This is the same system that we use for our guild runs too. No one likes having a guildie win multiple drops in one night while someone else who could have used it for main spec gets nothing. We do have a stipulation that probably most groups have though and that is that main spec is always better than off spec regardless of how many pieces they've already won.

Yeah, this is the easiest and fairest way with PUG players. One epic per run, if no one wants an item and you've already won something you can roll. It is equally fair to PUGs and guildies and it prevents anyone from getting most of a night's loot.

my guild also had this setup.
However, we usually had people who were "honorary members" who ran with us all the time. They were pugnotpugs, if you catch my meaning.
my advice would be to try and find some people like this. Either alts of friends who can raid with you, or just people who can't raid with their guilds, but don't want to leave them.

I stay unguilded because I hate loot drama, and all the crap that goes along with it. I will probably never see LK, but I've gotten to Sind in a pug (Its freaky its that easy...)

Loot caps are a bad idea.

If there is a loot cap, lets say 1 Piece main spec. You recruit my DK to tank. I win Bryntoll (I wish... lost rolls on that 6 times now :( ) right off the bat.

Why would I hang around after that? Yes, there is gear I need, but if I can't win it, why would I stay? Because I want to be nice and boost people? No thanks. Need badges? Kinda... but the average rate I get them in pugs in a bit lackluster sometimes.

So ya. I'm a jerk. I'll drop group. Or feign a DC in trash so its not as obvious.

The easiest way is just to use a /roll.

Yes, some guy might get 3 things, and another guy none, but over time, odds are that it will all work out fairly. The guy who got 0 items last time, might be the one to get 3 the next time.

/roll is a good way to keep pugs in.
Reserved loot, loot caps, wierd priority systems, those are all ways to ensure you spend more time looking for members than actually downing bosses.

I will add, 1 exception is if I am looking to just see content. I will probably join a raid at some point to see LK, where I offer to pass on all loot, just because I want to get to do it once before cata.

Just keep in mind, pugs are there for the loot. Not because they care about you. Not because they want to help you. We are here for the loot. Plan accordingly, and things will go well.

@ Alden:

Believe it or not, there are still some people (pugs included) who are decent enough to stick around with a group when they've won what they wanted to help those who helped them get the loot. I used to be an officer in a guild that routinely brought pugs, and the vast majority of them were decent people.

If I were still in the position of taking in pugs to raids I'd be perfectly happy to run the risk of a few selfish pugs dropping. I'd make sure they were never invited to my guild raids again. Reputation works both ways you know.

I imagine the people who drop out of pug raids early are the same people who bail on 5 mans. Thank god they made the ignore list longer.

@Bubble

Thanks for the heads up about the ignore list. No idea it was longer now. That makes me happy. A few less anal's in chat.

You seem to be slightly close-minded and judemental about how to play wow. You like to hang around in raids, even if you are not going to get any loot. You enjoy playing that way, and thats awesome! If thats what you enjoy, I'm not going to say you're not a "decent" player.

Its kind of mean, though, to say I'm not "decent" just because I play for different reasons than you. You play to socialize. I play to get gear. Why is your way "decent" and my way "bad"? Thats not very kind.

I'm just letting people know, that there are people in pugs, like me, who enjoy playing for gear. I'm not saying my way is good, and yours is bad. I'm just letting RL's know about one type of player, so hopefully they can take that personality into account, plan accordingly and have a successful raid.

Just be aware, some puggers are just there for loot, and figure out a system that is going to keep them around that way your raid goes off as best as possible!

This.

Just do a /roll main spec or /roll offspec if no one needs the item AND apply loot caps, so everyone gets something. Also, if your guildies are looking for specific gear, make clear before starting the run that your guild will have priority on that loot.

This system works wonders when we have to pug someone for 10 mans.

@ Alden:

If you find a pug that is comfortable with you dropping after you get your loot, that's cool by me. However, most pugs operate on the assumption that people will stick around for a few hours. If it's a raid like ToC, the assumption is that everyone will stay til Anub dies. In ICC the assumption is that everyone will stay until either the raid is called or it is clear the pug cannot progress beyond the point they are at.

If you enter a pug with a one win rule and let them believe you will stick it out until the raid is over, then yeah you're the type of person I don't want to spend time with much. If you didn't like the rule you shouldn't have joined a pug with those loot rules.

I'd have the same opinion of someone who dropped out of a pug raid 20 minutes in (unless he had a reasonable expectation it would only take 20 min). If someone says they will tank/dps/heal a raid, then I stop looking for that spot. If they are upfront and say "I can tank for 20 min, but I have to go to work after that" or "I'll tank until I get the loot I want" I would have passed and kept looking for someone else. If someone leads me to believe otherwise and then bails, leaving me in the lurch, yes I will absolutely make a judgment about that person's character, and refuse to run with them again.

@Alden: Judgemental? The guy who flat says he'd drop group after he gets his loot is calling someone who thinks that sucks, "judgemental"? Wow, you are a piece of work.

Someone ever did that on my runs, I'd not only note his name for the ban list, but I'd be talking about it to the other RLs I know. I don't care how good you are, you'd find the pickings getting slimmer and slimmer. Except for the RLs I know who don't have any problem using you to get some ground covered in raids, only to pull the "one-man loot council" and give loot to their friends. *They* would probably love to have you along.

Watch out when it comes to not giving crap pugs loot that they win rolls on.

Was leading a Marrowgar25 pug, caster dps ring drops. Winner did 2.4k dps, second highest did 8k. I rightfully gave it to the second highest as the winner was just bad bad bad.

Then his guild labelled me a ninja. Whut.

@downraters

1) I am no saying the way I play is right or wrong, or your way is good or bad. I don't really care what gives you your jollies.
2) I am no advocating dropping raids after getting loot.

What I AM doing, is telling you the way I think, and a lot of others too, so people who are interested in leading raids (thats who reads this column, right?) can understand someone who thinks a little differently then them, and use this information to help you organize a raid that won't fall apart on the second wipe on deathwhisper.

/facepalm

Are you guys really not reading? I'm trying to help you become a better raid leader, not insult you, belittle you, or tell you my way of playing is the right way.

You might not play like me. You might not even like me. But the fact is there are a decent population of players who think like I do, and so, in a random 25 man pug, you will probably get a few. I am trying to help you understand, that way you can raid with people who are different than you successfully.

Short version of what I've said: Use /roll for pugs. Everyone feels they have a chance at loot, so are more likely to stay with each successive wipe instead of getting fed up, and thinking, "Screw this, I can't win anything anyway."

@ Alden

Here are some of the symptoms of sociopathy:

not learning from experience
no sense of responsibility
inability to form meaningful relationships
inability to control impulses
lack of moral sense
chronically antisocial behavior
no change in behavior after punishment
emotional immaturity
lack of guilt
self-centeredness

Any of this look familiar?

@arcter

That is both irrelevant to the conversation, and very hurtful.

I hope wow.com staff will delete both your comment, and this one, so people don't have to read it.

@arcter

The modern day version of a Sociopath is the Fuckwad. As explained in this illustration:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/3/19


The creation of the Fuckwad is such:

Normal Person+Anonymity+Audience=Total Fuckwad

example: Alden

@Alden- since you're doing something that is more than a little jerky, I think the judgment is more than accurate, and one you brought upon yourself. Also, you're not thinking it through- you still get to roll if no one who hasn't won something wants something, so there is still a chance you'd get another piece of loot.

The way you play is the HEIGHT of selfishness, and honestly, is not cool. Period. And believe it or not there are plenty of people who WILL stick around, whether for emblems or for the off chance that they'll get to roll on another piece because everyone has won loot or no one else wants it- so you're wasting time and space by showing up in the first place if you intend to leave after you've reached your loot cap.

Loot caps are the way to go - if we have pugs it is 1 main spec (the spec you are in now), 1 tier token, and unlimited off-spec (fair because if someone really needed it they would roll main). The good thing about these rules is that everyone has a chance to win gear and nobody, like the guild or loot master, will be blamed because of RNG.

If you run with a pug you must make the loot system fair to everyone - guild only runs will be loot counsel by good of the guild rules.

* I can't believe this loser wrote to you guys wanting support for this terrible suggestion. Hey bud, if you don't run with pugs then you won't have this problem, but if you do then make if fair. If you rip off an item that a pug fairly won Blizzard will suspend you, take the item and give it back to its rightful owner.

@Alden:

The part you're ignoring is that once the other tank has also gotten a piece of loot, or if a piece drops that he doesn't want, you're up again. You're not locked out of any more loot for the night, just until things are spread around evenly. Our guild does the "1 main piece cap" rule for loot, and many, many nights go by where people win more than one piece over the course of the night. (And yes, many nights go by when some don't win anything - depends on the drops of course.) Dropping group after you win your first piece is short-sighted and foolish, and only prevents you from potentially getting the *better* loot that comes from farther-in bosses.