Thoughts on the death knight tanking change

Why one tank tree?
Balancing death knights has pretty obviously been a constant battle. There's essentially been six different trees to balance for both PvE and PvP, a tall enough order that almost every major patch has included a large handful of death knight tweaks. Not only did the devs have find a niche for dual wielding, but they had to balance tank talents against PvE talents on the off chance that the interaction would overbalance or underbalance a certain spec in the right combination. They had to squelch diseaseless specs and one-button DPS specs, and Unholy alone took them until Patch 3.3 to get to some semblance of balance.
They already solved the dual wield issue by pushing it squarely into one tree, so it may not be completely unexpected that they're doing the same for the tanking issue. This will, in theory, allow them to focus more on equalizing the tanking classes without having to worry about three separate basic tanking talent setups for death knights. In addition, we should hopefully see a lot more unique tanking toys for death knights instead of two or three per a tree mostly backed up by DPS talents used in creative ways.
Why blood?
Some people have expressed surprise that blood was chosen as the tank tree instead of frost, which is still (inaccurately) seen as the tank tree by many players, but there's a pretty strong set of reasons to go that way. To start with, the developers have spent the last few patches focused heavily on frost buffs and tweaks, but not mainly for tanking. Rather, they've been molding it into the dual-wielding and magic-focused DPS tree. To completely throw all that work out the window would not only negate that work but then necessitate trying to rebalance one of the other two trees to be the dual-wield DPS tree.
That leaves the unholy and blood trees. In this case, they actually come across as very similar later. They both use Death Coil as their rune dump. Gargoyle and Dancing Rune Weapon are almost identical in basic mechanics. They both focus on churning out death runes to use their powerful physical damage based weapon strike. (Yes, Scourge Strike does some shadow damage, but that physical damage component is still huge.) There are smaller differences, of course, such as unholy's extra disease and pet versus blood's superior health stealing and multiple strength boosting talents, but the basic style of the trees has become more and more similar as Wrath progresses. Therefore, turning one into a sole tank tree isn't as much of a loss of a playstyle as it might be, since underneath the hood, unholy and blood are remarkably similar in how they play out for DPS.
The factor that pushes blood over the top is that it has actually been a consistently amazing tank tree for most of the duration of Wrath. While it does fall behind on AoE threat, there's rarely been better for single-target threat (Icy Touch has equalized the threat differential a bit as of late), and blood's superior stamina and healability has also afforded it a top tanking slot in many raids. With all the stamina buffs and self-healing already in the tree, you'll have to move out a lot less DPS stuff. Move Abomination's Strength to frost and you're most of the way there already.
The bottom line
The bottom line is that it is sort of a bummer that we're losing some of our flexibility -- but if handled right, this could lead to more power and more fun for a death knight. Since the developers won't have to juggle six different modes of play crammed into three trees, they may feel more able to flex their legs and their creativity and give us more toys and options without fear of imbalancing the whole thing. Essentially, our breakdown is going to look something like this:
- Two-handed blood tanking, likely continuing blood's focus on high stamina, health drain and healability, but hopefully with more proactive damage prevention ability than it currently has
- Dual wield, magic focus frost, with haste and scads of runic power for its signature style
- Two-handed physical damage unholy, with diseases and pets giving it flavor
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 4)
clundgren Apr 7th 2010 3:09PM
That's a very good question.
I *think* the jist of previous blue posts was that all plate melee specs would be able to switch into a defensive stance to do some tanking, but not nearly as well as a dedicated tank spec.
The idea seemed to be to make lower level tanking (i.e. for heroics) more accessible, and so cut down on wait times, etc., without eliminating the need for dedicated tanks to do harder content (i.e. raids). So a ret paladin or fury warrior or (in Cata) unholy DK, etc. could tank a heroic in a pinch, but not much more.
I *hope* that is what was meant.
wilkersonbd Apr 7th 2010 1:54PM
Do you think that this will lead to Frost and UH being balanced for PvP and PvE seperately as well like Frost being PvE and UH being PvP (since its mainly the dk representative now and with the recent deathcoil changes)? I would be disappointed if they go this route because I like the diversity of the 3 talent trees but I understand why they are making a tank tree for balancing issues.
Cabbageloins Apr 7th 2010 1:58PM
The DK was the first hybrid class that Blizzard perfected. Have you ever gone to a DK message board and asked what the best talent spec is for DPS or tanking? Go ahead, I'll give you thirty minutes to research.
...
Still no conclusive findings? That's what I thought. Sims and logs come back with results so close there's no way anyone can conclusively say there is a best DPS spec, and tanking is even less set in stone, with opinions changing on whether Blood's EH or Frost's avoidance are best, finding the line between survivability and threat, and whether to spec into more raid buffs or personal improvements -- Death knight tank speccing is one of the most involved and subjective parts of the game, and it gives a very personal sense of reward when it pays off. Playing Blood DPS when Unholy was king, and destroying the Unholy DK's meters because honestly, we were VERY balanced, was rewarding. The DK is what every hybrid class ought to be; we're quite powerful in every spec/role combination we choose.
Now, go research the best specs for EVERY OTHER CLASS/ROLE IN THE GAME. You have thirty minutes.
...
Wait, you still have 25 minutes, why are you back already?
Blizzard identified the one class that is different - the class that is truly tuned to perfection - and decided it would be easier to balance if it were just the same as every other class. It's not because we need 'solid ground'; anyone who has actually played a DK, and especially tanked as a DK in the end game, knows that those who still believe DKs are underpowered tanks couldn't be more wrong. It's not about making our choice easier, giving us more shiny tank toys, or making us stronger tanks. It's not anything for our benefit. It's certainly not best for PvE, PvP, or our gameplay experience.
This change isn't about the players, it's about Blizzard wanting to do less work. The least they can do is come out and say it. Bad form, Blizzard.
Keveline Apr 7th 2010 2:57PM
/agree
I've toyed with DK's off and on as I'm sure most people have, but just started leveling my first 'serious' one a few weeks ago. He's Blood/DPS and I just hit 77 with him.
There are a couple of things that make the DK class cool and interesting, at least to me, to play. One is the lore of course, at least they're not changing that. But the other thing is that DK's are "HEROIC" and function differently from pretty much every other class in the game. Now they're going to function exactly like every other class in the game. Wheeeee. How will DK's be different from warriors now? The glowing blue eyes?
Of course they haven't even made any of the changes yet, just talking about them, and maybe come PTR time it won't seem so bad or play so differently than it does now.
But right now I find the changes to be a bit depressing.
clundgren Apr 7th 2010 3:15PM
You really think that Blizzard makes decisions because they are lazy? Really?
Their rationale is pretty clearly spelled out in the blue post, and makes sense. Yet instead of discussing what was actually written, you choose an ad hominem attack on Blizzard's work ethic.
Bad form, Cabbageloins.
clundgren Apr 7th 2010 3:58PM
"How will DK's be different from warriors now? The glowing blue eyes?"
Yes. That will be the only difference. The glowing blue eyes.
/rolls glowing blue eyes
N-train Apr 7th 2010 4:20PM
While I agree that your whole first paragraph is what made my DK so much fun to play, I think it's incorrect to label this as "lazy Blizz". Now before I get jumped on, let me announce that I am just as bummed out as everyone else, despite the fact I've been tanking in blood in every major content patch, and was hoping to see some neat way to make this work with the mastery system.
One of the prime reasons Blizz cited as why they decided to make this change is that it wasn't fair to all the other classes. Yes DKs are supposed to be special, but in the end it comes down to Dev Team resource management and fairness to everyone who doesn't play a DK.
On top of this, the new mastery system was the death of this lovely and enjoyable experiment to begin with. How does the system distinguish between tanking and dpsing? Tie it presence you say? Watch me spec completely for frost dps then hop into frost presence and we all go back to Wrath Beta, where DKs did the damage of rouges with the survivability of a prot warrior. Blizz worked so hard (to their credit, I think) to balance out DKs, and I don't want to see me getting my talent points refunded every patch in Cata due to major balancing issues.
Again, I was hoping this would be the future of hybrid classes as much as anyone else, but I think its fair to point out the massive logistical issues that would have plagued the system, and we shouldn't be too hasty to judge the Dev Team here until we see an actual 4.0 talent tree (remember, they're trying to get rid of "ideal" and "cookie-cutter" specs).
Keveline Apr 7th 2010 4:46PM
"Yes. That will be the only difference. The glowing blue eyes."
That's exactly what I thought, thanks for confirming it. A tank tree, a 2-hand dps tree and a dual wield dps tree.
Irem Apr 7th 2010 6:13PM
The problem with you deciding that Blizzard is making this change out of pure laziness is that this POV depends on Blizzard wanting DKs to be "just like every other class" when death knights -aren't- like every other class and, even with this change, won't be. Is Blizzard making this change because it'll make DKs easier to design? Yes, but that's not a value judgement. I don't see any point in them sticking with the "every tree can tank" experiment at the expense of making the class better and more fun to play.
While every tree may be balanced now, in Cataclysm everything will change so drastically that, just by way of game mechanics, that probably won't be the case. Basic things that we take for granted now are going away completely. The talent trees are getting a complete overhaul; how could things possibly stay as they are? Blizzard is looking ahead, realizing that the cost of maintaining the gimmick outweighs the benefits to the class, and going with the most efficient route. Your personal disappointment is talking when you say that this isn't about the players and all about laziness on Blizzard's part, since anyone speaking from an objective point of view can see that they work very, very hard on getting this shit right. They don't always succeed, but the fact that they're on the forums daily talking about it and asking for feedback and actually, constantly balancing instead of letting classes languish at near-unplayable states for years the way some companies do should tell you something.
dodgeballer2005 Apr 7th 2010 7:16PM
OMFG, when will people learn? They are doing this to make it easier on not only themselves, but the player base. People who isolated frost tanking were doing it all wrong in the first place. They ASSUMED that Frost was the only way to go. Well now Blood WILL be the only way to go, and they ANNOUNCED it.
Another note: I hated dual wield tanking, the mechanic of holding two toothpicks in your hands trying to hold off a giant fist is just too demeaning. I can say for all of the Death Knights that two DINNER KNIVES cannot be used to hold the Lich King. Rogues in plate we are not!
TL;DR, go blood, and see how superior it is to Frost in tanking and why this change is worth it!
Kaz Apr 7th 2010 2:00PM
I think its kind of sad that they're becoming more rigid with the DK specs. Especially after all their statements about making other classes talent trees more versatile. I always though DKs were going to be a model for how they were going to approach other classes. When Wrath launched it looked like you could effectively DPS, Tank, or PvP from any of the specs, but it seem like each spec had a bit more of focus on one of those areas.
Blood for PvE DPS, Frost for Tanking, and Unholy for PvP. Nothing was set in stone so it allowed players to be effective and tree selection to be a stylistic choice as long as they took the right talents in their chosen tree. Of course the hardcore min/maxers would have a "one true spec" for a given role.
It seemed to be the future of where class design was headed. I'm really sorry to see the devs pull back.
As to making the Blood tree the tank tree, it just dosen't FEEL right. Sure there are plenty of good blood tanks around, and the simple rotation, consistent threat generation, and self healing are great for tanking mechanically. However, Blood feels like its supposed to be a frenzy DPS tree, making as many enemies bleed and die as quickly as possible and then drinking their blood for sustenance. Frost feels like its supposed to harden and support, and come down with slow but big hits every now and then.
The complaint is really more of an aesthetic one, and perhaps is fueled by how the DK presences work. I'm assuming their going to change Blood Presence to provide more damage mitigation and stamina on top of self-healing, and Frost Presence to increase runic power generation and crit-strike chance. Maybe something like that will help, but it still is a somewhat strange aesthetic choice to go with.
LexOrdrin Apr 7th 2010 2:02PM
"I don't find any of the trees other than Frost appealing to spec into"
How about we see what the trees look like before we go proclaiming the end of the world? Personally, I've always favored blood tanking, but being primarily an OT through Naxx and Uld, I was largely frost out of need. Since the tail end of Ulduar, DK tanking kinda fell by the wayside anyhow. Every patch contained nerfs to our health and mitigation, so I abandoned it for dps.
As it stand, there is huge need for something proactive to be done for DK tanks (huge props to those who stuck it out), because until the higher gear levels, they are clearly weaker than the other tanking options. I think this will be a great change, and hopefully lead to fewer PvE nerfs due to PvP imbalances.
Alyssa Apr 7th 2010 2:08PM
The reason for this was not the frost presence and frost tree but the presence of tanking CD's in the frost tree which no one seems to address what about unbreakable armor this is far in the tree so not a crossover talent? As well as improved frost presence and acclimation as far down in the tree.
Chris Anthony Apr 7th 2010 4:31PM
Clearly, the only change that Blizzard is going to make to Death Knight talents in Cataclysm is to declare that we're only allowed to use Blood to tank. Nothing else will change at all from the way it is currently. *nods sagely*
Falcom Apr 7th 2010 2:14PM
I remember a while back blizzard said they had something special in mind for how to handle masteries for DK's and their multiple roles per tree. Apparently that panned out into just simplifying the trees into one role per tree. Quite disappointing to me personally, but not completely unexpected.
SR Apr 7th 2010 3:03PM
Since there are only three mastery benefits per tree, allowing every tree to tank would severely hamper the performance of their role. It's like evenly splitting your CURRENT talent points between three.... no, even two trees, and expect to pull superior DPS or survivability.
Which makes me wonder.... How would hybrid trees pan out?
Falcom Apr 7th 2010 3:36PM
that same article said that feral druids(in the same two roles in one tree situation) would have two sets of mastery bonuses based on which form they are in. They could have done the same thing for DK's if they wanted to, but apparently the balance issues are just something they didnt want to keep fighting.
Andrew Apr 7th 2010 2:22PM
Very close to being a sad 2H Frost PVP panda, but I'll reserve judgement until the specifics come out.
Vandell [XBL: Keazra] Apr 7th 2010 2:41PM
Typing from my iPod here, so bear with me.
My issue isn't with mechanics.. I feel Blizzard has been wrongly molding the trees into their respective roles for all the wrong reasons, simply because "they already fit". The thematics, in my mind, do NOT fit at all, and Blizzard is being intentionally lazy just because Blood already has the most tanking talents and they don't want to spend time making Frost work.
I've polled my Twitter audience [70 followers] and asked them what sounds more like a tank: Blood, Frost, or Unholy? Without giving hem any context, they all unanimously agreed [about 10 of answered] Frost.
I'll post more on this when I'm available on my computer.
SR Apr 7th 2010 2:52PM
To be honest here, I think that all this QQ about frost and unholy tanks becoming extinct is quite... foolish, to say the least. Frost tree has SOME mitigation talents, but never offered enough stamina or mitigation through raw healing, and Unholy tree's been lackluster since their strongest mitigation talent only lasts them for about the first 10 seconds of a fight. Just by judging the talents that were available, blood always had more focus on raw survivability over nifty tricks that other trees provided. To see Blizz take the obvious and the most efficient route makes me happy, to say the least.
I have to say, though, that the possibility of blood DPS being removed makes me sad on the inside; but I'm a bit of a hypocrite there, since my DPS tree is frost.
Perhaps now they can buff our threat without making the other DPS trees overpowered, eh?