The Queue: A slap in the face!
by Adam Holisky 
Mar 22nd 2010 at 1:00PM
I saw this on Digg this morning, and it immediately took the place of the next disgusting animal I was going to force you all to look at. I'm putting it up on WoW.com in hopes that all these people who think they can troll actually learn something -- realize that their great great great great great grandfather knew how to troll ten times better then they can.
Steven asked...
"Why is there the hybrid tax? Don't hybrids that use abilities other than their dps abilities lose dps when doing so, thus imposing their own sort of hybrid tax?"
First, some basic info for those that need it: A hybrid tax is a decrease in the overall abilities of hybrid classes by a certain amount; it makes the classes inherently less good than other non-hybrid classes. Hybrid classes are mainly paladins and druids. Pure classes are mainly rogues, mages, and hunters. Now to answer the question.
You're right -- the fact that a ret paladin will need to blow a GCD on an instant heal in the middle of combat is a natural hybrid tax imposed on him by the very mechanics of the class/game. However, that isn't enough. The hybrid tax exists for a few reasons, and there's always plenty of debate surrounding it.
- It balances a class where you could switch between the best healing, the best dps, and the best tanking in the game
- It makes pure dps classes more attractive to play
- It stop there from being situations (when skill is equal) that the hybrid would always win over a pure dps class
Now, the important thing to remember is that for 99.999% of the playerbase, this discussion doesn't matter at all. For that vast majority dps and survivability is more dependent on knowledge of the class, gear/gem/enchant choices, and ability rotation. This has been one of Ghostcrawler's main points lately, and it's something that needs to be said often. Blizzard could eliminate the hybrid tax tomorrow and increase all the hybrid's output by 1,200/dps, but the super vast majority of players will still have the exact same problems as they did before. And those problems are strictly related to their ability and skill, not related to the game's mechanics.
Chris asked...
"Will we ever see Recruit a Friend changed so that we do not have to be grouped 'and' in close proximity to our 'friend?'"
Very doubtful. If anything we're going to see the RaF bonuses apply through level 70 (soon too, I'd guess). But the grouping with a friend and being in close proximity hits at the very heart of the program, and that's not something I see Blizzard changing. If they did, RaF would just be "buy a 30% XP bonus" (even more so than it is now). And that's not going to happen anytime soon, if ever (I pray, at least).
Cutaia asked...
"Has Blizzard ever talked about how Inscription will evolve past Wrath? With most professions, adding a new expansion just means 75 more skill levels of new and better gear. A level 80 wrath tailoring robe is obviously better than a level 70 BC tailoring robe. But when I look at glyphs, a lot of them are tougher to judge in terms of longevity."
All that we know is Blizzard has plans for new glyphs. We don't know what they are yet, but we know they're out there in Blizzard-world. There will, obviously, be glyphs for new abilities and situations, but beyond that we don't know much. How Blizzard is going to handle the professions in Cataclysm is one of the major question marks right now.
Have questions about the World of Warcraft? The WoW.com crew is here with The Queue, our daily Q&A column! Leave your questions in the comments and we'll do our best to answer 'em!Filed under: The Queue
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 8)
Luci Mar 22nd 2010 1:06PM
Adam that is awesome.
lykos4 Mar 22nd 2010 4:48PM
The hybrid tax violates the bring-the-player-not-the-class philosophy. Pures have just as much choice as hybrids, but instead of choosing a different role, they can choose a different way of DPS. As a shadow priest, I certainly feel like Mages or Warlocks have a lot more choice in how to DPS than I do.
Also, the way the tax is applied is extremely inconsistent. Why are warriors counted as pures and shadow priests counted as hybrids? If the tax is to offset the ability to be a different class, shouldn't Druids and Paladins be more penalized than hybrids that can only do 2 roles?
There is no reason to impose a hybrid tax of any kind. The argument that people wouldn't play pures without the existence of a tax is complete nonsense.
Gallifrei Mar 22nd 2010 5:01PM
I agree. The reason people play certain classes is much more related to the mechanics of that class, rather than what they theoretically know the max DPS output to be. Some people find Paladins boring, some don't. Some people find Rogues a lark, some cant stand the burst DPS mechanic rogues use. It really has nothing to do with the so-called "tax" ( I would call it a taking, rather than a tax), and everything to do with playstyle preference. If the tax were removed tomorrow, I doubt there would be a huge population shift towards hybrids.
Tankadin Mar 22nd 2010 6:40PM
Shouldn't it be "if you're a hybrid, your DPS is not going to be as high"?
As far as I know, all the healers and tanks are very equal. Since when are paladins the weakest of the healers by a noticeable margin?
Unholy DPS is pretty insane at the moment too, not sure if anyone noticed they're not really dinged for being a hybrid. Does anyone have any recent parses of a ton of the top guilds that are in ICC showing DPS per class?
TobiasX Mar 22nd 2010 7:36PM
@lykos4
Although a rogue / mage / warlock / hunter may be able to change the way in which they dps that doesn't change their role in the raid: dealing damage.
For any other class changing the talent tree they choose changes that role massively. It can move them from melee to ranged, threat generation to damage dealing to healing. This option to change your role in a dungeon or raid at the click of a button, regardless if you want to use it at the time or not, is the reason for the hybrid tax; if hybrids did as much damage as pure damage classes then pure damage classes would rarely, if ever, be taken due to their being no reason to take them.
- They cannot change role if required
- They can only gear for a single role
- They bring no unique buffs (thanks to "bring the player, not the class")
If they dealt 'normal' damage then a massive portion of the playerbase would reroll or just be phased out.
Rogues would reroll to Feral Druids. Mages, Warlocks and Hunters would reroll to Druids and Shaman.
Last time I checked this was how pure-hybrid was levelled out.
1 role: Pure classes: Rogue, Mage, Warlock, Hunter.
2 roles: Warrior, Death Knight (unsure on this, may be 2.5).
2.5 roles: Priest (due to the significant mechanic difference between Discipline and Holy)
3 roles: Shaman, Paladin.
4 roles: Druids.
jrizutko Mar 23rd 2010 9:33AM
@Tankadin
All Tanks and Healers are already hybrids. There is no hybrid tanking or healing tax. The only pure classes are the 4 DPS only classes: Rogues, Mages, Warlocks, Hunters.
I can understand why Adam's explanation caused confusion, but from a design perspective Blizzard doesn't differentiate between Warriors/Priests and Paladins/Druids.
Stella Mar 22nd 2010 1:13PM
Add Warriors, Death Knights, Priests and Shaman to the list of hybrids. A hybrid is any class that can either heal OR tank OR both. In other words every class but Mages, Warlocks, Rogues and Hunters.
Sir Broose Mar 22nd 2010 1:26PM
Yes, your list of supposed hybrids is very short.
You are a hybrid, not just because you can use alternate abilities all in one encounter, but also just because you have the option of creating another spec that has an alternate role. That is why warriors are considered hybrids (which you left off your list).
A dps specced warrior can not effectively tank an encounter that is at their own level, but they have the option of switching specs and becoming a tank, and for that reason a dps warrior is supposed to be somewhat behind pure dps classes, all thing being equal.
It's not about using an alternate ability while you are dpsing. It's the potential to have an alternate spec, this making your toon, supposedly more valuable or desirable than a class that can only fill one role. So they tax your dps, to help even the playing field (in theory. I make no claims to the validity of the idea).
A paladin or a druid or a priest that stops dpsing long enough to throw out a heal is obviously loosing dps, but that has nothing to do with the hybrid tax. They don't tax us because we can do something else mid-fight, but because we can completely re-spec and fill an entirely different role.
sankto Mar 22nd 2010 1:38PM
@sir broose : He DID add warriors to his hybrid list. Look at the beginning of his post.
kesherz Mar 22nd 2010 1:40PM
Warriors can heal now? OP!
Adam Holisky Mar 22nd 2010 1:42PM
I didn't include the full list because I didn't want to have another 500 words about why warriors are a hybrid class. If I were to include warriors, I'd have to explain that, and that's not relevant to the discussion and derails the entire point of the question.
Docp Mar 22nd 2010 2:11PM
"I didn't include the full list because I didn't want to have another 500 words about why warriors are a hybrid class. If I were to include warriors, I'd have to explain that, and that's not relevant to the discussion and derails the entire point of the question."
" A hybrid is any class that can either heal OR tank OR both."
That's only 13 words that pretty succinctly sum it up.
Nizari Mar 22nd 2010 2:14PM
I don't buy the "warriors/DKs/priests are hybrids because they can perform multiple roles" argument. While they can perform multiple roles, they use the same mechanic for every role. When a warrior/DK does DPS, they hit things with a big stick; when they tank, they hit things with a big stick. Priests heal with spells, and they DPS with spells. IMHO, hybrids are the classes that can perform multiple roles with multiple mechanics. Which means pallies, shamans, and druids.
Zanathos Mar 22nd 2010 2:29PM
It doesn't really matter what your opinion of a hybrid is. In Blizzard's definition, it's any class that can perform a roll other than DPS. As this is a question about WoW, that's the only relevant definition.
Beruza Mar 22nd 2010 2:48PM
@ everyone
Just let him write it the way he wants to.
Note that he used the word "mainly" instead of "only." Mainly is not a definitive word. He was just trying to save some time and space by only giving some examples.
I understood it just fine and I'm sure you all did too. You are just bashing him for no reason other than that you can and you won't suffer any consequences for it.
Zahira Mar 22nd 2010 2:48PM
"Hybrid classes are mainly paladins and druids."
I would like to point out the word MAINLY...he never says there are no other hybrid classes, he simply only stated the names of the ones that can fill all 3 roles instead of just 2 roles. This whole argument, by the way, is an argument of semantics and not such a big deal in the grand scheme of things. If you got offended that he didn't mention your class specifically as a hybrid class then maybe, just maybe, you may need to re prioritize your life.
Thundrcrackr Mar 22nd 2010 3:22PM
Agreed.
"Mainly" was a poor choice of words. There is no such thing as mainly hybrid or mainly DPS. You are either one or the other. Any class that can ONLY DPS is "DPS" and any class that can do anything else is "hybrid". There is no "mainly".
Sir Broose Mar 22nd 2010 3:42PM
@sankto
I was referring to the author, not the OP of this thread. Sorry, that was not very clear. I was originally writing that post as my own thread, but then I saw that a similar thread was already started, so I added it there.
Adam:
The reason you left warriors off, so you wouldn't have to explain why they are hybrids, is my point, exactly. Classes are not considered hybrids because they can fill 2 rolls at the same time in the same fight. That seems to be how you are defining it. A class is a hybrid because they can spec into more than one roll, at all. It takes no more words to say that about a warrior than it does a Pally. I think the issue is the person who asked the original question (the one to whom you offered an answer in this queue) had a misconception about what a hybrid was and what the tax was. They were only asking why a tax was necessary, but equally as important is the fact that they didn't understand what it meant to be a hybrid. He/she thought it meant you could stop for a second in a fight and do something other than dps, but I am pretty sure that is not what Blizz considers to be a hybrid. They look at any class that can switch roles completely as a hybrid. I don't think that's irrelevant in any way. I think it's a crucial point in answering the question.
Sir Broose Mar 22nd 2010 3:47PM
@ Zahira
I hope my comment does not come off as bashing Adam. Not my intent at all. I honestly felt the answer to the question was not exactly correct, because it made it sound like the reason a toon was considered a hybrid was because you could heal and dps simultaneously.
I think Adam's writing is great and I think he knows way more about WoW than I do, in general. I intend no disrespect. I am only trying to constructively help the discussion.
Sir Broose Mar 22nd 2010 3:49PM
Sorry, that should have said @Beruza.