The Queue: The final salvo in dogs versus cats
by Michael Gray 
Mar 26th 2010 at 11:00AM
Yesterday's Queue was interrupted by the obvious BlizzCon excitement. And who wouldn't be excited at such grand news?
But with today being the last day of the week, I have to provide a final answer to Mr. Rossi. He rightfully pointed out the elite healing skills of his kittens. That's pretty impressive. I found that to be quite a challenge, and couldn't leave it without a riposte.
So last night, I slapped some peanut butter over my action keys, and let Sylvanas pilot my Ret Paladin. While she's absolutely horrible at not standing in fire (and thus probably won't raid much), she was able to score about 5k DPS. I don't think that counts as successful, though. I don't think there's a future in WoW for my puppy. At least she fetches real well.
Prinnygod asked . . .
Will any of you WoW.com people be participating in Earth Hour?
Well, some of us will be, while others won't. I like the general intent of the Earth Hour gesture, but others of us work in an environment where you can't turn the lights off for safety reasons. Your intrepid WoW.com crew is international and across a dozen time zones; with that kind of round-the-world coverage, it's a little more diverse from that.
If it helps, though, I actually keep all the electricty off around my home that I possibly can, at all times. Momma Gray raised me right, that way.
Galestrom asked . . .
So, you guys seem to have an intrinsic ability to see things from all sides. Can you tell us your thoughts as to why we can't kick anyone from a random dungeon group for 15 minutes? I can't see the logic here, as failure doesn't typically take 15 minutes to identify.
Okay, note that this is Mike Gray's Opinion, not the WoW.com Staff's Opinion as a whole.
It's pretty easy nowadays to blow through most of the Heroics in twenty to thirty minutes. So, no, it doesn't take much time to identify someone who's behind the general curve of your group.
But those instances, and the Dungeon Finder, isn't just for people who are in a lot of Frost Emblem gear, or Icecrown Citadel gear. It's also for folks who are just getting started at level 80. And if a group who's already maxed out their ICC kit sees someone in blues and maybe one-or-two epics, it might be real tempting just to boot that person.
Waiting the 15 minutes means you've darn near cleared the place by the time that temptation can become a reality, and at that point: hopefully the person will have proven themselves a little better. Now, if the person loves to stand in fire, that's one thing. But in the meantime, a 15 minute delay means you can't just boot them for a low GearScore.
Stieinberg asked . . .
Do you think WoW will ever get back to a time where people actually enjoy running heroics and actually do the content instead of skipping past mobs and bosses?
Well, people will always goes for the path of least resistance directly toward gear improvements. In a sense, MMORPGs are kind of about watching numbers get bigger and bigger. So, if there's a more direct route towards higher numbers, most people will take that route.
That being said, these things tend to be a little cyclical. We've been running these Heroics since November 13th, 2008. So, after 16 months of these instances, people are a little burned out on running the same thing over and over.
Have questions about the World of Warcraft? The WoW.com crew is here with The Queue, our daily Q&A column! Leave your questions in the comments and we'll do our best to answer 'em!Filed under: The Queue
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 7)
nick Mar 26th 2010 11:09AM
short q&a, but I like your take on the 15 minute question. I've seen someone complain that another person "needs to leave" because they were 'only' doing 1.7k dps, when they hit 80 earlier that day. Some people have become jaded by their own gear.
Chairman Kaga Mar 26th 2010 11:21AM
It's as bad (maybe worse) with tanks as it is with DPS. I was once told I was incapable of tanking a heroic with 26k HP unbuffed. People forget that we got by with much less in 3.0, before the gear scaling took most of the challenge out of it. (Hint: that complaining DPS dropped group and we finished just fine.)
Too many people nowadays want faceroll or GTFO, and forget that not everyone is running around in full T9/10, nor do they need to be (with the exception of ICC). The delay keeps these sorts of idiots in check.
Lemons Mar 26th 2010 11:26AM
He thinks that's low? I've been in a hero where all the dps were doing ~1k or less. I would practically go oom on boss fights simply because the dps was so terrible that it took ages to kill a fracking 5 man boss. It also didn't help that there seemed to be an outbreak of afk fever in the run as well, meaning clearing trash with only 1 or 2 of the 3 horribad dps. Afterward I logged on my rogue and did the random, because at least on him I can just carry any group in terms of DPS, hell I can do more than that entire group combined.
Mattimus Mar 26th 2010 11:38AM
Honestly, there are just as many "terribads" in 232/245 gear that still don't know how to clear 2k DPS.
I give a lot of slack to people in relatively bad gear, and also people who are actually nice -- if you show up, have a good attitude, and are open to suggestions, I'll carry you til my back breaks.
It's the people who show up in Triumph vendor gear and some ICC/Frost gear (and I'm no raider, so my gear isn't any better), still put out low DPS, and on top of that either stay silent except for "gogogogogogo" or, worse, brag about single crits ("10k! WHoo!") every two seconds that piss me off.
I had a Hunter in 232/245 gear in a ToC5 run, he held the last drops hostage until we posted a DPS meter (which we didn't). We waited out his loot timer, and then rolled Need on everything and left. He didn't make off with anything except a tanking necklace though, so all he really got for his asshattery was a few gold from vendoring the necklace and 4 more spots on ignore lists.
This kind of false elitism is, thankfully, not TOO rampant, but if you run a few Heroics a day, you'll see one or two people each day that really belong on a blacklist. If everybody put them on their ignore list, come Cataclysm they may not be able to find any groups at all.
trefpoid Mar 26th 2010 11:51AM
I think the only problem with those 15 minutes is when u get someone with uber gear and he just logs off, killing the party during that time. The other day I got a friggin Kingslayer as a tank.. u think he cares about a random heroic at all? He's already beaten the game and he queued up as tank, got inside the instance and went offline. We couldn't kick him for 15 minutes and we couldn't advance at all since he was the most important guy in the party. It was a pain in the ass. If they could reduce it to 5 minutes or something we could avoid this. I mean, it's ok to be awesome and kill the Lich King, but that doesn't give u the right to go mess with 4 people who are actually trying to get some gear..
Augnadun Mar 26th 2010 12:48PM
Personally, i'm more likely to invoke a kick vote upon someone with a -higher- GS. I've seen way too many people with 4k+, some even 5k+, that pull barely 1.5k DPS. GS is at best a measure of the players potential, i know; but pulling numbers like that means they're probably half afk and reading the internet while they stumble through the place. The other four people you're in there with deserve to have someone who's focusing as much as they are, whether you can faceroll the place or not.
The only time i'll condone kicking people for being undergeared is if you're doing 500-1k DPS. If you're that low, you either don't know you class at all or you are drastically undergeared for heroics. More often than not, those people are in there in nearly solid greens. In the earlier months of the expansion, people geared like that would most likely mean you aren't getting through the dungeon. There are more than items from quests/crafting/AH to become heroic ready 20 minutes after you hit 80. If you're a newer player and don't have alts to fund purchases, do what so many powergaming jerks would scoff at these days; run some regular level 80 dungeons for gear before stepping into heroics.
Cor Mar 26th 2010 12:53PM
When I heal a low HP tank, tank with a low geared healer, or DPS with a new tank I look at these runs as a challange to my skill. Can I keep the tank up? Can I keep myself alive? Can I kill stuff with out pulling agro? Lazy players have become far too common. A limit on kicking is good because of this.
But it has caused the creation of a new kind of griefing. Sad to say but there is a segment of the playerbase that gets off on screwing with people. Now they just need to que as a tank and go afk.
They are watching and monitoring so hopefully the time will be adjusted or something else will be done.
Augnadun Mar 26th 2010 12:51PM
*more than enough items*
my proofreading fails ; ;
Cyanea Mar 26th 2010 1:08PM
It really is amazing how quickly people forget that we were ALL in crap gear running heroics at one point. Remember when getting the drake in CoS was a badge of honor?
vazhkatsi Mar 26th 2010 1:40PM
well as an addendum to tanking with a low level of gear relative to your dps, when all your dps can pull 5k dps by auto attacking, a lot of less geared tanks have trouble holding aggro.
i know that on my lock i don't even use a rotation in heroics, i just spam shadowbolt, cause if i were to use my normal shit i would be putting out more threat than most tank can handle. i still manage 5k with just shadow bolt though.
aheleos Mar 26th 2010 2:36PM
I totally agree with your 15 minute idea being, at least, a good point if not the reason behind the rule. Just last night I was tanking Heroic CoT as a fresh 80 in mostly blues when someone said, "I hope this guy can hold aggro with that gear score." The healer responded saying, "It's about skill, not GS." We then proceeded to chain pull the instance, I got my epic drake, and we were out of there in no time. Had that player had the option I'm sure he would have loved to kick me from the group before even giving it a chance.
V Magius Mar 26th 2010 2:46PM
@Cyanea - You mean your character wasn't created fully geared in full ICC/Frost gear from the split helm of the Lich King as soon as you hit 80?
Which makes me think. I really need to create a character named 'Ebay' or "Craigslist" and get him into some serious raiding for Cataclysm.
Anathemys Mar 26th 2010 2:54PM
@ Mattimus
You are completely right. I saw a shaman in all epics, as in, if it wasn't ICC gear, it was the highest from TOC, run up every trash pull and lightning storm the mobs away from the tank. I am NOT making this up. I don't know if someone was taking a run on his character, or if he normally healed or something, but this guy was just terribad. Luckily, our tank was pure genius and managed to not only survive, but own the instance.
And as for under-geared tanks, get over it. If the healer's half-good, you'll be fine. Same with an under-geared healer. Now, if you get an under-geared tank AND healer, then you might be in trouble... NOT. Like several people have said, we all ran these with crap gear at one point.
And as an actual on-topic comment, I would have no hope of gearing my lock if there wasn't a wait time... By the time the wait time is up, most people at least have a grudging respect for my fire-dodging skills.
bob Mar 26th 2010 4:12PM
I like the 15 min timer in theory, since I know that my fresh DK is going to look terribad when he hits 80, but there really are some asshats in the queue (esp. as tanks) that really make me think that it should be lowered (or possibly lowerable based on performance). I randomly got AN the other day and had a bear "tank" who wore not a single piece with melee stats on it and whose only spell he seemed to cast was Moonfire (and yes, that means he was in caster form). Quite frankly I didn't heal him and he died on the watchers over and over again. Luckily we were all smart players and stood back and let him keep killing himself without drawing our own aggro. It's one thing to be undergeared, it's another to not even make it look like you are trying and hope that you can take advantage of the short tank queue.
D Mar 26th 2010 4:27PM
If the DPS is low, I don't mind b/c my DPS will make up for it. As long as the person is trying (not auto-attacking or standing there doing nothing) I don't mind carrying people. If the healer is undergeared, no worries b/c I play a hybrid and I can throw out some heals too. If the tank is undergeared, not a big deal, I can rein in my DPS so I don't pull aggro.
HOWEVER... at least once a day for the past two weeks I've had tanks "ninja-afk" at the beginning of an instance. "Sry gtg" and then they stand there till they AFK. And here's the kicker -- in almost every case you can tell they're not AFK b/c you can see them targeting various party members or mobs. Probably sitting there laughing their asses off at our indignation.
So either way the other 4 ppl get their valuable time wasted b/c someone is getting their jollies by being a jerk No matter how you look at it, we're out another 15-20 minutes -- either in waiting out our own debuff if we drop group, or waiting to kick the tank and then waiting to find ANOTHER tank to finish the instance.
It's griefing, plain and simple. Is it reportable? I have no idea but a 5-minute wait on vote-to-kick would solve most problems like that.
ScorchHellfire Mar 26th 2010 5:13PM
Most of the time when I want to kick someone it's because of their unacceptabley nasty behavior towards me or others in my group or their complete failure to play their role, not because their gear is a little low or their performance is a little lacking... They have to really get on my nerves... However most of the time when a vote is put forth they are with a friend or guildie and the vote is overturned so I get to spend the rest of the time putting up with their asshatery...
Ratskinmahoney Mar 26th 2010 11:09AM
'Do you think WoW will ever get back to a time where people actually enjoy running heroics and actually do the content instead of skipping past mobs and bosses? '
When we have new content that we don't seriously outgear, or when the cost/benefit ratio of obtaining emblems becomes great enough that noone bothers collecting them on mains any more.
Hendrata Mar 26th 2010 11:54AM
I also found that question extremely unfair and a bit on the annoying side.
Yes, we used to kill every single bosses, especially when those bosses drop something we need. Now, if Wrath had just been launched, and somehow Blizz added the option of going straight to Sapphiron, do you think people would still take their time to kill the other bosses? Yes, because people need the drops from there.
So, the answer to that question, yes. Early in Cataclysm's cycle, people will kill every single boss, but late in Catacylsm's cycle, people will skip bosses again (as much as the dungeon layout allows).
Eyhk Mar 26th 2010 11:58AM
*Just a general comment on the related question, not a direct reply*
Just because you notice people blowing through instances and not enjoying content doesn't mean that they were always that way. While I was first leveling to 80 back in 2008 (wow, 2008?), each instance was fresh, new, and completely awesome. I enjoyed running them for quite awhile actually. Like Michael mentioned though, after running each instance dozens and dozens of times for over a year, it kinda gets old. Just because I'm running a new alt through the instance doesn't make it new either. If you enjoy "experiencing" each instance that you do, it might be a better idea to find friends, guildies, or pugs from the same server that have the same goal, instead of popping into randoms and then trying to enforce your goals on others. Or just wait till Cataclysm. I'm sure you'll find plenty of people enjoying the new dungeongs then!
Despard Mar 26th 2010 11:12AM
Yesterday I zoned in to a random 78 dungeon on my alt, and one of the DPS immediately went offline. We hung around for a couple of minutes but no dice. So we tried to kick the player - except we couldn't, because of the 15-minute limit. The four of us slowly started progressing through the dungeon, and eventually we hit 15 mins and kicked the dps. Another one joined straight away of course, no more problems.
So my point is: I get being able to burn through content when you're overgeared for it - but what if you are doing level-appropriate content that is actually still quite tricky with 5 players let alone 4? And when someone disconnects, or goes AFK, and you have no ability to kick them?