The Care and Feeding of Warriors: But hitting buttons is fun!

Honestly, believe it or not, I'd actually like to talk about DPS today. My current raiding guild has between three and four regular tanks who show up for most every 25 man raid. As you might expect, you don't need three to four tanks for ICC. At this point in the raid's life cycle, if you have two tanks you can get through most everything except Putricide and maybe Blood Princes. (We have used two tanks and a DPS for this fight, but we usually use our feral tank for it, so three tanks.) Marrowgar at this point can be done by two geared tanks and a plate DPS standing up there mashing away, although to play it safe we usually just use three.
So last night, after tanking Sindragosa, I got to DPS on Arthas, which is fun for a warrior. (Ah, Glyph of Cleaving, you make up for the mechanical deficiencies of my class.) Then I went and did some stupid fun heroics with a warrior tank, arms warrior, another fury warrior and a resto druid who kept healing in bear form. (I know they can't cast healing spells in bear form. He'd occasionally pop out and throw a HoT on folks. It was pretty much all we needed.) So it wall all sorts of DPS warrior fun last night.
And then I went and read this endlessly exploding threat on tanking and now I have to talk about it. Why? Well, first off, Ghostcrawler mentions Monte Cook. That hits all of my nerd buttons. (If only you'd thrown in a plug for Kingmaker, Greg.) Secondly, we both hated the old Shield Block mechanic and we both hate the current Heroic Strike one.
Ghostcrawler - Re: Just get rid of dodge and parry altogetherI understand your point, but I hated old Shield Block. It was always the right button to push whenever it came off cooldown. It wasn't an interesting decision – there was no point in saving it for the right moment and no penalty for using it at the wrong time. It's okay to have some relatively spammy buttons, but old Shield Block crossed the line (and current Heroic Strike still does).
If you don't hate how Heroic Strike works in tanking, you're not tanking on a warrior. Essentially, once you've used everything else (which you will have) if you have rage it should be going into Heroic Strike. I have it macro'd so that I never have to use the ability, it's just autofiring off of several other moves, because if I didn't and I had to actually queue the ability my fingers would shatter like glass and I'd be tanking with stumps right now. Hell, Heroic Strike sucks as a DPS move, too. But at least there are times when you won't be pummeling the button as if it were the tulpa of every humiliation you ever experienced in your life.
Ghostcrawler - But hitting buttons is fun!If you don't think Shield Block is interesting enough today, that's a fine discussion to have. I'm a little surprised to see any nostalgia for the old model though. Hitting a relatively common dps button that plays into other talents and abilities is one thing. Having to constantly mash "make me slightly more survivable" is another. I'll grant you that it was fun on Illidan, but it took that mechanic specifically to make it fun.
Imagine how you'd react to this scenario:
GC: Good news, everyone! We lowered the cooldown of Shield Wall to 5 sec and balanced assuming you hit it every 5 sec.
Tanks: Um.... Thanks? Could you maybe just make it a passive at that point?
GC: But hitting buttons is fun!
Imagine how you'd react to this scenario:
GC: Good news, everyone! We lowered the cooldown of Shield Wall to 5 sec and balanced assuming you hit it every 5 sec.
Tanks: Um.... Thanks? Could you maybe just make it a passive at that point?
GC: But hitting buttons is fun!
I will be honest with you here. The second I read this, I knew it was going to be the title of this post.
Frankly, I think I'm on record as not always being supportive of Blizzard's design philosophy or goals. I don't subscribe to the notion that the development of the game is some sort of sacred cow that can't be criticized or what have you. But every so often the stars align and there is a moment where they and I become conjoined at the soul, and this is one of those times. No, Shield Block wasn't fun in the old days. No. It was not. I tanked back then too, I tanked Rag, I tanked Nef, I tanked the Twin Emps and C'Thun and the original Four Horsemen and Anub'arak back when you actually needed Nature Resist to tank him and up through Kara, Gruul, Mag, TK, SSC, Hyjal, BT, even Sunwell... no. No. No no no no no!
There was nothing fun about an ability that required absolutely no thought. Shield Block was up, you used it. The only time you ever saved it for anything was Shear. An ability that requires no thought on the part of the player is not a fun ability. We're not drinking bird toys here or metronomes. It's fine to have abilities that you'll weave into your rotation on a fairly regular basis... an arms DPS warrior is going to be hitting Overpower and Rend fairly often and not constantly analyzing whether or not he should, it's true... but Shield Block totally stepped over that line. I admit, I was used to it. We all were. But amazingly, being used to something doesn't make it good. I can still remember the first time I stepped into Kara and had to pray for Shield Block to keep me from getting crushed by Prince Malchezaar's Thrash ability. Remember Crushing Blows? Remember having to rely on Shield Block to get to uncrushable?
I'm going to admit that as a tank, I go out of my way to make sure I stay alive. I value threat stats. Indeed, I value threat stats more than most people (you will never ever see a post from me arguing that threat doesn't matter now, that you shouldn't gear for it, I've repeatedly argued just the opposite) but in the end I gear to stay alive. I gear for armor and stamina over avoidance because armor and stamina are more reliable. I'm not a gambler. Higher armor means less damage taken. Higher stamina means more damage can be taken. A streak of dodges or parries is great, but it's not reliable. Blocking an attack is fine, but ultimately a block is (currently, we all know it's going to change in Cataclysm) is functionally just mitigation with an annoying avoidance-like mechanic. Sometimes you mitigate some damage, sometimes you don't! Roll the dice!
But one of the flip sides to random abilities like avoidance mechanics is that their random nature tends to balance out with a much more potent effect. Sure, armor is always there. It always reduces how much damage you take. But if you dodge, you take no damage at all. Taking no damage at all is pretty sweet for a tank. So while I don't stack dodge, I don't avoid it, either. The idea that dodge and parry should be removed from the game is silly: randomization is what allows us to have doubt about the outcome of an encounter. Having doubt about the outcome of an encounter is part of the gameplay, it's what causes us to have to learn strats, make appropriate gear choices (and upgrade our gear) and use our abilities in the proper place and time to help the group as a whole overcome an obstacle.
Old Shield Block and current Heroic Strike are prime examples of abilities you almost never have to put that kind of effort into. Shield Block in the days of Crushing Blows and HS now are boring because there's no thought, you just spam them. Spamming an ability without doing anything else is the definition of boring. As I said to my arch-nemesis Ziebart the Destroyer this week as we were locked in battle over the yawning chasm deep within his stygaian pit of darkness, yes, hitting buttons is fun. But hitting the same button over and over again isn't, unless you happen to be a rat with electrodes hooked up to the pleasure center of your brain.
In short: hitting buttons is fun, when they're the right buttons, and not just the same buttons all the time. Gearing for mitigation/stamina is a fine choice but if you don't have to make choices then what's the point? We may find randomization annoying and work to minimize our having to rely on luck, and that's a fine and good choice. (I hate luck.) But asking for luck to be taken out of the game or asking for abilities that require no strategy or tactics to use (hit me over and over again to avoid being smashed into paste!) just doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
Filed under: Warrior, (Warrior) The Care and Feeding of Warriors
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 4)
Matthew Rossi Mar 19th 2010 2:48PM
I'm sure you move out of defiles beautifully with both hands completely busy at all times.
Gratia Mar 19th 2010 2:53PM
i move out just fine. i have 5 fingers on both of my hands i don't need more than 2 to move. thank you god, for giving me monkey hands and a brain.
Matthew Rossi Mar 19th 2010 2:57PM
Macroing HS doesn't hurt anyone's threat. Hell, macroing HS and Cleave doesn't hurt anyone's threat. No one has ever lost threat because they don't have to spam an on next melee strike ability. That's why the macro exists. I prefer to have my house hand free for movement and camera control. You don't, that's fine, but acting like hitting a button every second somehow improves your tanking ability is just silly elitism from someone who, frankly, barely even types coherently. I have a hard time imagining you hit that HS button reliably when shift and caps lock are beyond you.
Gratia Mar 19th 2010 3:09PM
I apologize for my poor use of the written English. Let me change my comment here to be more about myself and less about others.
I have found a fun way to play with the current Heroic Strike mechanics. I feel this lets me play the class to it's initially intended style. I understand and feel the boredom that comes out of button spamming, but also enjoy meeting those demands to play at my best. Though, Heroic Strike is spam ability, it still has a certain complexity because of its swing timer mechanics. It feels like I am playing music when I tank, and I wonder if any others are like that, and enjoy it the same way.
blong988 Mar 19th 2010 2:47PM
"Honestly, believe it or not, I'd actually like to talk about DPS today."
Oh really? YES!!! PLEASE!! Maybe I can finally get some tips to fix my lagging fury dps. Maybe I will learn something about the arm pen vs. str gemming thing which still confuses the hell out of me..
....Or maybe it will be a huge rant about the old shield block. Dps indeed. Thanks Rossi. I like your writing style, but its beginning to annoy me how all you seem to do is casually infer how freaking easy everything is until we all feel dumb about asking questions.
I would LOVE a better breakdown of DPS warrior strats. Have you noticed that it exists NOWHERE on the internet? Save for a couple thousand page long threads on EJ or the official forums, confused fury warriors have nowhere to go to learn how to NOT suck!
Please help us Rossi! After that you can go back to whining about tanking in BC, i promise!
Matthew Rossi Mar 19th 2010 2:54PM
"Maybe I will learn something about the arm pen vs. str gemming thing which still confuses the hell out of me.."
What in particular confuses you about it? Gem for str up until you start being at about 50% Armor Penetration through gear alone, especially if you have an Armor Pen proc trinket like Grim Toll, Mjolnir Runestone or Needle Encrusted Scorpion as gearing for passive armor pen past that point reduces the effectiveness of those trinket's proc. The most passive ArP you have, the better gemming for ArP becomes until you hit exactly 1400 ArP rating, which is 100% passive. Once you're at that point, gem for Str again as long as it won't drop you below it. If you are at 100% passive ArP you don't want an ArP proc trinket. Get something like a Greatness, a Deathbringer's Will (which will probably be pushing your ArP rating anyway, hard to imagine you having 100% passive without one) or a Death's Verdict.
"I would LOVE a better breakdown of DPS warrior strats. Have you noticed that it exists NOWHERE on the internet? Save for a couple thousand page long threads on EJ or the official forums, confused fury warriors have nowhere to go to learn how to NOT suck!"
I'm not really sure what you mean by 'strat' here. Do you mean rotations? How to gear? How to approach a specific fight? I talked about fury a lot in http://www.wow.com/2010/02/05/the-care-and-feeding-of-warriors-fury-101/ but if there's a specific need you'd like me to cover I'd need more details. What are you having trouble with?
Killik Mar 19th 2010 4:53PM
Tankspot's also a fairly good place to look for that kind of stuff. eg, their Fury guide is nice: http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?57781-Wotlk-Fury-Warrior-Guide
It's pitched less nerdy than EJ, less confusing than the official forums.
lumacman Mar 19th 2010 3:05PM
honestly I'm conflicted here. start the flames guys. I liked the old shield block. back when you tanked then there was a far more orderly if you will. Kara, the prince for example, tanking him was one of the more challenging encounters i have ever faced as a prot warrior. it required you to be on you toes as a warrior and balance the global cooldown vs threat and protective skills. yes you had to ensure that shield block was always up every time it could be or you were dead, but that to me was the challenge. you had to be precise, you had to think fast, and you had to have some luck. the tanking rotation while spammy was not chaotic as it today in wrath.
but here we are now. looking forward to seeing how block will change. i would like to see shield block be exactly just that. a block. as in all damage BLOCKED. now i know that this would be not easy to pull off without something to balance it. I liked the combo point idea that was mentioned. how about tiring in sunder armor/devastate to the ability. so fir example
shield block
will block 1 physical attack for 20% per stack of sunder armor applied to players selected target. useing shield block will consume 2 stacks of sunder armor and make the target immune to sunder armor for 15 seconds. 10 sec cool down. Threat is proportional to the damage blocked and it a high threat ability.
the idea here is that you do not simply spam block you keep sunder/devastate up but when you are low on health/know a big hit is coming/intercept another player and block the hit, you do this and you stop the damage. if you have 5 stacks. you can use the ability again after 10 seconds but you are only gonna get a 60% block. because the two stacks you used up to fire the ability cant be refreshed for a few more seconds due to the mob being immune to further sunders.
you will still have to manages your sunders and in fact you will need to do it more as now you are consuming them to block. no more just sunder em up and devastate and forget about it. this would be cool i think but I'm no wow dev.
blong988 Mar 19th 2010 3:05PM
Yes thank you, thats exactly what i was trying to figure out about arm pen. So...if i have the needle encrusted scorpion, I don't take into consideration the proc when Im calculating my passive armor pen?
Also, yes, I am talking about rotations. I've seen some basic videos that just say bloodthirst, whirlwind...wait a sec heroic strike. That cant be all there is to it though.
In regards to the heroic strike thing. I currently have HS macro'd to many of my other dps abilities. Is this stupid?
Thanks for the quick response, not to sound too critical.
Shrike Mar 20th 2010 6:08AM
Passive means always-on, therefore a calculation of a passive value would never include procs.
blong988 Mar 19th 2010 3:08PM
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Greymane&cn=Bsides
gonna go ahead and throw up the armory link with the hopes somebody can tell me what im doing wrong!
Holgar Mar 19th 2010 3:22PM
Besides your name? Assuming your tanking heroics here, Toss imp blood rage, focused rage, anger managment, safeguard, Tactical mastery.
Get gag order, improved defensive stance, improved charge, improved disciplines and in 3.3 improved revenge.
Tankin Mar 19th 2010 4:30PM
@Holgar: Until you have someone named something like "Imagaypally" in a pink dress and a helm like the Southsea Head Bucket dancing around you, don't knock the names. :P
@Blong988: There's a few things you can change, like Holgar mentioned, although I've seen (and had) discussions about the relative use of Focused Rage. If you visit http://www.wowpopular.com/Protection/Talents/Warrior you can see the most common builds that they've parsed from the armory. From my experience, "Build 1" has been the best all around build developed and I believe was mentioned by Ghostcrawler in reference to the "standard" build just so warriors would have enough threat.
Glaras Mar 19th 2010 4:17PM
"So while I don't stack dodge, I don't avoid it, either."
I see what you did there.
blong988 Mar 19th 2010 5:05PM
but i was talking about my dps build!
Killik Mar 19th 2010 5:17PM
You have more hit than is strictly optimal - if you can find an alternative to the Mark of Supremacy it might be beneficial. You also have an attack power gem in one of your weapons. I'm sure you're aware of this though, as you do seem to know what you're doing with caps etc.
You could get pretty close to the Arp cap with exclusively gemming it and your trinket proc. But short of plugging your character into a spreadsheet myself I can't tell you if that's a DPS increase for you.
As an aside, I favour picking up decent yellow +Str socket bonuses by gemming hit + Str
Caveat: I am far from being an expert.
Killik Mar 19th 2010 5:18PM
ha. I am an idiot - I meant to say gemming for +Str and +crit, not +hit :p
Kurdon Mar 19th 2010 6:17PM
I actually have mixed emotions about abilities that are off the GCD and/or can be queued. Being the kind of player that hates to be limited to a 1.5 second cycle for his abilities (and has often considered playing a rogue alt for that reason), I find myself thankful for options like Shield Block, Shield Bash, HS, Cleave, Spell Reflect and Bloodrage because they afford me the opportunity to hit/queue something in between my normal GCD-triggering abilities. Granted, HS is a poor example for tanking because it's macro'd into my Devastate/Revenge actions, but it still applies in the case of Arms and Fury.
Rialle Mar 19th 2010 10:29PM
It looks like Blizzard wants to make warrior tanks as brainless as the other classes. I'm somewhat worried about the direction they are taking things because as of right now, the warrior is the ONLY class in the game that engages me at all. Making it as brain dead as the others will severely destroy the game for me.
We have already lost:
- Stance dancing to get out of fear.
- Use of shield block to avoid crushing blows.
- Managing cooldowns.
Now they want to change heroic strike, which is just about the only challenge left in the toolbox that has separated a good warrior tank from a so-so one. They seem hell-bent on making us into one-button-wonders, it seems.
I really don't know what to say. I am sure most of the people who play the game will welcome any change that makes getting epics even easier, so I am in the minority here when I say that I would like to see the game's mechanics work more like they did in classic.
Fletcher Mar 20th 2010 1:45AM
The solution is simple. Macro heroic strike so it causes a jolt of pure, unadulterated delight to surge through your brain, as if a kitten had just given you a hug.
... What, you don't run WoW on your grey matter? What is this, the 21st century?