Thoughts on the death knight tanking change

Why one tank tree?
Balancing death knights has pretty obviously been a constant battle. There's essentially been six different trees to balance for both PvE and PvP, a tall enough order that almost every major patch has included a large handful of death knight tweaks. Not only did the devs have find a niche for dual wielding, but they had to balance tank talents against PvE talents on the off chance that the interaction would overbalance or underbalance a certain spec in the right combination. They had to squelch diseaseless specs and one-button DPS specs, and Unholy alone took them until Patch 3.3 to get to some semblance of balance.
They already solved the dual wield issue by pushing it squarely into one tree, so it may not be completely unexpected that they're doing the same for the tanking issue. This will, in theory, allow them to focus more on equalizing the tanking classes without having to worry about three separate basic tanking talent setups for death knights. In addition, we should hopefully see a lot more unique tanking toys for death knights instead of two or three per a tree mostly backed up by DPS talents used in creative ways.
Why blood?
Some people have expressed surprise that blood was chosen as the tank tree instead of frost, which is still (inaccurately) seen as the tank tree by many players, but there's a pretty strong set of reasons to go that way. To start with, the developers have spent the last few patches focused heavily on frost buffs and tweaks, but not mainly for tanking. Rather, they've been molding it into the dual-wielding and magic-focused DPS tree. To completely throw all that work out the window would not only negate that work but then necessitate trying to rebalance one of the other two trees to be the dual-wield DPS tree.
That leaves the unholy and blood trees. In this case, they actually come across as very similar later. They both use Death Coil as their rune dump. Gargoyle and Dancing Rune Weapon are almost identical in basic mechanics. They both focus on churning out death runes to use their powerful physical damage based weapon strike. (Yes, Scourge Strike does some shadow damage, but that physical damage component is still huge.) There are smaller differences, of course, such as unholy's extra disease and pet versus blood's superior health stealing and multiple strength boosting talents, but the basic style of the trees has become more and more similar as Wrath progresses. Therefore, turning one into a sole tank tree isn't as much of a loss of a playstyle as it might be, since underneath the hood, unholy and blood are remarkably similar in how they play out for DPS.
The factor that pushes blood over the top is that it has actually been a consistently amazing tank tree for most of the duration of Wrath. While it does fall behind on AoE threat, there's rarely been better for single-target threat (Icy Touch has equalized the threat differential a bit as of late), and blood's superior stamina and healability has also afforded it a top tanking slot in many raids. With all the stamina buffs and self-healing already in the tree, you'll have to move out a lot less DPS stuff. Move Abomination's Strength to frost and you're most of the way there already.
The bottom line
The bottom line is that it is sort of a bummer that we're losing some of our flexibility -- but if handled right, this could lead to more power and more fun for a death knight. Since the developers won't have to juggle six different modes of play crammed into three trees, they may feel more able to flex their legs and their creativity and give us more toys and options without fear of imbalancing the whole thing. Essentially, our breakdown is going to look something like this:
- Two-handed blood tanking, likely continuing blood's focus on high stamina, health drain and healability, but hopefully with more proactive damage prevention ability than it currently has
- Dual wield, magic focus frost, with haste and scads of runic power for its signature style
- Two-handed physical damage unholy, with diseases and pets giving it flavor
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Reader Comments (Page 4 of 4)
Vandell [XBL: Keazra] Apr 7th 2010 3:44PM
Efficient? Yes... Obvious? How so?
When you imagine the three Death Knights - Blood, Frost and Unholy - standing in a line, thematically speaking, what would you pick to build up as your tank? Ignoring all mechanics and going with the "feel" of the word/presence alone, which of the three sounds like they could take a hit more readily?
Irem Apr 7th 2010 6:31PM
I actually think that making the Blood tree the tanking tree is interesting, thematically, since it makes them a very different "flavor" of tank compared to the others currently in the game.
We do tend to think of a tank in terms of damage mitigation and "hardness." They're unbreakable, they block, they're a solid wall, they're the immovable object. So frost makes sense, even with no other context.
My DK is Blood, and I can't imagine him as anything else. And at first I had him pegged as DPS, but revisiting it, I can see him as a tank. From a roleplay perspective, he's demanding and controlling and sadistic. He wants the enemies' attention on -him-, and he likes to toy with them. In that sense, Blood breaks from the traditional idea of the calm, unbending protector standing between the rest of the party and the fight, and becomes the psychopath throwing themselves into the middle of the battle and keeping the attention of the mobs just because if they take their eyes off this maniac, they're going to be missing limbs.
It's not the traditional tank image. It's scary and a little selfish--it's Kiefer Sutherland in "Lost Boys" tanking for you and that doesn't feel especially -safe.- But we have tanks who are the stalwart protectors, and how different Blood feels thematically (at least the way I see it) makes it interesting for me.
Omegan01 Apr 7th 2010 3:02PM
"Essentially, our breakdown is going to look something like this:
Two-handed blood tanking, likely continuing blood's focus on high stamina, health drain and healability, but hopefully with more proactive damage prevention ability than it currently has
Dual wield, magic focus frost, with haste and scads of runic power for its signature style
Two-handed physical damage unholy, with diseases and pets giving it flavor"
So...tanking, dual-wield dps, and 2-handed dps.
...so when do we rename the trees Prot, Fury, and Arms?
OK, maybe the situation isn't THAT bad, but come on. Being able to tank or dps in any spec was one of the signature abilities of the death knight, and Blizzard's ripping that away - they're LITERALLY destroying half of the DK specs with this change: blood dps, frost tanking and unholy tanking. And this comes at a time when it really seemed like DK specs were falling into a nice balance with nobody way ahead or far behind. This really strikes me as a band-aid solution: "don't want to deal with it, throw a band-aid on it and move on."
Very disappointing.
Rubitard Apr 7th 2010 3:44PM
Now, I didn't say what you're about to read. It was said by a co-worker at lunch who's a more, um, "aggressive" player than I. We were discussing the upcoming DK changes. I don't agree with his statement, but I did have a laugh at it for it's sheer gamer pomposity:
"Sadly, those who play DKs will still never learn to hold aggro tanking or do decent damage when dps-ing. The good news is that DKs will still be a good way to tell who's going to be the weak link in the PuG."
I post this because I'd like to know if DKs ever feel this sort of, "oh, no" vibe coming from PuGs they join just based on the class they play. Anyone care to comment? I know I've been involved in PuGs that have gone, "great, a DK tank." I've not had any problems with them, however.
Cyno01 Apr 7th 2010 5:46PM
My 2nd alt is a pretty well geared (2950 wowheroes) 2h frost tank, I don't raid much on him, but i get that a bit in VoA and the weeklies. It seems like te attitude is, ok well we've been lf a tank for 15 minutes, I guess well take a dk. After a few pulls tho people are usually like, wow a dk who knows how to tank. I frequently receive compliments on my tanking in heroics, although it helps that aoe frost tanking in heroics is facerollingly easy.
There's a lot of crappy dks out there, mostly because evryobe has one and they're usually their second or third alt, so they don't bother to learn how to play them.
icepyro Apr 7th 2010 3:35PM
To have a DK class in the first place is hard work. It was 'new' to the game. Even if they had kept the initial idea of a dedicated tanking tree, we would have still seen a lot changes each patch. A lot of balancing was on DPS and PvP stuff anyways. There was one change to Frost presence and I don't recall much else to the tanking talents. So change was going to happen each major patch anyways. Heck, the old classes that had been around for years were seeing a major change or two each patch.
Yes, it is hard to balance it, but Blizzard chose to try and now, they succeed. It still feels like mastery is in the way of continuing that rather than a 41 point talent called mastery for the 3rd benefit and leaving the other 2 alone or some other solution.
The reason this bums me out the most is because it takes away flavor. Sure, lore and flavor always take a backseat to mechanics, but Blizzard did try. It really wouldn't have been much of a stretch to broaden the other hybrid tank classes into having a dps and tank spec. It's still funny to have this barbaric fury warrior have to stand down to the prot warrior with his stick and shield, to lead the charge into the mobs (yet another reason Garrosh shouldn't be warchief, he's obviously fury and has no desire to let any real tanking class help him). Actually what I was really hoping for is as an instrument of righteous vengeance, I could lead a party to meet out retribution upon the wicked. I guess I must be protected by having someone else lead the way (ironically as in they go first, not as in they do anything to protect me or guide me, I still heal the sucker or fight the same mobs he's protecting me from).
Musings aside, the real question is how they will incorporate the various playstyles into one conglomeration. Blood has 2h specialization in its tree. Will this be moved to Unholy and will DW even be an option? I would like to see Blood tank with things that help DW and 2h low enough in the other trees to pick up. Thus Blood has the abilities to perform the job and the offspec be about flavor of how to fight. If they force the mold of DKs are now 2h weapon Blood tanks the way blood tanks are now, they really will have killed all that made DKs cool for me. I guess mine can go back to being the bank alt if this turns out to be the case.
Charneldeath Apr 7th 2010 3:39PM
Everyone QQing about Frost being a DPS tree is either 1) A bad DK tank who can't hold threat unless its HB spam. 2) A bad DK tank who used either tanking one handers or just fast weapons pre IT buff. 3) A bad DK tank who enjoyed watching HB crits whilst tanking for larger DPS numbers. 4) A bad DK tank who obviously doesn't care about his/her survivability because if they did, they would have speced Blood 5) A bad DK tank who doesn't care about single target TPS cause if they did, they would have speced Blood.
Just because you've tanked some heroics and zerged the first wing of ICC 10 does not mean you know what you're talking about. Anyone who actually did the research and cared about being the best tank they could be has been Blood pretty much since 3.1 or so.
I know I'm going to get downrated but who cares. Blood has been VASTLY superior tank tree for almost a year. AoE TPS? Toss a DnD, spread your diseases, hit a blood boil, or a couple of tab Heart Strikes. Problem solved. Also: Be glyphed for DnD. Giving DK's 3 DPS specs, 3 Tanking specs and then trying to give them PvP talents had to be insane from a design point.
I'm sorry you are no longer going to be able to HB your way through Heroics. You're actually going to have to learn how to use your runes properly, unless GC's hints radically change the design of that as well. I'm not trying to be mean, but come on! Frost hasn't been "the tanking tree" since frickin WotLK Beta! And if you 1) didn't know the previous fact 2) Didn't spec blood for non heroic tanking then how can your opinion on the matter be valid? Cause you obviously were doing it wrong!
nikdaheratik Apr 7th 2010 7:03PM
And everyone who makes generalizations about people's abilities based solely on their talent tree preferences is either:
1) An idiot.
2) A smug idiot.
or 3) Really bad at critical thinking.
Blood is best for Main tanking solely due to the fact that they have more health and slightly more useful cooldowns then the other two. In terms of AoE (think off tank in Onyxia) the are worse than either frost, which has much better snap aggro, or unholy, which has some ramp up time, but actually buffs caster AoE so they things can be killed faster. But when you look at the play style for tanks, there's really not that much difference.
What I don't see how actually using your spells properly, and having that result mean you get to have AoE threat generation that is close to a prot pally, means that you're somehow "misusing your runes". Guess what, there's a two button difference between how a blood tank pulls in a heroic and how a frost tank pulls an AoE back in a heroic. On boss fights, there's not even that much difference. The fact that you seem to think that makes all blood tanks "super awesome uberleet haxx", and frost tanks "zomg dumb nubs" says more about your own stupidity than anything else I need to post.
Charneldeath Apr 7th 2010 7:37PM
Vampiric Blood is far more useful then say Unbreakable Armor. Health from Blood Tap just as much. Instead of getting defensive over your Howling Blast spam, why not reread. My point was the UH and Frost are next to useless outside of 5 mans. Ony whelps lol? So one fight(and a damn easy one), from a previous tier is your argument? It takes more labor and awareness to Blood tank and hold threat on AoE then any other DK spec. It's a bit more then a two button difference my friend. However with some practice anyone can do it. You just have to be aware of your runes, something lots and lots of DK's aren't.
My point was the anyone who even did a small amount of research has known its been Blood from 3.1 on. If you cared about survivability, you tanked blood. If you cared about CD's you tanked blood. If you cared about TPS, you tanked blood. If you didn't know or care you specced whatever. It's FACT blood has been THE tank spec for DK's since 3.1. Well for DK's who know where EJ is at least. I'm pretty damn sure I can generalize that most guilds with DK's who tanked outside of blood never cleared anything besides Naxx and ToC. If your MT's don't care about doing thier jobs to the best of their ability, then why would the rest of the raid.
TL:DR Any spec outside of Blood belongs only in 5 mans other then remote and rare circumstances where it goes from suck to semi ok. It's been that way since 3.1.
jbodar Apr 7th 2010 11:21PM
This is exactly why the change IS bullcrap. Frost stopped being ideal for raiding long ago, and people who ran Heroics as Frost/UH tanks were suddenly forced to spec Blood if they wanted to be competitive. What happened to "any tree can tank"? The writing has been on the wall for a while, but the message still blows.
Clydtsdk-Rivendare Apr 7th 2010 3:46PM
Like I said. IMO, Blizz, if you want to go this route:
Blood = 2H Tanking, "resilient" PVP
Frost = DW Tanking, DW DPSing, utility/stun-based PVP
Unholy = 2H DPSing, damage-focused PVP
Thus you have 4 PVE trees and three/four PVP trees (I suppose Frost will have two playstyles depending on whether you go with primarily DPS or tank talents).
I also wonder what'll become of the spec CDs, VB, UBA, and Bone Shield.
In my own little world they become 21-point talents so that Blood can pick UBA or Bone Shield up and tank with it and VB. Meanwhile, UH/Frost can have both (perhaps popping both, because their one-rune costs can be rather awkward) as DPS cooldowns. (Interestingly, this would result in a tri-cooldown spec, so perhaps the crit reduction will have to be buried deep in Blood, or maybe not, IDK)
I'd also like to see what they do with Mark of Blood and Bloodworms.
catharsis80 Apr 7th 2010 4:01PM
Makes me wonder what they're going to do with Dancing Rune Weapon, since it's best use is DPS, and what they'd put in its place.
Thayer Apr 7th 2010 6:45PM
I really enjoy my dps blood dk and never wanted to play unholy or frost... I hope they juggle things around to make my two handed smashing still viable.
Akurano Apr 7th 2010 7:05PM
Blood is now tanking?. Before we dive into the more specifics about tanking in WoW, i'd like to point out that I've always felt that Frost had that tank feel, just like how Ice Block protects the mage, I've always felt that that ice stuff signified the sturdiness of tanking, while Blood was made to believe as a more DPS tree, in which you make your opponents bleed, and having a San' Layin feel to it like in Icecrown. This is my personal opinion since' i'm a major lore nerd when it comes to WoW. Now to dive into the game aspect.
When it comes to centralizing the tanking tree, I generally agree with what's happening. I'm a primarily DPS DK, but have experimented with Tanking as much as i could, frequently being off-tank, but trying main-tank once in a while. I've also played a 64 prot pally whom I use to tank frequently through the dungeon finder. Comparing the 64 paladin tank to my level 80 dk Tank spec leads me to believe that DK tanks never have that extra umph that all the other classes that tank do. As the Ghostcrawler article about DK tanking has stated, it feels like it's watered down since the tree seems to try and accomplish so much. The Paladin has many emergency tanking abilities at their disposal including Hand of Salvation, Righteous Defense, Bubbles, Holy Shield, and countless others that buff it and get it ready for any situation, even a well placed Exorcism saves lives. Yet when tanking as a Death Knight, it's the situation of constantly holding down the threat, and if any of the mobs peel off, then you're pretty much screwed over. You have a Dark Command, Death Grip, and Death Coil as your only real choices to get back agro.
So because of this, DK tanks ahve earned a bad reputation, and focusing the DK tank tree will definitely improve that. I appreciated the work Blizzard did in experimenting with the different trees, it was really fun. I've played a Frost DPS before moving on to Blood DPS, and both were incredibly fun. On a certain level, i'm glad that Frost will be primarily DPS again because playing DPS with multi-crit Howling Blast is.... what can i say? Incredibly satisfying. Anyway, because of this centralization of tanking spec, DK tanks will be much more prevalent, and I bet that they can even out-tank druids in that respect once they get their talents together under one bunch.
I already know that there was Frost DPS change, but it seems that frost always felt tank-ish as explained above.
erico Apr 7th 2010 7:36PM
The "lore" or "feel" aspects of the upcoming change don't bother me. What bothers me is that the we lose the uniqueness of the Death Knight as a hero class (in essence, greater complexity and flexibility in its gameplay). Now we're stuck with one role for each tree, perhaps one or two viable hybrid specs, just like every other class. Ho-hum.
I was able to tailor my DK to my own personal play style in a way that was impossible with every other class. It's a big bummer to lose that.
I can only imagine the additional balance work they needed to put in on the DK, but that's the price you pay for offering a hero class. Now we've lost our hero class and woohoo we've got another flavor of warrior.
Sad feeling :(
kdeselms Apr 7th 2010 8:25PM
With these changes, presences almost seem pointless to me. Honestly, how often do other DK's find that they switch presences, unless they're switching specs? I never do.
lethian Apr 7th 2010 9:13PM
i really don't care for this change flat out, i love blood dps, I'm unholy at the moment but i was blood for the majority of the time i been playing my DK this really makes me sad for my class......
BoomingEchoes Apr 8th 2010 4:46PM
Any one else find it fun that this is Blizzards round-a-bout way of
telling us they know they failed? I mean 2 years ago they had such
high hopes riding on DK's bringing in loads of tanks that they felt
were missing from the game yet they just bred another class where
everyone cared so much more about dps then tanking.. Then they
couldn't keep all 3 trees viable for the role and now need to fold
the role into one place...
It just seems strange to me though that they picked Blood.. Honestly
I could have seen them take dual wielding out of Frost and put it in
blood to make it that much better for dps while making frost a 2h magical tanking exclusive tree.. For some reason a dual wielding Blood DK with worms coming out of no
where and Rune weapons flying about sounds a lot more dps worthy then what should be a slow moving ice tank.. Its like a whirling dervish vs an air conditioner-Let the hunky piece of cold metal and freon tank, I bet it could take the damage better.. it also seems strange because they spent the better part of 2 years making Blood worth having around at all for a reason other then supplementing Unholy and now that they finally got it in a spot where people like it they're going to change it up again..
And aside from that I really hope they do some great things to improve Blood tanking if its going to be the exclusive tree because I don't find it to be in a very good place right now despite what people are saying.. I haven't encountered 1 Blood tank in the current iteration that can hold aggro for longer then 5secs even when the dps waits for them to get it, though I have found plenty failed groups with them present who end up disbanding because of it.
TheMightySatan Apr 12th 2010 4:38PM
I can understand the reasons they are making the changes that they are. And blood does make sense to go full tanking, but to only have one viable spec to be 2h in is disappointing to say the least. I remember when 2h frost was bad ass dps, I hope they make it that frost 2h comes back. Don't have much interest in Duel wielding and i don't want to be forced to always have to manage a pet if i want to play with a 2hander.