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3-22-2010 @ 2:51PM
Very well stated. I was always puzzled at the diversity in guilds' approaches to raiding and raid conduct - some seem very team-oriented and democratic while others seem like loose conglomerations of selfish, profiteering individuals who tolerate each others' existence only for what they can get out of it and think pugs should just be happy they were allowed to show up and waste ammo.Over the last couple of years, whenever I led a raid, I always told my guildies that any PUGs that run with us have the same loot rights as guildies for the duration of the run, because we wouldn't be in there without them. (The only item we EVER called "guild privilege" on was the EoE key off of Sapphiron, and we even stopped doing that once a few of our people had it.) We've had several "do the right thing" moments that ended up screwing a guildie in order to protect our reputation for fair play, and we came out the better for it.By contrast, last summer a few of us pugged into a 25-man Ulduar run with a newer guild that had recently been assembled by a former guildie of ours. The culture clash was shocking. There were several items "saved" for certain people in case they dropped. There was an enterprising fellow selling flasks for 35g a pop if you forgot to bring your own (in our guild runs we always shared freely, with pugs and guildies alike).Best of all, there was a standing rule that all patterns stayed in guild - this is the one that really got my hackles up because it hadn't even been disclosed, and we wouldn't have known until it was too late had I not thought to ask about it after hearing all the other "rules".I whispered the friend and former guildie who was their GM/RL about patterns. That's when he announced on vent that they keep them. I whispered him that I was not cool with that - I didn't have a single Ulduar LW pattern yet at that time and wanted the right to roll on them, and didn't want to get saved if they weren't going to change their stance (they were right about to pull FL so it was becoming a now-or-never issue). He consulted with a couple of his new officers and told me "Well, if something drops and [their guild leatherworker] doesn't already have it, maybe we'll sell it to you."At this point I was about ready to reach through the interwebs and rip this guy's throat out, but instead I just told him "dude, that just doesn't cut it. There are twelve of you plus 13 pugs; you're in 25-man because we're making it possible. I have the same right to a LW patttern as [their guild leatherworker]. If you get where I'm coming from, would you please make rolls on patterns open to anyone able to use the pattern, or I'll have to drop." And he knew that meant my wife and four other guildies were dropping with me, and it was already 8:45pm on a Friday night, and he'd get to enjoy the next hour in Dalaran filling spots.He signed, consulted his officers, and grudgingly announced the change on vent. It was enough to get us to stay, but we never ran with them again after that night.Two months later, his "uberguild" asked him to hand over leadership of the guild to another one of the officers. He passed lead, and dropped guild. Last I heard he was on a more "Hardcore" raiding server, in a great guild where he could just be a face in the crowd without the pressures of leadership, and having a great time there. And I was really glad for him.And I have since discovered, his former officers are pretty nice people, too.
3-22-2010 @ 3:34PM
Holy crap, what a ridiculous wall of text. My bad.
3-22-2010 @ 3:36PM
I ran with a 25-man guild that was pugging through TOC. Our loot rules were pretty simple -- main spec first, off spec afterwards, and patterns go to the guild first, others afterwards. We were always very up front about it, and we never had anyone complain.I think a lot of how you deal with loot is just 'Be upfront and honest at the start -- before you're even close to getting saved'. It's sometimes hard to get the right stuff out of people beforehand, people forget, have things they don't mention, etc. but so long as the rules are clearly stated -- preferably before you start pulling or buffing -- I've found that most people are willing to deal.Selling patterns to a PUG who is rolling with you if you're not keeping them in-guild feels pretty shitty to me, though. It's clear that they were not upfront about it, and not flexible. I don't think you did wrong, but it's possible that there could have been less begrudging on both sides if they -- or you -- had brought it up earlier.
3-22-2010 @ 5:47PM
Should also mention, been in several pugs of TOC 25, and only got to roll on a Trophy... once.They're not making any sort of announcement about keeping trophies, and it never occurs to me that we never saw any trophies until well after the raid has ended. Are people just assuming "guild keeps them" is so standard, they don't even have to say anything at the beginning?
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