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3-31-2010 @ 6:27PM
The more I read the lore articles the more I get the feeling you are a little too heavily biased.The Lore to me doesn't seem to indicate in any way the skew you place on human = good, orc = bad, yet this is just how you have made all your articles sound.It's almost like you have never played through the Horde starting quests, instead only playing through the Alliance ones. So much human evil against the races of the Horde. Even the Darnassians are featured as honourless spies in the noble stuggle of the belfs/undead.
3-31-2010 @ 6:31PM
Explain to me the bias in this post. Even in Rise of the Horde, it's made clear from start to finish that the orc genocide against the draenei is entirely the orc's doing. Even Thrall admits it. Go do the starting quests in Borean Tundra where Saurfang talks about the sounds draenei children made when orcs slaughtered them. Watch the Black Temple trailer and make note of the scenes of blood crazed orcs killing women and children, defenseless victims of demonic orc bloodlust. Literally so, as the orcs drank demon blood to gain it.I have several horde toons, including a level 80 tauren warrior. The orcs committed genocide against neighbors they'd been at peace with for decades on the say so of Ner'zhul and Gul'dan. There's no bias in that statement.
3-31-2010 @ 6:36PM
You need to look at your entire string of articles to see the bias. So far (and you don't seem to be running sequentially) you have picked out all the Human=good and Orc=bad facets of the lore.This article is good and accurate. It is is true to lore and well written, yet, when you look at each and every article you have written you can see a bias.How about picking some of the Human factions that are evil or have been corrupted and who play a fairly large part of the persecution of Horde races?
3-31-2010 @ 6:41PM
Again, what bias are we talking about? It seems more to me like you have a bias against humans that infects even your comments on a post that doesn't even mention them.
3-31-2010 @ 6:44PM
OK, I see that you can't consider your entire series as a whole. So just black me out and I will stop reading.
3-31-2010 @ 6:55PM
The response to a request for the burden of proof is not to petulantly yell, 'You don't understand me!' and slam your bedroom door, it's to show specific examples. This is how arguments are made. Rossi point by point disproved your theory for this article, citing specific topics. Do the same for these other articles you mention, or your argument has no support. Vague accusations and how you feel are not actually evidence.
3-31-2010 @ 7:00PM
Look at the third post Hollow, the second I make.Now, look at each and every article as a whole series, and not just individual articles.
3-31-2010 @ 7:06PM
You talk of the Human mistreatment of the Orcs as if it were entirely unfounded. The pillaging of Stormwind? Assassination of King Llane? I suppose all of these events CLEARLY illustrate "good" orcs.The fact is, with the Orcs, there are no shades of grey until very recently - up until now, they have been evil creatures surrounded by demonic bloodlust and shadow magic. And I love them for it.Your claims of "bias" are only your own bias. Rossi's articles are excellent, and his argument in his first reply is enough to disprove you.
3-31-2010 @ 7:07PM
@JayIt's all about perspective. You seem to be a "For the Horde" chest-pounder, nothing wrong with that, but when you describe things like "the noble struggle of the belfs/undead" and then claim faction bias on the author, you pretty much kill your argument. I don't know if planning a plague to wipeout all life on Azeroth could be considered "noble", but that's just me. Yeah, the humans have done some pretty bad things to the orcs, but in some respect it was motivated by war, death, and bloodshed caused by, mainly...the orcs themselves. As for the article, it doesn't seem like it's an "orc=bad" argument. It's taking a non-apologetic stand that, yes, the Horde did some crazy things on their demon-blood binge. Some people need to just accept that, for some time, the orcs were legitimate bad-guys. Are they currently? That's for Blizzard and the playerbase to decide. Besides, the article was about Draenai, and they just rock.
3-31-2010 @ 7:09PM
It's like saying that Americans aren't guilty of the genocide against Native Americans during its initial conquest. What you're doing is turning a blind eye on what your faction has done in the past, and saying "WAH WAH YOU'RE EXPOSING OUR PAST MISTAKES".Ok, it's like this: trying to shit-talk about someone after they did a report on Jewish suffering through Holocaust.
3-31-2010 @ 7:12PM
I just went back and glanced at the most recent Lore articles that Rossi wrote. From this "series", he started with the formation of the Alliance, then the Old Horde and went through the first, second and third wars. Really, that just seems like more or less chronological order to me, with the exception of this article on the Draenei. I think perhaps you're frustrated/confused simply because basicallly the "Old Horde", more or less evil, existed longer than the so-called "New Horde" has. So if we're going chronologically we're going to see more bad Hordies than good ones. Anyway, I'm not "Orcs saying bad, Humies good" because we all know that's not true, but I really don't think you have a valid point.
3-31-2010 @ 7:16PM
Mr. Rossi is merely stating the facts - you however seem to have come to this article looking for a fight and because you're losing you're just ignoring his requests for proof and basically saying "you don't understand me waaaa". Please provide proof of his bias if you want anyone to respect your opinion, have a good day sir.Excellent article Mr. Rossi, I look forward to the next.
3-31-2010 @ 7:31PM
Jay, do you realize that the last KNY article about the orcs was not written by Matthew Rossi, but the other KYL author? By the way, if you cannot accept and live with FACTS then I guess you should go and put your head into sand. Orcs are FAR from good. Draenei are generally good. Eredar are very bad (now).
3-31-2010 @ 7:33PM
At most you could claim that Rossi has a bias in SELECTING lore articles that cover the Horde races victimizing the Alliance races. Then again, there aren't a lot of large lore stories involving the Alliance victimizing the Horde. I suppose Rossi could cover how the High Elves invade Trollish lands, but they're Horde now.. Or he could cover how the Humans unfairly persecuted the Forsaken after the undead plague ravaged Lorderon... no? I've got it; how the Dwarves and Gnomes.. um... sat in their undermountain cities and fueded with themselves.. no.. Ahh, how the Night Elves totally were off in the Emerald Dream until the return of the Burning Crusade .. umm no.. Maybe it's not Rossi who has a bias, but the Horde that has pretty much consistently screwed with everyone else, MAKING lore. (Except the Tauren, they get a free pass.)
4-01-2010 @ 12:08AM
Grendalsh:Go play WC3:TFT. The High Elves, devastated after the Prince of an Alliance faction carves a path through their city and destroys the magical power that has sustained them.Prince Kael'Thas goes looking for help and a Human General sends him on a suicide mission then gets mad when he survives because some naga saved him.The result was the Blood Elves.Everything they did after that was in response to getting betrayed at their time of greatest need. They had been loyal supporters of the Alliance and were basically hung out to dry be a racist that figured they were useless now that their power was broken. This same race taught the humans and gnomes magic, provided archers and mage-priests and they were suddenly alone when they needed their allies help.Of all the betrayals in this lore this one gets glossed over the most. The history would have been very different if the humans had helped the high elves.
4-05-2010 @ 2:35AM
I have respect for Know Your Lore, and I would not classify myself as a "For the Horde" chest pounder, though I can say I have seen some bias involving these posts. To a lot of people the things the Orcs have done can be offensive, leading to the idea that the Horde is bad. The Horde is more that the Orcs, they have a huge range of races, from the clearly evil Forsaken, to the peaceful Tauren.Saying the orcs are responsible for the massacre of the Draenei is like saying when I killed the healer on Lady Deathwhisper it was my fault, they were clearly under the influence of powerful magics that did not allow reason.
4-01-2010 @ 6:22AM
Sorry but there is bias here for DraneiYou make them loot too good, while they didn't give any hint at all for the owners of the planet they live upon that the burning legion 2nd in command want to bring misery and suffer to themYou made them look "bad" because they didn't react fast enough, while the real "bad" part is they didn't warn the orcs that the most evil force in universe is chasing them and won't stopI wonder if the orcs would welcome the dranei if they knew that, I wonder if you will accept a guest in your house and you know that he is chased by one of most powerful evil force in universeWhat the orcs did was wrong, but at their defense they were heavily tricked and they didn't even know about anything like that, while the Dranei hoped to hide here and they didn't try to warn their neighbors all that time they lived together
4-01-2010 @ 7:55AM
@Angus:Well that human Prince is Arthas and he ravaged the High Elves in the Undead campaign, so the High Elves should be pissed at the Undead because of this. Arthas first action was to kill Therenas the ruler of Lordearon, and destroy the human kingdoms, it's really hard to say that he was Alliance by then.So the only wrong the Humans did to the High Elves was a Human General who did not helped the elves after most of the Human kindoms was destroyed along with Quel’Thalas. That was one general no one heard about before and if I know correctly was killed in the same campaign. I still don't understand how a simple human general (a nobody) can make the High Elves as a race join with the Undead, who was probably the same Undead who ravaged the Quel'Thalas before they brake free from the Scourge.The Horde was the bad guys in all of the Warcraft games prior to WoW, and I think who plays Horde is OK with it. I always thought people playing Horde because they wan to be badass bad guys. I cannot think of any undead player who wants to be in a noble and holy Horde who wants to help lesser races, be peace with nature and help the growth of trees etc. They are bad guys and they like it that way :D
4-01-2010 @ 10:03AM
I just wanted to pick up on what $am said, though I guess I'm coming a bit late to the debate:I do not defend the actions of the Orcs.However, it grates with me when I read things like this (from wowwiki):"Though otherwise a peaceful, private race, the draenei carry an intense hatred for all orcs and will slay them whenever the opportunity arises."Don't get me wrong: I do indeed see the Draenei as the victims of all this. However, I would think that especially the older and wiser Draenei - those who have lived long enough to have experienced (though I'm sure even younger ones who have heard of) their flight from other worlds upon being discovered by Kil'jaeden - would surely reserve their hatred for the true perpetrators of the genocide.As I have said, I do not defend the Orcs. As shown by individuals such as Durotan and his Frostwolf Clan, the Orcs did not have to fall prey to the corruption, so yes, those who did are very much to blame for the evil they committed. But in the bigger picture - and I would imagine that the long-lived Draenei are very good at seeing the bigger picture - they are only the tools of a greater evil.I would think that while Draenei will certainly not be fan of the Orcs, and would be right to be wary of them, their hatred should be reserved for the puppetmasters. In fact, I would think that there might even be a little uneasy guilt amongst some of them for the knowledge that (through no direct fault of their own) it was their landing on Draenor that brought the planet and its people to ruin.I would also point out that the Draenei are praised here for having helped the Blood Elves of Silvermoon rebuild the Sunwell... If the reasoning here had been "even though they're members of the Horde", then that's all well and good. But I would question the labelling of the Blood Elves as "those who have only offered evil to them", when the Blood Elves of Silvermoon have in fact been betrayed by, fought against and helped vanquish Kael'thas and his forces in Outland - the latter being the faction who did wrong by the Draenei.
4-02-2010 @ 12:40PM
I think the problem is Blizzard and not the author of this article. The Alliance side seemsto be portrayed time and time again made to look like good guys, its not their fault this happened to them, they are all just victims. In the game there are dungeons where you fight orcs, you fight trolls, you fight against blood elves, you fight the undead, and you fight variations of them a lot in this game an they seem very similar to the characters you play. On the Alliance side it seems that you don't fight your same race that much, I can't think of too many evil night elves, gnomes, or draenei (in their current forms not naga, broken or mutated). Dwarves have a bit in common with troll and orcs but the dark dwarves feel really different where as the orcs and trolls you fight seen very similar to the ones you play, and humans are just humans they will fight anyone and seem to be as easily manipulated as the orcs.
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