.
Undercutting ain't easy
Bear in mind: posting an auction that has a deposit is a commitment. If it returns unsold, you lose a bit of money. If enough auctions come back, you can conceivably lose a lot of money. Be aware of the deposit costs for your items. It's based on the vendor price and auction length. If you're competing with people in a market where each item posted is a risk of several gold, you'll have to be much more careful about the amount you list at the same time. If, however, you're working on something like enchanting mats or scrolls that have no deposit (or glyphs that have virtually no deposit), it costs virtually nothing for people to cancel all their auctions and relist everything below your price.How about a price fixing cartel?
You may think that the simplest and most profitable answer is to come to a gentleman's agreement about how to undercut one another. Price fixing requires people to make sacrifices of personal profits to further the group's profits, and get a thinner slice of a thicker pie.Unfortunately, an individual will do much better when they break these rules. You see, the most profitable course of action when approached by a group of players trying to fix prices is to:
- go along with it and agree to play by their rules
- follow the rules on the characters they know about
- create an alt with which to completely ignore said rules, stealing the largest slice of a larger pie
- replying to their indignant tells and letters with chuck norris jokes
Volume matters
Another common misconception is that people will buy the things they need, no matter how high the price is. There is no such thing as inelastic demand. As prices go down, the number of items bought always goes up. This is true for every type of market out there, and figuring out whether selling more items at a lower cost is more profit than selling less items at a higher cost is an important part of knowing your business.The universal answer to undercutters
If you're being undercut and you don't want to undercut back, don't waste time politely asking your competition to stop undercutting by so much, buy them out! The reality is that many people do have a bad understanding of supply and demand, and will undercut no matter what. If you know for a fact that the demand for your goods outstrips the supply, instead of canceling and relisting your goods or waiting for the competition's auctions to be bought, buy them yourself and relist them. Make sure to send them a thank you note. Sometimes that will get them so riled up that they post a whole bunch of stock under your cost, saving you the trouble of crafting them yourself.(Image courtesy of szlea on Flickr)
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Economy
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Reader Comments (Page 5 of 6)
Basil Berntsen Mar 17th 2010 2:11PM
When I undercut heavily, I make more sales. Evidently, inelastic demand is something that only applies to the real world. I can see that for, you know, toilet paper, but not so much glyphs or gems.
schmO Mar 17th 2010 2:13PM
It doesn't really matter, undercutting will become a thing of the past once people pay extra cash to access the Auction House from the web at any time. Those auctions you picked up for 50% off normal prices? Gone.
In fact, price fixing is most likely going to become the norm. Overall inflation will rise significantly and then normalize to a slightly higher level than exists today. No, the sky is not falling (yet) but the end of the casual profiteer is nigh.
Krem Mar 17th 2010 2:44PM
And what about those idiots who are posting high-quality player-made items for less than the mats cost? I tell you, unless you're a raider, there's no profit to be made with tailoring on my realm. Wanna sell some bags? The mats cost TWO TIMES AS MUCH AS THE BAGS. Wanna sell some armour? Wanna sell some imbued frostweave? Too bad. This is absurd, I tell you! Absurd!
spamofchaz Mar 17th 2010 3:11PM
Netherweave bags cost half the price for a stack of netherweave? That's unfortunate. I make a ton of gold selling NW bags (the ultimate in alt storage!). I buy any cloth that's 5g a stack or less and sell bags for 10g each.
And I'm spoiled too. Since I get enough cloth at those cheap prices, I'm unwilling to settle for anything less than 100% profit!
Samuel Mar 17th 2010 2:47PM
Cartels can work when the resource in question is scarce. This is why OPEC works. Somebody can come in and undercut the OPEC price, but they will simply sell off their available supply and there will be remaining demand that has to pay the cartel price.
Cartels would work with epic gems, titansteel (until the next patch), titanium (before the last patch), and frost lotus (for now - and maybe after the next patch depending on how frozen orbs shake out). A cartel for leather, finished glyphs, armor or weapons would never work, because it is too easy to undercut.
Hëx Mar 17th 2010 2:47PM
I am a major player in the Glyph market on my server, with three dedicated AH toons that keep a full stock of every kind of glyphs in the game on them at all times. I automate almost everything using addons: canceling auctions and re-listing them at undercut prices (Quick Auctions), Pulling them out of the mail (Postal), Buying and Milling Herbs (Auctioneer), Scanning my Stock and creating an Inscription work queue (Auctioneer, Altoholic, Skillet). This takes enough time as it is, I do not have the time to individually price each glyph I post, or even to buyout auctions that are too low for reposting at inflated prices. All my prices are purely market driven, automatically.
Bronwyn Mar 17th 2010 2:57PM
Honestly I'm with you- I undercut (not by a few copper, though) as little as possible, because people who list something at a ridiculously low price end up just bringing down the prices faster because people don't look at what they're undercutting- it's not just about what people buy, it's about how people list, too. If I see something that is really low priced under what I'm about to post, I will buy it and then slightly undercut the person above me.
Now I don't work hard enough at it to make *that* much money but I more than support my huge number of alts and I have money when a vanity item pops up that I want.
Narayana Mar 17th 2010 3:02PM
I think the last point is probably the most telling. I'd bet that most of the people who complain of "under cutters" would be unwilling to buy out the others' stock due to it being "too risky." If that's the case, then they aren't really under-cutting, they are helping the market find equilibrium.
The main issues are:
1) Most people playing the AH aren't just looking for profits, they are looking for HUGE profits.
2) Many pricing decisions are based on ethereal ideas of what the seller thinks the item is worth (whether that be based on guessing, past experience, Wowhead is irrelevant) and not what the buyer is willing to pay.
spamofchaz Mar 17th 2010 3:04PM
Dealing in enchanting mats (no deposit), I don't worry about undercutters. My prices were set all through BC, they adjusted when Wrath came out, but when the market settled, I have my new set of prices that haven't really changed much in 6-8 months.
Most of my auctions sell (if I post 500+ strange dusts at a time, some will come back, of course) so my prices aren't too high. My prices don't seem to be too low, either. I occasionally try to raise the price of something or other and my sales drop off a cliff.
I do get undercut by folks, but for some reason, there is a never ending demand for chanting mats - of all levels - that has given me a very steady income.
I also dabble in gems and since I get my uncuts from the AH (either straight purchases or through saronite ores I buy there) I do watch my costs and my competition. If someone is selling a cut for less than I'm willing to match, yet the price is too high for me to buy/relist, I just wait. I don't post that cut at all and keep checking until the cheap ones are gone and I put mine up. My confidence in these prices has paid off as well since I do eventually sell my gems within 1-3g of my desired price.
Jabadabadana Mar 17th 2010 3:11PM
People buy cut gems?
I have more honor and triumph than I know what to do with, just from doing dailies and helping guildies.
Why would someone ever need to buy cut gems?
There's another issue that people forget in the whole undercutting scheme.
Speed.
I want money Nao! (or possibly before my raid tomorrow) Not in 3 days when I can make a higher profit, but now. Lower I list it, the higher the chance of it being bought before it gets undercut. It may be bought by the guy who spends 2 hours a day mining the auction house, but it will get sold, and I will have money.
(Is this intelligent when someone considers that in the long run with more money I will always have enough money now... no. That doesn't keep myself nor others from doing it.
ggrooms Mar 17th 2010 3:52PM
Only thing I have is the "Buy them out" line. Anyone seriously doing any undercutting will have a stock so large that doing so only costs you more money.
Nick S Mar 17th 2010 4:04PM
Nothing makes me happier than a would-be monopolist buying out my glyphs.
Nick S Mar 17th 2010 4:02PM
I buy a lot of green or blue gems for my alts - gear from BC instances often comes with sockets, and two 16 Agi gems can make a pretty huge difference for a level 62 Shaman.
Voodie Mar 17th 2010 4:08PM
I'm not trying to be all greedy, I personally think no glyph is really worth more than 15-20 when you consider mat cost, discovery time, actual glyph function and all the rest. Honestly, I'd be happy with selling them for 5-10 gold but when someone lists them for less than they costs to actually make and I'd have to price under them to actually sell anything, it's annoying and not worth it.
Herbs on the other hand, sell very well and are easy to farm up if you have some time to kill. Honestly, one of the best ways to make gold in this game is to farm items from classic and BC then list them at reasonable amounts. Oh, and I'm not talking 5gold per single piece of briarthorn, I said reasonable dangit! ^.~
Aedilhild Mar 17th 2010 4:14PM
"You're eventually going to be undercut."
Not if you post at times of high demand or low house activity and discount at a price that penny-chippers will balk at. A narrow profit margin still yields profit.
Your strategy, Tony, is for players who wish to deal in volume and hit the gold cap. The vast majority of players is simply interested in earning more than is paid out in repairs, item enhancements, gear purchases, and crafting materials. These days, emblems and disenchants from runs can easily be turned into epic gems and enchantments — anybody can do it. And when they do it, deeper cuts save time and re-posting costs, both of which are measured in terms of money.
thutch77 Mar 17th 2010 4:27PM
When I was leveling my first toon, I made most of my money by just buying out and re-listing all of the super-cheaply listed tangy clam meat in stacks of 20.
The only problem that I've run into with undercutting is titansteel, but I've never been upset about it. It just makes profit inconsistent. One day it sells for 150g, the next 7 there are 20 listed for 100g. You can't really buyout 20 and relist them because they cost so much to relist and you're probably not going to sell that many before those same people put 20 more back up for 100g.
And yes, I'm the guy who lists for 1 silver less than you do. Why? Because it lists first and I know I buy whatever lists first, so a bunch of other people probably do, as well. At least more of us exist than of those people who scroll down to find the person who didn't sell for 1 silver less than his competitors and buy from him. lol.
psychodude Mar 17th 2010 4:42PM
Undercutting is an issue which MMO gamers have brought upon themselves with their constant desire for having an auction house. You get a single location in which everything is sold, and all sellers want to sell their product without risking the loss of whatever it costs them to place the item up. Solution: Undercut to sell things well.
Sure it might look like you make some less bucks, but on the many items which otherwise go left unsold you do not pay the auction taxes over and over.
Personally I have always preferred the more traditional market within MMO's due to that though, personal shops in which you could play a lot more with price depending on the location where you set up shop. Also undercutters were less of an issue with the few exceptions of those setting up shop right next to you, however definitely not present in such numbers as seen within auction houses.
Such personal shops are much more like a true market. Some might be selling it cheaper, but just like when you go shopping and you're unaware of the shop in the back alley selling it for less the same goes ingame. Whereas an auction house is like an online price-comparing site with as additional bonus all vendors in this case being 'equal'. The cheaper item will not come from a store with a crappy service, as there is no difference in that within WoW. So people will always keep undercutting, as it's just another way of maximizing income even though it's less profit per item.
Fatamorgana Mar 17th 2010 4:48PM
Undercutting? On my server (Moon Guard), the Alliance side has a huge issue with price gouging.
The most famous of these goes by a name reminiscent of a Spider-Man villian.
He/She buys in bulk and then resells at 2x-10x (or more) of the listed price.
I saw this happen on my last server in a similar manner. It starts by buying out lowbie armor (level 20 below) and obtaining a monopoly. Then, as the revenue increases, so does the level range of the gear you buy. Eventually, you're gouging the price of BOEs from newbie levels to end-game gear.
I love playing the auction house, and this kind of competitive auctioneer has done wonders to boost my income as well as he/she will buy out my items and relist them. We both make a profit, so we're happy. The only real issue is for the common player who needs upgrades but can't afford a 45 gold, level 10 green cloth chest piece.
My solution is fair for all, I think. I start my bid low enough for a starting player to afford the item, but leave the buy out between 2-5% of my competitor's buy out.
Granted, I'm the big bad under-cutter, but I've yet to find a better solution that agrees with both the consumers and other Auctioneers. Any suggestions are welcome that can satisfy both.
~Ceyhil of Moon Guard (/waves to Ceyhil of TB)
Dave Mar 17th 2010 5:18PM
This is an amazing troll or self-servicing post meant to get people to do the exact opposite of what you actually hope they do.
Well played.
Too bad only the unintelligent will fall for it and the majority of the people who understand things already are laughing at it.
uncaringbear Mar 17th 2010 5:57PM
It's a fallacy to assume that price fixing or cartels are guaranteed to fail in WoW, or in the real world. There are many, many examples that prove otherwise. Is it legal or ethical? Many governments and individuals think not, but that isn't the issue here. We're talking about doing what it takes to maximize your profits, and as far as I know, there is nothing in the ToS that prohibits these types of activities.
On my realm, several of the more active glyph sellers communicate on a regular basis. Do we actively collude? No, but we certainly share our thoughts on the state of the market and we even share tips and strategies. There is certainly an understanding among us to do everything we can to improve the profits of the group as a whole.
And yes, we mercilessly undercut each other, but the size of the undercuts are always kept to a minimum. We also make a point to buy out glyphs of our competition on a regular basis. The amount of gold I spend each day to buy under-priced glyphs is significant. The biggest threat to the stability of the glyph market are the players who are leveling glyphs and suddenly flood the market with under-priced glyphs. Fortunately, most of those glyphs can be bought up.
Would you rather make 5 gold or 50 gold? When I ask that question to some of the sellers, their response is usually along the lines of "I want to make a quick sell". As in war, and as in selling, if you don't understand the mentality of your opponent, your chances of victory or making a sale is greatly diminished. The buying decision of a glyph buyer should not be confused with that of someone looking to buy a battered hilt or an expensive piece of armour.
The majority of glyph buyers have already made the decision to purchase the glyph(s) that they need. When it comes time to obtain those glyphs, they only care about one thing - getting the cheapest price. If the cheapest price happens to be 4g, they will buy it. If it happens to be 40g, they will buy it. Yes, there are some buyers who will choose not to purchase the 40g glyph, but they are very much in the minority, and do not factor at all.
One final point - the really smart sellers know when NOT to undercut. Sometimes it's better to let the competition get the lower priced sale than to mindlessly undercut them and drive the market price even lower. When the competition prices at a point where it's questionable to buy them out or not, the best choice may be to do nothing.