Cataclysm Class Changes: Death knight analysis, page 3


Blood
Damage reduction
Vengeance
Healing Absorption
Healing Absorption: When you heal yourself, you'll receive an additional effect that absorbs incoming damage.
Damage reduction
Vengeance
Healing Absorption
Healing Absorption: When you heal yourself, you'll receive an additional effect that absorbs incoming damage.
Vengeance : This new mechanic is designed to ensure that tank damage output (and therefore threat) doesn't fall behind as damage-dealing classes improve their gear during the course of the expansion. All tanking specs will have Vengeance as their second talent tree passive bonus. Whenever a tank gets hit, Vengeance will grant a stacking Attack Power buff equal to 5% of the damage done, up to a maximum of 10% of the character's unbuffed health. For boss encounters, we expect that tanks will always have an Attack Power bonus equal to 10% of their health. The 5% and 10% bonuses assume 51 talent points have been put into the Blood tree; these values will be smaller at lower levels.
This may very well be the most solid set of masteries for the class from what we know so far. Blood's big tank weakness has always been a lack of proactive damage reduction, and here it is, the first mastery stat. Vengeance should nicely make up for all the DPS talents we can only assume are leaving the blood tree.
Healing absorption is, in theory, a relatively decent skill, but only assuming blood gets some really massive self-healing or the healing absorption itself is a lot. In theory, the streamlining of talents will probably be designed to allow or even encourage blood tanks to pick up, say, Mark of Blood and Rune Tap, which will probably be some of the mainstays for activating this ability, although they will probably need to be buffed from their current totals to be worthwhile. Again, what we need here are solid numbers so we can make real judgments on the abilities here. The other concern might be that if blood death knights are so focused on self-healing, it gives an extra dimension to their tanking that may make blood tanking more frantic than other tanks. Still, it does at least sound like a more dynamic and interactive third mastery than the other two death knight trees, so overall I'm going to be cautiously optimistic about this one until we get more numbers.
ZarhymFrost
Melee damage Melee Haste
Runic Power Generation
Runic Power Generation: This will function as the name implies, and the new rune system will make generating Runic Power more appealing.
The relative merit of the frost tree masteries, again, will probably be more evident once we know more about the numbers behind the new runic power system. If we have more down time, though, having more runic power to keep spamming Frost Strikes could in theory be very useful. The large gaps of downtime in rune recharging can filled with runic power attacks. Of course, the usual caveats apply. This assumes the numbers properly line up and we have a decent selection of runic power abilities so that we're not just mindlessly spamming Frost Strike. I'm also concerned about the melee haste mastery. Can they make plain old melee haste valuable to frost again, and valuable to both 2-hand wielders and dual-wielders?
ZarhymUnholy
Melee damage Melee and spell critical damage
Disease Damage
Disease Damage: Unholy death knights will be able to get more out of their diseases, which are integral to the tree's play style.
Given that unholy already does a lot of melee damage through weapon strikes, and uses critical strikes both for Scourge Strike and for Wandering Plague, the first two masteries seem solid enough. Given that we do do a pretty solid amount of disease damage, the third one is solid too and likely considered a replacement for Crypt Fever.
Still, my concern again is that the third mastery is sort of a completely unremarkable workhorse. Where shadow priests are summoning balls of pure shadow energy, balance druids are getting a sun and moon damage meter, and Arcane Mages are getting a mastery that makes them balance mana recovery and damage dealing, both frost and unholy death knights are getting some near-invisible workhorse bonuses. Now, I know we're hardly the only specs stuck with that fate, but It's still a bit of a bummer, especially for unholy who, as I've mentioned, has had a lot of their flash and unique style removed for the sake of balance. It's possible Blizzard will balance this out with cool talent toys, but for now, I feel like that if you're going to give some classes cool toys and interesting mechanics for their third mastery, you should do it for everyone. Give me Crypt Fever for my extra disease damage, and let me use my third mastery to proc some form of the Bone Shield we lost, or maybe randomly summon Army of the Dead-type minions to fight at my side (without taunting) for a few minutes. I want something that either challenges me to add a new dimension to my DPS rotation, or something that makes me look flashier when it procs.
As long as we're on the subject of unholy, I should remark that I was a bit concerned not to see disease clipping addressed in the notes. It is a DPS loss and a concern for us as well, especially since unholy is more or less forced to disease clip to keep Ebon Plaguebringer up. Considering most other DoT classes and specs got it, I'd like to see it for us too. That said, it's possible we are getting it, but it was not put in our preview for some reason. Again, we need the beta so we can check on this stuff for sure.
Frost 2-handers and other notes by Zarhym
So of course, after we got all this stuff out of the way, Zarhym and Ghostcrawler did chime in later with some comments and clarifications. We've covered some of them above, but there were a few more things Zarhym said that I wanted to cover.
ZarhymHere are a few points of clarification:
- We want to provide a 2-handed style for Frost since we recognize that pets are an acquired taste. We think we have the design space to do that now that we don't need to support Frost tanking. We're definitely committed to making Frost work as a dual-wield tree though -- that isn't going away...
- We're not sure how we're going to handle presences yet. We recognize the oddness of Blood death knights playing in Frost Presence and Frost death knights not playing in Frost Presences. We might rename the presences or take some other action.
The 2-hand frost news is of course welcome for those death knights who don't want to deal with pet control. Me, I love my ghoul (even if I do wish he was a geist), so I'll be sticking to unholy DPS most of the time. Of course, we'll need to watch closely in beta to make sure 2-hand and dual wield styles are properly balanced against each other. They've had trouble balancing both in the past, but they seem to believe that they can make it work now that they don't have to also fit in frost tank talents -- which may well be true.
As far as presences, I honestly have no problem using them interchangeably, but chances are they'll redesign them or at least name-change to make it less confusing for newbie death knights. I wonder if they'll just straight up change the name on Frost Presence to Blood Presence and vice versa, or if they'll do some redesigning now that blood could genuinely use the health steal on Blood Presence for their third mastery.
The bottom line
The bottom line is this: We need more information. We have some bare-bones indications of how things will change in the basic mechanics of the rune system and the announcement of the blood true's role as the exclusive tank tree. However, without the added benefit of information on the new rune and runic power costs of abilities, we can't do more than speculate on how this will work out. The same goes for talents and masteries.
In addition, I'm a bit concerned that all the new abilities past level 80 are solidly PvP-oriented and have only limited applicability in PvE. That said, we do have a pretty solid skill set in PvE already, and there's at least some hope that the talent redesign will shore up and spice up many existing rarely used abilities.
I'm also hoping that Blizzard remembers to allow each tree to retain a signature look and feel that establishes it as unique and fun to play beyond just the mechanics alone. This is especially concerning because the developers are moving one of unholy's last truly iconic unique skills, Bone Shield, to blood, and because the two DPS trees have decidedly lackluster, unglamorous third masteries compared to some other specs.
I have to say for now that I'm cautious, anxious to see some problems fixed (or to get some hands-on experience with them in beta and find out they aren't problems after all) and impatient for the beta. We can't really move forward until we have either the beta or more solid numbers. Without those in mind, we can only look at the report and think, "Well, I suppose this feels like it might work." Knowing that we have a new rune system and a massive shuffling of talents only goes so far when we don't know how we'll be spending those runes, how we'll be filling the new gaps between rune usage, and what talents will survive, which will get axed and which will get moved. Once we know that, we can move forward.
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
ChaosBolt Apr 10th 2010 11:40PM
Yeap.
I know we're going to find out a lot more about this as time goes on, but I'll state here nice and early that I'm not thrilled about this. Unless they move some abilities to runic power that I don't think they will (Chains of Ice, any pvp death knights out there? I know the majority of people reading and writing this website prefers pve...). And I think runic power costs for abilities might need to be lowered if 100 runic power is going to be the non-frost DK cap.
To elaborate:
In pvp, I hit chains of ice to try and get into melee range or peel. It gets dispelled. The druid shifts. The rogue pops CoS. The warrior charges back onto the healer. The warlock ports (maybe ;P). Etc etc. And now I have no frost rune for 10 seconds (because letting runes sit without using them in pve or pvp is not going to happen). And now I have no FU strike to hit unless I made two death runes 20 (!!) seconds ago.
In pve, my tanking DK is going to need to wait between pulls for all his runes to regenerate simply so he can have threat. Today this takes a maximum of ten seconds, and usually doesn't hold me up. In 4.0 it'll take me twenty seconds. Not the end of the world. But not a nice change. They could always make Death and Decay free...
In pve, my DPS DK...well. I suppose we'll see. But if there's a point where I have no runes and no runic power and I'm just auto-attacking because some kids have poor latency and their DPS...*sadface*
Here's hoping I'm wrong on all of these...
GrumblyStuff Apr 11th 2010 12:49AM
@ChaosBolt
The way I'm interpreting their explanations is that slower strikes are intentional and that they will adjust rune usage accordingly. FU strikes (Oblit, SS, DS) might be broken into individual runes and/or spells/abilities that use runes might be switched to runic power (and, presumably, the cost will be lowered or runic power generation will be increased).
eclipse Apr 10th 2010 7:10PM
Rename and re-render Bone Shield as Gore Shield imho.
Redielin Apr 10th 2010 7:10PM
/agree with Daniel. You're both saying the same thing. I thought he wasn't quite getting it right either, but really when you come down to it, the overall effect of this will be a bigger rune blackout phase. The DK rune blackout phase is just like the Rogue blackout phase for energy, when you can't do anything until you get more resource back. Right now, DKs have 6 energy bars and every time one caps they are losing DPS, as well as if they let RP cap. Basically, DKs have 7 ways to lose DPS from capped resources right now, and Blizzard is halving their regen rate and eliminating 3 of the mini-caps. This keeps DKs from being punished quite as much for having runes off CD.
Piper Apr 10th 2010 7:11PM
If I understand the new spell system correctly there won't be an 'Rank 1 Earth Shock' spells. All of the spells will scale with your level and not have specific ranks. Thus the Dark Simulacrum might be a bit harder to counter.
Clydtsdk-Rivendare Apr 10th 2010 7:33PM
That's kinda what he said...
Redielin Apr 10th 2010 7:47PM
Combat Rogue gets the same bonus, as I believe a couple other melee classes (fury warrior) got it. My feeling is that most likely that haste will be of the regen variety or otherwise that's a very poor bonus for a (All the) melee class(es).
Darky Apr 11th 2010 6:28AM
What about disease ticks, as I understand uh dks focus a lot on disease damage in 4.0
cidninja Apr 10th 2010 7:51PM
i'm already really annoyed by people complaining about their class previews. why do people think blizzard doesn't know how to make their own game? honestly, if you look at a class preview and you instantly notice some sort of obvious problem that is TOTALLY GOING TO RUIN MY CLASS, guess what? they already fuckin thought of it. they probably have a solution already or are going to fix it in the beta. just let them do their thing and be glad you get a peek at all.
Omegan01 Apr 11th 2010 1:15AM
" i'm already really annoyed by people complaining about their class previews. why do people think blizzard doesn't know how to make their own game? "
If you lived through things like Reckoning, the blood plague, and the original rage normalization, you would understand why some folks might be a little nervous about such major changes.
DeathPaladin Apr 11th 2010 1:32PM
While discussing various class changes on another board, one poster made a very good point:
Class previews are a lot like a movie teaser. It doesn't give out much information, but the goal is for the revealed info that is exciting and makes it so people can't wait for the full version.
What you got in the Cataclysm class previews are some people who are excited (mission accomplished), but just as many, if not more, people who are ambivalent or underwhelmed (which is a problem).
And then there are people who are now *dreading* the next expansion because of these previews. Such as Blood DPS (going away), Frost tanks (going away), Arcane Mages (being penalized for dpsing), and Warriors who are apprehensive about rage normalization or concerned that the changes in the Warrior preview does little, if anything, to address their scaling issues. So for many, the previews were completely counterproductive.
And then there are the Paladins, who have to wait an extra week to see their changes because they are receiving yet another overhaul, which doesn't bode well for any Paladin that has good pattern recognition. The class has generally benefited overall with each expansion, but the beginning of each expansion has also generally started with a huge buff followed by a conga line of nerfs.
Euranne Apr 10th 2010 7:52PM
I think what is most dissapointing to me, and you touched on this, is that it sounds like it's going to become - boring. Who wants to sit and watch white damage all day long? I thoroughly enjoyed the aspect of having to know how all of your abilities worked down to the last little tidbit of information so that you could use all of your runes as efficiently as possible. I'm not sure I will enjoy a 'dumbed-down' system as it were. The system that is currently in place actually allows skill to play a factor in your effectiveness - this doesn't seem like it will.
I also understand and semi-agree with their decision to move tanking completely into one tree, but as a DK that really enjoys Blood DPS, I'm a little fearful of what that will happen with this change. I am surprised that they said " or those few of you who really liked Blood dps" as it seems a large majority of the DK DPS I see around is still Blood, but I digress. I am slightly encouraged by them making statements along the lines of working 2h DPS into the Frost tree as playing with a pet is a little more of a niche thing that some people just don't plain enjoy - if I wanted to have to use a pet, I would have rolled a hunter.
But like Daniel stated, it all boils down to we just plain need more information. I guess we'll have to get a glimpse at Beta before we can get any real solid ideas of what we'll be like post expansion. I don't care if we're the strongest / weakest / whatever, I just want to enjoy playing a DK as I have throughout all of Wrath.
Nazgûl Apr 10th 2010 8:53PM
Have my children.
I was going to type out a long response to this post and the changes in general, then I saw yours and saw that my work was done for me.
Alex Apr 10th 2010 8:06PM
I actually see one application in PvE for Outbreak. This is, admittedly, coming from the a view of the current system, so it should be taken with a grain of salt.
However, with current blood tanking, you can often go into a fight with two blood runes, and four death runes. As it is, if your group is AoE happy, you have to lay down Death and Decay to take immediate aggro. Which leaves you with One Blood, Two Death. Then you lay down diseases, which leaves you with One Blood. Then Pestilence, which leaves you with nothing.
With Outbreak, you can immediately apply disease, use pestilence, and then have two Death Runes to Blood Boil with, leading to more immediate aggro.
JoeHelfrich Apr 11th 2010 11:27AM
The main PVE application for Outbreak will be reapplying diseases after a stun/scripted event/forced movement. Lich King has involved a lot of this stuff, and I don't see that changing at all. I'd love to have it now for just that purpose.
icepyro Apr 10th 2010 8:15PM
Your article made me reread the changes several times. I thought you had it wrong, and then I thought I had it wrong, but now I think we both had it right but in different words.
One interesting thing about DSim that sticks out in my mind is that it is a debuff on the enemy unlike spell reflection which is a buff on the one who cast it. I apply the debuff to my enemy and the next time they cast a spell, I cast a copy. What this tells me is that the spell does not have to be targeted at me to be copied, nor do I have to necessarily have to be still targeting the debuffed mob.
That is my theory, which brings a very interesting mechanic to the table. For an example, a trash group has a caster in it. I DSim on Caster and change targets for whatever reason. Caster casts a spell at the tank. Does nothing happen since it's not targeted at me? Do I copy the spell at Caster? Do I copy the spell and hit my current target? My logic suggests the latter. Now that would make some interesting tactics and give it utility regardless of role.
As for the rest, I too am cautious. I like seeing that they are working on a 2h frost and that gives me hope that they recognize the problems with just changing things around and saying this is how it is. I would also like to see them put some of the DW that is in frost low (high?) enough for the other specs to pick it up. I know DW Unholy was popular and fun for a while (I know of a certain DW unholy tank until recent changes), and I also know DW tanking is possible now.
Nazgûl Apr 10th 2010 8:55PM
I have a feeling Blizzard intends to move away from Dual Wield tanking. If that were going to be a focus, Frost would make much more sense as the tanking tree. Blood has always been about two-handers, and as a tanking tree I feel confident that philosophy will remain.
icepyro Apr 10th 2010 9:19PM
Blood made sense because it requires the least rework. DW talents are inherently dps talents, although a DW tank needs them because you need the hit/damage to have even a chance at threat (seriously, my chance to miss more than doubles and my damage is reduced as well for holding another sword in my offhand rather than a shield or even nothing? You really do need the talents to balance that back to manageable).
Blood also had talents specifically for 2h. As such, you really had no options but to use 2h. It was the 2h tree. Now it's the tank tree. It can lose the 2h bit imo. Blood will have to make room for tanking talents from the other trees to come in, so it could stand to lose those 2h specific talents.
This opens it up to be like Unholy is now where the option is based on preference of the offspec tree. Unholy + frost = DW. Unholy + blood = 2h. Unholy doesn't have anything holding it back for weapons selection so it has seen utility to use 2h or DW depending on how the rest of the tree balanced and where they put those 2h and DW talents in the other trees.
My feeling is that if they move away from DW tanking, it's mostly by accident, neglect, or balance issues just like the unholy dw vs 2h issue has been and not because they truly 'intend' to do so. But then, the keys are speculative feelings and intention.
Twilight Apr 10th 2010 9:08PM
"As long as we're on the subject of unholy, I should remark that I was a bit concerned not to see disease clipping addressed in the notes. It is a DPS loss and a concern for us as well, especially since unholy is more or less forced to disease clip to keep Ebon Plaguebringer up. "
If you've been keeping track of locks/priests/etc the other dot classes, you'll find that clipping is being removed period.
From the warlock changes.
"All warlock damage-over-time (DoT) spells will benefit from crit and haste innately. Haste will no longer act to reduce the DoT's duration, but rather to add additional ticks. When reapplying a DoT, you can no longer "clip" the final tick. Instead, this will just add duration to the spell, similar to how Everlasting Affliction currently works."
From a priest answer
"Preventing dot clipping is something we want to do in general. It obviously benefits Shadow priests just as much as warlocks."
In other words, ticks will continue as is, so that it'll tick every 3 or less seconds based on haste. Each subsequent cast will refresh the duration *not* apply a new debuff which starts to tick then and there. You'll still lose a tick of two unless you apply it right after the final tick, but you won't create a 5.5s gap between ticks by reapplying a dot 2.5 seconds after the last tick.
atomicstrawberry Apr 10th 2010 9:46PM
The reason the notes are so sparse and underwhelming is because of that rune system change. The notes sort of mention it as if it's a minor point, but it's an absolutely fundamental change to the way we play, and because of it every current rotation goes out the window, every strike will need to be rebalanced in cost or damage, and generally I get the impression that at this point the entire class has been dismantled and they're not entirely sure how the pieces will fit back together again.