The Daily Blues

Ghostcrawler went on the internet yesterday, and today he says "I have an exoskeleton of chitin and carbonate that offers ample protection from falling skies as well as forum slings and arrows."
Table of Contents
Ghostcrawler
Ghostcrawler -- Hunter BM clarificationsJudging from a quick perusal of the Internet, my hastily written post up above confused some people. My apologies. The point I was trying to make was that 3.3.3 BM seems pretty close to SV in a lot of cases. We're not going to know more until we see more humans and fewer spreadsheets try it out. Players raid SV today and can be relatively competitive on meters. Therefore hopefully players who like BM can do the same thing. Are all 3 hunter specs within 1% of each other on all gear? No, and I don't think that's a reasonable goal. We'll try to narrow the gap where we can without forcing every player to respec to the whatever the current flavor of the month hotness is or creating balance nightmares in PvP.
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With my current gear, my BM spec trails a SV spec by 7.8% in potential dps. Compared to MM, BM is 13.4% behind. When I plug in the BiS gear in every slot I find BM trailing SV by 8.9% and the gap between BM and MM increases to 16.7%. I also have to add that I did not gem for anything but Agi in any of the specs so the ArP factor is reduced. I only have 426 passive ArP with my gear. Even without massive amounts of ArP, BM still is way behind MM and considerably behind SV as well.
We didn't obviously compare the gear of every hunter out there. We looked at a few different levels of progression and BM is pretty close to SV in a lot of cases. Eurytos up above thinks BM is pretty close to SV, and in fact I'll quote him in a minute. If you're a BM fan I think you can raid as BM in 3.3.3 without utterly embarrassing yourself. Are there hunters out there who can out dps you? Sure. But there would be hunters out there who could beat you even if you were both MM. Any of us can pull out parses where the Elemental shaman or Shadow priest or Blood DK is topping the meters for that particular raid and still making ICC progression. Let's assume BM and SV are 1500-2000 dps behind MM. At that level, the damage is probably close enough where skill and gear are going to have a much greater impact than your spec for most of you.
Is that acceptable for Lich King 25 hard mode? Probably not. But the guilds at that level of progression are obsessed about even minimal dps gains, and they need to be. I'm not sure we can ever balance all 3 specs of a given class to be within 100 or so dps of each other on the most challenging content given that the specs have different mechanics that produce different strengths and weaknesses on different encounters. Balance at the hardest of the hard core is different from balance at the rest of the game, and much of the community would do well to focus less on maximum dps potential with the best gear and focus more on what they themselves can do. BM in 3.3.2 was unacceptably low in PvE. I'm not sure it is now.
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1) BM is still the lowest DPS at any ICC raider gear level.
2) BM still has the highest reliance on the pet for damage and suffers tremendously if it dies or otherwise cannot participate.
3) BM's raid buff is shared by Ret Pally's and Arcane Mage's and only 1 person with it is needed, whereas it's optimal to have 2 sources of replenishment and the only other prominent raiding specs with it are Ret Paladin's and Shadow Priests.
4) Survival offers higher DPS while mobile.
5) Survival has higher survivability.
1) Lowest isn't of particular concern. It's unlikely to ever be a 10-way tie. Magnitude of the haves and the have nots is more important. Subtlety, BM, Arms, Frost and Frost were so far down that it was unreasonable to expect players to raid with them. We buffed them where we thought it was safe without, as I said above, pushing every existing player into that spec or creating PvP problems. It's not a 10 way tie now, but it's closer than it was in 3.3.2, and to be fair, probably closer than it's been at any time in WoW previously.
2) and 4) are legit points in my opinion. Pet reliance is a really sticky wicket, because if we make you rely on the pet, then it's really terrible when you do lose it, and if we don't make you rely on the pet, well that pretty much kills the theme of the tree.
3) You shouldn't be brought for your raid buff. Awesome raid buffs shouldn't be a lever to get an underperforming spec (or player!) into a raid. With very few exceptions the raid buffs are not going to be so significant to make you want to take a bad player over a good one. Sometimes we're tempted to just nerf all of the raid buffs to the 1-2% level in Cataclysm just so players focus more on what's fun and less on raid buffs.
5) I'm going to downplay this one too for the simple reason that I think you guys would dismiss it if I offered it as a reason for why you'd want to play a particular spec (in PvE). Now, personally I think this is a consideration in building your character and I wish we could get more players to care about it because it would give us more tools in developing talent trees etc. You'll see the occasional non-tank who gems a little Stamina to survive fights with tons of raid damage, but for the most part players will take even a tiny dps gain over survivability (in PvE) and just blame the healers (or the designers).
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With my current gear, my BM spec trails a SV spec by 7.8% in potential dps. Compared to MM, BM is 13.4% behind. When I plug in the BiS gear in every slot I find BM trailing SV by 8.9% and the gap between BM and MM increases to 16.7%. I also have to add that I did not gem for anything but Agi in any of the specs so the ArP factor is reduced. I only have 426 passive ArP with my gear. Even without massive amounts of ArP, BM still is way behind MM and considerably behind SV as well.
We didn't obviously compare the gear of every hunter out there. We looked at a few different levels of progression and BM is pretty close to SV in a lot of cases. Eurytos up above thinks BM is pretty close to SV, and in fact I'll quote him in a minute. If you're a BM fan I think you can raid as BM in 3.3.3 without utterly embarrassing yourself. Are there hunters out there who can out dps you? Sure. But there would be hunters out there who could beat you even if you were both MM. Any of us can pull out parses where the Elemental shaman or Shadow priest or Blood DK is topping the meters for that particular raid and still making ICC progression. Let's assume BM and SV are 1500-2000 dps behind MM. At that level, the damage is probably close enough where skill and gear are going to have a much greater impact than your spec for most of you.
Is that acceptable for Lich King 25 hard mode? Probably not. But the guilds at that level of progression are obsessed about even minimal dps gains, and they need to be. I'm not sure we can ever balance all 3 specs of a given class to be within 100 or so dps of each other on the most challenging content given that the specs have different mechanics that produce different strengths and weaknesses on different encounters. Balance at the hardest of the hard core is different from balance at the rest of the game, and much of the community would do well to focus less on maximum dps potential with the best gear and focus more on what they themselves can do. BM in 3.3.2 was unacceptably low in PvE. I'm not sure it is now.
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1) BM is still the lowest DPS at any ICC raider gear level.
2) BM still has the highest reliance on the pet for damage and suffers tremendously if it dies or otherwise cannot participate.
3) BM's raid buff is shared by Ret Pally's and Arcane Mage's and only 1 person with it is needed, whereas it's optimal to have 2 sources of replenishment and the only other prominent raiding specs with it are Ret Paladin's and Shadow Priests.
4) Survival offers higher DPS while mobile.
5) Survival has higher survivability.
1) Lowest isn't of particular concern. It's unlikely to ever be a 10-way tie. Magnitude of the haves and the have nots is more important. Subtlety, BM, Arms, Frost and Frost were so far down that it was unreasonable to expect players to raid with them. We buffed them where we thought it was safe without, as I said above, pushing every existing player into that spec or creating PvP problems. It's not a 10 way tie now, but it's closer than it was in 3.3.2, and to be fair, probably closer than it's been at any time in WoW previously.
2) and 4) are legit points in my opinion. Pet reliance is a really sticky wicket, because if we make you rely on the pet, then it's really terrible when you do lose it, and if we don't make you rely on the pet, well that pretty much kills the theme of the tree.
3) You shouldn't be brought for your raid buff. Awesome raid buffs shouldn't be a lever to get an underperforming spec (or player!) into a raid. With very few exceptions the raid buffs are not going to be so significant to make you want to take a bad player over a good one. Sometimes we're tempted to just nerf all of the raid buffs to the 1-2% level in Cataclysm just so players focus more on what's fun and less on raid buffs.
5) I'm going to downplay this one too for the simple reason that I think you guys would dismiss it if I offered it as a reason for why you'd want to play a particular spec (in PvE). Now, personally I think this is a consideration in building your character and I wish we could get more players to care about it because it would give us more tools in developing talent trees etc. You'll see the occasional non-tank who gems a little Stamina to survive fights with tons of raid damage, but for the most part players will take even a tiny dps gain over survivability (in PvE) and just blame the healers (or the designers).
Ghostcrawler -- Nerfs bro?Falling sky is falling.
--
Are you going to retreat to the sea for safety?
I have an exoskeleton of chitin and carbonate that offers ample protection from falling skies as well as forum slings and arrows.
We haven't announced any new paladin nerfs. It's possible we won't make any changes before Cataclysm. We haven't decided yet.
It works out better, IMHO, if I can be as honest with you guys as I can. If I can't even say "Wer'e worried X might be overpowered" for fear of community freak out, then it just makes it harder to discuss how we think the game is going and you get to find out changes with the patch notes. :(
--
Are you going to retreat to the sea for safety?
I have an exoskeleton of chitin and carbonate that offers ample protection from falling skies as well as forum slings and arrows.
We haven't announced any new paladin nerfs. It's possible we won't make any changes before Cataclysm. We haven't decided yet.
It works out better, IMHO, if I can be as honest with you guys as I can. If I can't even say "Wer'e worried X might be overpowered" for fear of community freak out, then it just makes it harder to discuss how we think the game is going and you get to find out changes with the patch notes. :(
Other
Zarhym -- Operation Gnomeregan levelPlayers of all levels will be able to take part in some form or another. We'll have more details for you as we get a little closer to the event.
Eyonix -- Right to mountsEvery class has access to a mount without having to rely on luck or skill. If a mount drops in a dungeon, the druid has the same right to it as a rogue, or anyone else.
Bahiok -- Minor glyphsI would disagree and say that all of the minor rogue glyphs are pretty decent in one way or another. So maybe this is just a detachment of what people see as useful for their own play style. They're certainly more subjective than "you must have these major glyphs if you're this spec". But I think that's pretty cool, that you can pick and choose the ones that match what you want to do and not have a clear "omg you HAVE to have these or you're a dumb!"
They're quality of life improvements or fun alterations, that's essentially what minor glyphs are.
They're quality of life improvements or fun alterations, that's essentially what minor glyphs are.
Ancilorn -- Community eventsAnother winter full of hardship has passed, and the fires of spring are alight once more! It is soon time to once again reawaken the spirits from their cold slumber, and prepare for another warm and prosperous year to come!
Much has happened since the Orcs first set foot upon Azeroth. During all the wars that have scarred the earth, many traditions have been forgotten and forsaken. The Red Blade tribe, however, strives to make the Kosh'harg one tradition that is reawakened once again for the entire orcish race, for the Horde, and for the blood of our ancestors!
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=12900000763
If you have any in-game events you'd like to bring to the Community's attention, please be sure to post up the details of the event in the Events and Fan Creations forum.
http://forums.wow-europe.com/board.html?forumId=110221
Much has happened since the Orcs first set foot upon Azeroth. During all the wars that have scarred the earth, many traditions have been forgotten and forsaken. The Red Blade tribe, however, strives to make the Kosh'harg one tradition that is reawakened once again for the entire orcish race, for the Horde, and for the blood of our ancestors!
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=12900000763
If you have any in-game events you'd like to bring to the Community's attention, please be sure to post up the details of the event in the Events and Fan Creations forum.
http://forums.wow-europe.com/board.html?forumId=110221
Blizzard
- Battle.net blue updates
- Blizzard wants you to get a friend into the StarCraft 2 beta
- World of Warcraft: Arthas nominated for Scribe 2010 Awards
- Battle.net to end noob stomping
Filed under: The Daily Blues






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Dreyja Mar 18th 2010 11:47PM
Marry Me Ghostcrawler?
Dreyja Mar 20th 2010 7:32AM
you all may think I'm kidding but I totally LOVE THIS MAN! ;-p
Ok... I'm not a stalker but I think he is TEH BOMB. :-p
Hivetyrant Mar 19th 2010 12:00AM
GC is right to discuss the possible Pally nerf.
Better to bring it up now and get a feel for how the community thinks, than to try and take on the backlash of a thousand angry nerds when a pally nerf just appears in the next patch notes with no warning!
Al Mar 19th 2010 5:15AM
You're forgetting - paladin nerfs usually get hot-fixed in or they "forget" to add them to the patch-notes, which just exasperates matters.
CM Mar 19th 2010 6:26AM
Yeah but it's like we (prot paladins) are waiting for the other shoe to drop. He keeps posting about how our AoE tanking is "too good" and they aren't going to buff the other tank classes so we know a nerf is coming but have no details about how it will happen.
Stealth nerfs or major class changes aren't cool when they just suddently show up but this situation is just as bad.
Obeyfez Mar 19th 2010 9:05AM
GC: "Wer'e worried X might be overpowered" for fear of community freak out, then it just makes it harder to discuss how we think the game is going and you get to find out changes with the patch notes. :(
For better or worse, GC has become the Ben Bernanke of Blizzard. His words are reviewed with a fine tooth comb and like the WoW community freaking at a hinted nerf, the US economic market freaks out at a hint of an interest rate hike (or some other similar bad news when BB speaks for the Fed).
I honestly don't understand the point of nerfing Prot Pally's AOE threat/damage. Are raid leaders taking Pally's over other tanking classes due to their good AOE threat/damage for TRASH in ICC? I don't think anyone would argue that Pally's have no benefit over any of the other tanking class against any of the BOSSES in ICC. So what's the big deal? Prot Pally's have always been good at AOE threat, its kind of our thing.
Wowcoholic Mar 19th 2010 10:53AM
The AoE tank issue is one of those things that kinda bothers me from a dps stand point. I know when I'm grouped with a pally tank that it's ok to open up the AoEness and burn the trash, and I also know that it's not as easy to do with a non-pally tank. I think IT SHOULD BE UP TO THE DPS to understand the strength and weakness of their grouped tank class, and not lash out at them when they can't hold multiple target agro through blizzards and hurricanes and seeds of corruption.... There's nothing wrong with single target incineration! You don't need to stroke your max dps epeen in heroics...
Say it with me now: Situational Awareness.....It saves lives!
vanye111 Mar 19th 2010 11:28AM
The community reply to any discussion of nerfs is almost always 90% rage, 10% "I can see why that might be needed"
:-P
Bernie Roscoe Mar 20th 2010 1:59PM
Needing paladins is regrettably necessary.
devilsei Mar 19th 2010 12:13AM
Whoa whoa whoa, lets not bust out the nerf bat on the ret pallies now peeps!
Sorry, just natural instinct... I've been playing ret for a few years and I'm getting used to most any good ret pally news has some ball-kicking news right afterwards that no amount of bubble-hearthing will keep us safe from.
As for that Beta thing, it sucks. No one I know is even in the beta, and they have all these beta keys laying about that they can't even throw one out to me?
Fletcher Mar 19th 2010 12:43AM
From what I've read (mostly in the daily blues here) it's more prot pallies, and prot pally AOE tanking in particular, that they're concerned about. I kinda have to agree with them there, and I have a prot pally.
Angus Mar 19th 2010 12:54AM
It's not even a ret nerf.
People are bitching over tankadins being too good ON TRASH and Heroics.
Because we all know that everyone cares about trash more than the boss.
What gets me is that warriors are doing the lion's share of it. Once upon a time I used to tank all the trash and hold on to everything while the warrior in our guild held on to the worst of them. Then for the boss I was either DPS or add duty. I know several guilds where this is the case. Blizzard even says that warriors are the most common main tank. So they want to nerf the spot tankadins excel at because seal of cleave and HoR work too well together on trash? yeesh.
When my wife's bear isn't tanking ALL of a heroic with the swipe key taped down they can tell me tankadins are too good at trash.
MazokuRanma Mar 19th 2010 1:30AM
Hadn't you heard, bro? Forebearance now also prevents the use of your Hearthstone for 30 seconds as well! ;p
Ilimra Mar 19th 2010 10:38AM
Ghostcrawler is too hard!!!!!11 Even the best geared whiners in the game cant take him down. His exoskeleton of chitin and carbonate is far too OP. I SWEAR IF HE DOESNT GET NERFED IM QUITTING THIS CRAPPY GAME!!!
Stevocurrie@gmail.com Mar 19th 2010 2:24AM
I play a prot pally and I think it's dumb they wanans nerf us. Angus has a freaking good point. We might be op on TRASH. So... It's not like we have more survivability then any other tank. So why does it matter? Warriors have tons of nifty tricks to gather everone up, and bring casters to them. Pally's only have one. So maybe nerf our aoe ability and give us a 2nd silence.
I still would hate it cuz even as a pally some stupid boomkin kept peeling ppl off me with his 20k starfires. It wasn't cool. but it proves we CAN have trash peeled off us.
Don't nerf pally's buff warriors. Idk how to tank with a warrior, but if they have anything like holy shield which they should have up all the time, make thunderclap auto crit when it is up. I think it has a CD so they couldn'tjust spam it. Maybe even increase the Cd so it could only be used once a pull (20sec would probably do it.)
Animalis Mar 19th 2010 3:25AM
If DPS FF they WILL pull of any other tank. Only in the most lopsided of groups will a pali lose agro.(Low gear pali vs High geared DPS)
AlmtyBob Mar 19th 2010 5:19AM
You must have missed his other posts about AoE tanking. It's not that you're just overpowered as an AoE tank, it's that it takes so little effort to do it. Pally tanks rarely have to break the 969 rotation to hold mobs on them and god forbid they actually have to TAB once in a while. When faced with competent DPS no two pulls in a given run are going to go down exactly the same for a warrior. We might have a priority queue but the targets we choose, whether we cleave or HS, do I charge the caster or throw at him, lining targets for shockwave, etc, all make warrior tanking involve some serious interaction and decision making.
There's two mostly separate issues here:
1. Warriors dps and multi-target threat don't keep up with equally geared DPS'ers in high item levels.
2. Paladins (and to a large extent DKs) very rarely even consider threat. I don't care if a pally gets chosen over me on a boss with adds that need to be tank if he actually has to have some skill and put forth some effort to hold them.
As a side note: For all the warriors who complain about threat in heroics. Look at the damage meters; your healer is probably DPS'ing because he has nothing better to do. Throw on some DPS gear so your threat jumps up and your healer has something to do.
netty Mar 19th 2010 5:27AM
I thought the point of a nerf to AoE tanking was to allow for the possibility of challenging trash pulls again - ones where folks might want to consider some CC, or where a kill order was a useful tactic again.
Not for every trash pull, sure, but for some - just to keep things interesting.
Because things are moronically dull for dps at the moment. Tank AoE pulls, DPS AoE spam, and the only challenge is staying awake through the monotony.
I've stopped playing my bear (my main through BC) because there's no point logging on just to repeatedly press one button. So yeah, I'd love AoE tanking (including swipe) to be nerfed, because I'm getting too "interest starved". Maybe prot pallies don't feel this - never played a pally so don't know if generating AoE threat is a rewarding and interesting challenge for them.
Maybe it just comes down to some folks being the type who love cheat-code like imbaness, and other folks enjoying exercising their skill. Nerfing AoE tanking would certainly upset the first crowd, while finally giving the second something to be happy about.
Kurick Mar 19th 2010 7:38AM
Hmmm pally aoe too effortless....well considering (as another poster stated), bears spam ONE key for their aoe, i would consider that a little one sided - to be looking at pallys and not bears too, esp as most pallys would be using their 696969 rotation (utilising 5 buttons) to maximise threat - and even tabbing around for aggro.
Being a prot pally im not entirely sure i can disagree tho (being honest). But i think theres another aspect noone seems to consider. Let me start by asking a question of all the DPS out there. When you want to do you daily random dungeon - how long does it take? And why? If your answer was not '10-20 minutes' and 'due to tank shortage' then tbh i wouldnt believe you.
If people make tanking harder - already the most stressful of the roles imho - we will have less tanks. Want to see that timer go to 20-30 min? No? Then i would suggest buffing other tanks, rather than nurfing pallies. I doubt there will be any 'correct' solution, as to make things easier means some wont play, but to make things harder will cause even more to quit. Making things more interesting is a good idea, but the details will be hard to work out without emo nurd rages by a lot of people. Personally i would maybe suggest changing the seals for prot pallys. If HotR and SoC is too powerful, change it so SoV is more useful, reducing aoe threat but as a relatively minor change, or possibly making the dynamics change to make other seals more useful for them. Nurf mana regen so SoW is almost obligatory is another suggestion - oh and no i havent thought any of these through so im sure there will be some major problems with some of them, these are just examples off the top of my head as to how the objective could be achieved without any major nurf. Please no more 'To the Ground, baby' nurfs.
Sinthar Mar 19th 2010 8:18AM
@ Stevocurrie
erm id change ure email - or at least your wow.com site name :)
@AlmtyBob
Pallys rarely break their 6969 rota anyhow. After all what would we break it with. I simply taunt any breakaways. If that doesnt work - i try to hop (bop) the target of the mob. After that i can chuck my shield at it, other than that im screwed, so it all very well saying we dont break our rotation to control mobs, but we have very few tools to control breakaways with. esp when u consider that we will be in a pack - and trying to run after a mob - as pallys are SO good at range (sorry sarcasm got the better of me) - is usually tantamount to suicide. (Here ill run after one mob and let the other 7 pound on my back with no avoidance or mitigation). Ironically enough ive practiced making sure i DONT lose aggro - tis my job after all as a tank - by proactively using Hos on the dps thats just too much for my aggro, marking targets, tabbing to the mob with the smallest margin of aggro etc etc