Encrypted Text: Guide to patch 3.3.3 changes for rogues

I can always tell when it's patch day. I don't have to read it on the forums or check our tip line for a Blizzard insider spilling the beans. All I have to do is watch my iPhone. It'll be mid-morning on a Tuesday, and my phone will start blowing up with texts from all the rogues in my address book. They're eager to bounce various spec ideas off of me, ask if I've done any testing with the new glyphs, and to see if I can spot them 40 Cardinal Rubies for their brand new gearing strategy. The answer to the last question is always "no", as I have more important things to spend my gold on, like a shiny new ilvl 277 cloak from a GDKP run.
If something is rebalanced, it's done via hotfix. Only the really major changes make it into a patch, and so a patch is inherently a Big Deal. That's the reason that any rogue forum you visit for the next few days will be inundated with "what's good in 3.3.3?" threads. I'm going to do my best today to lay all of the changes on the table, and let you know which ones are important and which ones you can safely ignore. The patch notes affect all 3 rogue specs, and so you'll want to understand the updates even if you're not interested in the subtlety revival (which is more of a whimper).
Subtlety
Let's talk about the biggest changes first. I covered the new sub spec details pretty thoroughly a few weeks ago, but a quick recap can't hurt. In terms of PvE viability, sub is dead last, and it's not even close. None of the changes make up for the forced PvP / survivability talents that we're required to take as we make our way down the tree. While our other trees make look more similar to sub once Cataclysm is released, we are still firmly in the Lich King's grasp and the dominance of a DPS-oriented tree is too strong for sub to overcome.
Forget about it for now, and hope that a future patch or expansion brings sub PvE back from the dead. I'm not going to post a "best possible" sub PvE spec, because frankly, you can throw your points just about anywhere in the tree and you're still so far behind Mut or combat that it's not worth trying. The spec misses all of the hit, expertise, and CDs that make combat so potent, or it misses all of the poisonous goodness of a Mutilate build. Even if you had some hybrid gear set with enough hit and expertise to cover the spread, you're missing out on all the other stats that push Mutilate and combat to their current levels.
Now, all of that goes out the window if we're talking about PvP. Unfortunately, I don't know if sub is going to be as versatile as our standard Mutilate/Preparation PvP build. Shadow Dance is overpowered against certain classes (Hunters with Flares come to mind), but faces the same challenges that a combat PvP spec would face. Without Deadly Brew, you immediately lose 50% or more of your poison damage by relying on Crippling Poison, while both Backstab and Ambush have positional requirements that make them incredibly difficult to use in a fast-paced PvP environment. Waylay may be intended to replace Crippling Poison, but it simply can't do the job if we have to be behind our target to apply it.
I think a strong subtlety dagger build could be a lot of fun to play in a battleground or world PvP environment, but for serious arena play, I don't expect many rogues to spec into a Shadow Dance build unless they're facing a specific opponent. I'd be tickled pink to be proven wrong, but let's face it: we all ignored Mutilate in TBC due to its positioning requirement, why would Backstab be any different? Hemorrhage will simply not cut the butter, as it's not tied to Waylay and doesn't see the 30% extra crit that we get from Puncturing Wounds.
Updated glyphs
What? Wait... what? Three new useless glyph buffs? Your guess is as good as mine as to what Blizzard was thinking on these, but I pray they were added as a comedy item. The Feint glyph is a nice idea, but there aren't any fights that require it, and cutting DPS for survivability on a small scale is not the way a rogue handles that problem. Unless it is life-threatening or avoidable, you let your healers heal through it. They're actively working to allow themselves the capability of healing you through these AoE effects, so why would we insult them by trying to do it ourselves? Focus on your DPS: the quicker the boss goes down, the less time your healers will have to deal with that AoE damage pulse.
Rupture ticks can now crit
First, they came for the warlocks and shadow priests. Then, they came for the shamans and restoration druids. Finally, they've come for us. Rupture ticks are now able to crit, and unlike our poison crits which are based on our spell crit chance, Rupture crits based on our physical crit chance. With a Rupture-heavy build, this means that agility gems become significantly more valuable. There's only one problem: no PvE spec is particularly fond of agility.
As a general statement, for any rogue ability that scales with Attack Power and physical crit chance, agility is better than AP in equally balanced portions (10 Agility to 20 Attack Power). Unfortunately for Mutilate rogues, they're running into serious White Crit Cap issues in ICC gear, and adding more agility to their gear is simply exacerbating the problem. In addition, poisons don't scale their critical strike chance via agility, so Attack Power and Haste are more potent for boosting our poison damage. This means that Rupture is already critting as often as possible if you're running a Mutilate build, so the finisher has no room to grow with new gear.
This means that Mutilate really doesn't want to socket Agility at all, and both AP and Haste are sub-optimal gems for a Rupture build. The final nail in the coffin for using Rupture with Mutilate is the strength of Envenom: it will typically out-damage a Rupture, and so Rupture is basically out of the question. The fact is that Mutilate builds don't have the available points it would take to reach deeper into subtlety to pick up Serrated Blades, and without that, Rupture can't compete with Envenom, even if it does crit. Rupture is in the ideal situation (high AP, high crit) and yet it's still not viable.
Now, Combat actually does have the points it would take to pick up Serrated Blades. Unfortunately, as we've seen with all of our current 20/51/0 builds, the second tier of subtlety is so awful for PvE that we're essentially throwing away 5 talent points. With any given talent point providing around 1% of our overall DPS, I think it's pretty obvious that losing 5% of our overall damage just to add Rupture to our rotation won't be worth it. The question is: can Rupture with crits beat Eviscerate, even without Serrated Blades?
That's one you'll have to answer for yourself on a spreadsheet. Envenom beats Rupture so bad that Rupture's kids will get the bruises, but the Rupture vs Eviscerate battle is far closer. Unfortunately for Rupture (I feel like I've been saying this a lot today), most combat rogues have already given up their DoT ways and are gemmed / geared for ArP. Eviscerate loves ArP, Rupture literally gets no benefit from it. The old rogue adage of "Rupture always does more damage than Eviscerate" is simply not true now. The reason it used to be true was due to high enemy armor, which is no longer an issue. So again, rogues of today's game are simply not designed to start using Rupture again, and haven't been for some time.
Depending on your particular gear, and particularly for combat builds with low ArP, you can actually make a Rupture build work pretty well. Only a spreadsheet can tell you for sure, but I've been seeing a lot of solid math showing a DPS increase by going to a Rupture-heavy rotation. The basic idea is to scrap Eviscerate for Rupture by picking up Blood Spatter and filling Ruthlessness out instead of getting Improved Eviscerate, and swapping your Eviscerate glyph for a Glyph of Rupture. I've also seen some math that argues that dropping a different glyph will be a lower DPS loss, as we'll still be popping off a few Eviscerates when Slice and Dice and Rupture both have a long duration remaining.
The simple fact is that it's going to be a close call, and so I wouldn't recommend running out and regemming unless you really, really love Rupture. Rupture builds are weaker on any fight with heavy swapping (Deathwhisper, Valithria, Putricide) and stronger on our burn fights (Saurfang, Festergut, Rotface). Almost laughably, all of the fights that favor combat are also Rupture's worst case scenarios. Combat's huge boon is its quick target swapping and on-demand burst damage via cooldowns, whereas Rupture's best-use case involves a single target and steady damage over a long period of time. Adding Rupture to Mutilate's already second tier target swapping would simply be an insult to injury.
Conclusion:
Sub PvE is still dead, sub PvP may be the most enjoyable spec in the game but won't get you gladiator. The new glyphs will probably become somewhat of a joke among the rogue community, so if you catch me telling you to glyph Deadly Throw, realize I'm only teasing. Finally, Rupture can be useful, although Envenom beats Rupture like Rupture owes Envenom money, and Eviscerate can put up a decent fight when hopped up on ArP. I get the feeling Rupture just showed up late to the party and realized that everyone had already left. Wait for an updated spreadsheet and check for yourself, but if you're combat, Rupture may very well be in your future.
Filed under: Rogue, (Rogue) Encrypted Text






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
onetrueping Mar 24th 2010 3:16PM
Wait. You said that the fact that Rupture crits is bad because... our crit ratings are too high? Most of the article makes a fair amount of sense, but that one is a tad confusing.
"Rupture crits based on our physical crit chance. With a Rupture-heavy build, this means that agility gems become significantly more valuable. There's only one problem: no PvE spec is particularly fond of agility."
Agility is valuable because it has both AP and Crit, right? So AP for base damage, and Crit for, well, increased crit chance. And it's common sense that, for stats that have multiple effects, you'd only take them if all those effects are useful.
"Unfortunately for Mutilate rogues, they're running into serious White Crit Cap issues in ICC gear, and adding more agility to their gear is simply exacerbating the problem."
So, the reason not to take Agility is because they are hitting the crit cap already. Which means that they shouldn't waste space on crit rating. Which means that stacking any more Crit for Rupture is simply unnecessary, because you already HAVE the Crit.
TL;DR people: Statement went "X needs Y to be useful, but we have so much Y that we can't use X."
Ciel Mar 24th 2010 3:20PM
See earlier article on crit cap issues... spells out why too much crit is not a good thing.
onetrueping Mar 24th 2010 3:23PM
It's not a matter of "too much crit not a good thing." It's more a matter of "this ability isn't useful because we have too much of what it needs."
Chase Christian Mar 24th 2010 3:24PM
Here's the thing:
Let's say a rogue's WCC is 70%, and that this rogue is at the WCC. That means that they will be avoiding any additional crit on gear. This means their Rupture won't scale as they get better gear, because they're already capping their crit chance.
Combat rogues don't have this issue as often, so they can afford to work on maximizing the value of Rupture.
It is a bit circular, but the basic concept is: Rupture already crits as often as it can for Mutilate (no room to grow) but is already outpaced by Envenom. For combat, a rogue can start pumping agility to bring Rupture up to (and over) Eviscerate levels. The problem with Rupture and a Mutilate build is that Rupture for Mut rogues is already crit capped (since rogues are avoiding crit), and so Rupture has no room to grow.
Makros Mar 24th 2010 3:31PM
I think what onetrueping is saying is that it doesn't make any sense to say "Agi is good for Rupture because it gives AP and Crit, but we have too much Crit so Rupture is bad." His argument is that if Rupture thrives on Crit and AP and rogues have reached the Crit cap then it simply makes a different gem better for Rupture (ie. AP) for rogues that have reached the Crit cap. He is simply saying that it doesn't logically lead to the conclusion that Rupture is bad because Agi is bad.
However as the article says, Rupture is bad for Mutilate because Envenom is simply way better than Rupture so the above issue doesn't really matter even though it is illogically presented in the article.
onetrueping Mar 24th 2010 3:36PM
Exactly, thank you Makros. And yes, I know Envenom is better, and probably scales better as well.
Eyhk Mar 24th 2010 3:36PM
@Makros Thanks for wrapping it up way better than what i was attempting, good thing I refreshed before trying to post ;-)
Eyhk Mar 24th 2010 3:36PM
Stupid reply button
Luci Mar 24th 2010 3:47PM
I actually have a question about all this, not a comment lol.
My fiance and I are currently bg lvling rogues as subtlety. We are going with sword MH, dagger OH because we aren't really using dagger based abilities. Basically, we are keeping people stun locked and using GS and hemo, ending in Evis and they are pretty much dead by the end of it. I never see anyone doing a similar thing though....
Our reasoning is that we are sub, we are built for one on one, we pick our target and stun lock them til death, and then we restealth, rinse and repeat.
I feel like we should reevaluate though to ensure we are doing the right thing with all these changes.
I don't see much about our style, though it works extremely well for us at the moment. If we pick to kill someone, then they get killed lol. Also, we usually top damage. Maybe it is just that what we are doing is good now, and won't be at 80. It has to be because it works so well. Does it sound like I'm missing something?
Yitzak Mar 24th 2010 4:02PM
Nope, from the standpoint of somebody who doesn't play rogue, that's pretty much the size of it. You show up from nowhere, and I stand there stunned until I'm dead. It's why I don't really PvP anymore.
Hail Mar 24th 2010 4:26PM
I generally dont team up w/ other rogues for pvp ownage, but it seems to me like the 10 secs of stun (CS and KS) w/ 2 rogues on a guy is ample time at any level to kill a guy. Plus, eventually diminishing returns get in the way. What I would do is have one person on stuns, and the other using Ambush/Burst moves. Also, hemo stinks. its debuff would likely not be completely used, so it isnt doing the most damage it can (though again, i have not done this). Since the patch, hemo now does more damage w/ daggers, so there really isnt any good reason not to use one unless you have a far superior other wep. One hemo for the debuff (which might go away when its shared) may work, but backstab has some pretty nice burst. Another advantage to daggers is that you can vanish->Ambush for even more burst :)
Because i dont want to reply again to the whole post right after this, i also want to point out (not to Luci in particular) that IF you use a sub build in PvE because fun > DPS and you raid casually, Rupture is very good. Not only does it do more damage w/ serrated blades, but it also gives CP from HaT. (assuming your group isnt giving you the crits you need)
Luci Mar 24th 2010 4:46PM
Oh I didn't mean that we always necessarily double-team one person. I still using my current strategy kill by myself with ease. I just have this nagging feeling about it....
I'm about to reach the end of the sub tree and shadowdance doesn't really fit in with my current rotation well, so I imagine that it might be time for me to consider doing more than what I am now. Using stuff like ambush doesn't seem to work more effectively than just stun-locking. My PvE lvling spec is assassination and when I compare the energy regen and combo point generation speeds to sub, sub falls horribly short. I love the pvp tools of sub though.
At this point, it is really the question of dropping my MH wep to daggers that I can't seem to decide on. It would help make shadowdance more viable I guess, but it doesn't even seem necessary in my current rotation.
monk Mar 24th 2010 4:51PM
@Luci
Not really missing anything. The changes make it so a dagger can be used in your MH without losing all of the dps you are getting from a slower MH. Also, having the dagger in your MH means you can open with Ambush, followed by Hemo or Backstab, and then Evis. You are actually able to two- or three-shot targets this way, even in battlegrounds.
Personally, I love the toys in Sub for lvling and PVP. I will have a hard time when I have to swap to Assassination.
Luci Mar 24th 2010 5:09PM
Yeah, I usually open with Cheap Shot to play it safe since I can usually get them quickly with that anyway. When I get shadowdance I might play around with Ambush since I already have 2 daggers for my PvE spec.
monk Mar 24th 2010 6:20PM
I might not be the best rogue, but I actually skipped Shadowdance and started picking up Assassination talents and some other Subtlety ones. They worked better for my lvling and I don't usually need something like Shadowdance in the battlegrounds.
I don't know if it's giving me a giant advantage, but I've been rolling with the BtA chest, shoulders, daggers and bow since lvl 19 (only lvl 61 now, and thinking I might get NR gear to replace them for 68-70 since they can get better encs).
Cyprin Mar 24th 2010 4:15PM
"I haven't had the time (and, I admit, at some level the inclination) to update my spreadsheet for 3.3.3, so I can't comment definitively on which will be better. But if you want my best guess... I suspect rupture will yield higher sustained DPS on Festergut/Saurfang type fights, but will respond less advantageously to more interrupted fights (like, Dreamwalker). So is it worth speccing into and using? My guess is that, depending on exactly which fights you're optimizing for, it probably is... but not necessarily by a lot. Optimally, of course, one could use dual spec to keep both a rupture-based spec and a evis-based spec and switch back and forth on a fight-to-fight basis, but that will obviously only work if you don't want to use your 2nd spec for PvP or Mutilate or whatever."
http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t36781-rogue_simple_questions_simple_answers/p189/#post1593931
Rapskallion Mar 24th 2010 4:20PM
So for combat... if you're already highly stacked on ArP then Eviscerate will out perform Rupture, so don't change anything. If you're not stacking ArP but going for AP/Haste or some other variant then one may see a minor increase on static fights using and glyphing Rupture and Agi gemming.
Good... I don't have to change a thing. Whew.
Coldbear Mar 24th 2010 4:32PM
think you missed the point on the glyphs - it wasn't to make rogues more powerful or make the really good pvp'ers and pve'ers change their glyphs.
It was just to make the not-so-good ones a bit less bad and provide a tiny bit of choice or at least make the consequences of experimenting or making sub-optimal choices less severe.
SleepySlug Mar 24th 2010 6:43PM
Agreed. I personally am quite excited with being able to swap out my TotT glyph for Feint on fights like Sindragosa where my heals can use any help they can get. Also, on a more self-centered note, less dmg from the Chilled to the Bone debuff means I can stack it higher w/o taxing said healers which means higher personal dps at the loss of a little extra dmg to my TotT target throughout the course of TotT. TotT doesn't get the uptime it usually does in that fight anyway.
Rai Mar 24th 2010 4:33PM
I miss HaT raiding.