Know Your Lore: Current Horde politics -- the Forsaken, page 2

Yes, all forms of life. This means not just the Scarlet Crusade, but also the rest of humanity, the Alliance, the Horde and every player in the game. Everyone.
There were some suspicions regarding the Society's motives and regarding the Forsaken themselves, but by and large, Sylvanas and her people were left to their own devices. The Horde, it seemed, were clueless. It made very little sense to me as well, but the Burning Crusade attempted to expand a little more upon the Forsaken's odd activities, as well as shed some light on Sylvanas herself.
Somewhere between the fall of the Sunwell and the beginning of Burning Crusade, Sylvanas traveled to Quel'Thalas for her own reasons and ended up running into a former high elf named Dar'Khan Drathir. Dar'Khan held the distinction of being the greatest traitor known to the high elves, now blood elves -- he pledged his loyalty to Arthas and helped him slip through the Quel'Thalassian defenses. Dar'Khan was after Anveena, the human embodiment of what remained of the Sunwell -- and Sylvanas intended to stop him from doing it. While she wasn't successful, she did manage to distract him long enough for Anveena to regain her power and get rid of him. Sylvanas agreed to keep Anveena's identity a secret, not wanting Arthas to catch wind that the Sunwell he'd destroyed wasn't quite gone after all.

While initially tentative and unsure of her motivations, the blood elves eventually agreed to an alliance largely due to their own dwindling numbers and need for aid (and perhaps the slow realization that they were just as alone and isolated in the world as the Forsaken were). In addition to the alliance, Sylvanas went to Thrall and convinced him to take the blood elves in as allies under the Horde banner. Other than the forces in Tranquillien, the Forsaken were largely quiet for the Burning Crusade expansion, though there were rumors that Sylvanas traveled to and from Northrend either to scout for a possible attack on the Lich King or to establish a base in the north.
It wasn't until the end of Burning Crusade that the Forsaken showed up in force in Shattrath to "help" with the ongoing zombie infestation that signaled the beginning of Wrath of the Lich King. After all, who better to combat a seeming plague of undeath than the undead? The leader of the forces in Shattrath was Grand Apothecary Putress, a chief apothecary of the Royal Apothecary Society who was working on a cure for the plague that triggered the zombie event. Putress, appearing from seemingly out of nowhere, had never been seen until that point in time, and it was assumed he was just another apothecary, a clever one who had managed to work his way to the top.

Putress was under the opinion that the Forsaken never truly received the respect they deserved, that his people were doomed to a destiny of being seen as nothing more than living corpses to be reviled and looked upon with disgust, even by their supposed allies. He eagerly took on the task of creating the new plague of undeath but soon fell in with Varimathras and began to plan a coup d'état to remove Sylvanas from her throne and forcefully take control of the Undercity. Vengeance, in Putress' mind, was not enough -- he wanted the world to bow at his feet.
The Royal Apothecary Society worked tirelessly on the new plague that was developed for use in Northrend, called the Forsaken Blight, to perfect it so that it would be effective against Arthas and his Scourge ... and any living that happened to get in the way. Once completed, the blight was unleashed at Angrathar the Wrathgate, not only against Arthas but also against the combined forces of the Alliance and the Horde. It was only the efforts of the red dragonflight, whose flames neutralized the blight, that prevented it from spreading further and annihilating the living for good.

The attack was over, and while Sylvanas was in control once more, her abomination guards, which were created by the Royal Apothecary Society, were quickly replaced with the orcs of the Kor'kron Guard in an effort to keep a closer eye on the Forsaken. The Kor'kron are incredibly rude to undead players that speak to them:
However, Sylvanas seemed largely unconcerned, her focus being turned to something much larger: the eradication of the Lich King. She moved from the Undercity to Northrend, to lead an assault on Icecrown Citadel and hopefully destroy Arthas himself. After facing off with Arthas in single combat, Sylvanas realized that the Lich King's powers had increased so much that defeating him alone was impossible.
- I bet you rotters thought you were pretty clever at the Wrath Gate, didn't you? Playtime's over. We're here to make sure you don't try anything.
- What's wrong, bonebag? Looking for someone else? I'm all you've got now, so if you want something, make it quick.
- I'll tell you what you need to know, but I don't have to like it. We're watching you and your kind.
- Doctor Herbert Halsey is who you want. Just don't try anything funny. Any more of that plague nonsense and you'll find an axe in uncomfortable places. (when asking where the alchemy trainer is located)

So, it is done. I had not dared to trust my senses. Too many times has the Lich King made me to be a fool. Finally, he has been made to pay for the atrocities he imposed upon my people. May Azeroth never fail to remember the horrible price we paid for our weakness, for our pride. But what now, Hero? What of those freed from his grasp but still shackled to their mortal coils? Leave me. I have much to ponder.
What now, indeed. There are still several questions that remain unanswered surrounding the Forsaken, and there are several theories that could arguably be in play:
Sylvanas' redemption Sylvanas, over time, has begun to grow a little more heart. The addition and acceptance of the Forsaken to the Horde has softened her perspective on the living. The help from the Horde during the Undercity's capture and more notably in achieving the vengeance against Arthas that drove her all these years may have also had a hand in convincing her that an alliance with the living is not only possible but preferable to simply killing them all. The death of Arthas quieted the vengeance that burned in her heart, and now it is possible for her to approach the days ahead with hope for her people's ultimate acceptance by society.
Sylvanas' vengeance Sylvanas, possessing an incredibly shrewd and tactical mind, allied with the blood elves in the hopes of increasing the Forsaken's numbers as the blood elves slowly died out from magic withdrawal. However, the Horde was still breathing down her neck, and in addition, Varimathras was proving a more irritating presence by the day. To this end, she turned a blind eye to his machinations, fully aware that he was staging a coup -- and when he "took over" the Undercity, she quietly allowed it to happen. After all, not only would she be getting rid of a thorn in her side, but she'd look very much the helpless victim to her Horde "allies,' and the "betrayal" would absolve her of any involvement with the Forsaken Blight at the same time. With the death of Arthas, she and her people can now turn their attentions on bolstering their numbers, one corpse at a time -- as soon as they get rid of the pesky Kor'kron littering their halls.

Sylvanas' plight Sylvanas has no idea what's going on. She had a very solid reason for leading the Forsaken -- revenge against the man that tortured both her and the others she leads, the creature that cursed them to an un-life of grief and regret. But her people, who were at first so loyal to her cause, have turned against her, and with the one reason for her people's survival now taken care of, Sylvanas is left to deal with the aftermath of that betrayal. Without vengeance, what does Sylvanas have to drive her? Without the support of her people, how will she lead them to anything greater? And were the Forsaken working against her completely destroyed, or are there others that seek to undermine her rule? What are Sylvanas and the Forsaken as a whole supposed to do now?
The Forsaken are at a shaky crossroads, politically speaking: the trust they earned by working with the Horde was all but obliterated by the events of the Wrathgate. The Dark Lady seemed to have an iron grasp over her people but evidently underestimated those in her midst and lost control, leading to her flight from the Undercity. It can be argued that her loss of control is a major playing factor in current tensions between the Horde and the Alliance, which is why the Kor'kron are now watching the Forsaken so closely. Thankfully, Warchief Thrall is a decent sort who can definitely identify with dissension in the ranks and the merits of beating a tactical retreat. He wouldn't hold something like a temporary loss of control against her, much less view it as an act of cowardice.

With imminent approach of Cataclysm, the Forsaken are the Horde faction that raise the most questions. With the quest for vengeance now over, will the Forsaken begin to work more closely with the Horde and try and atone for the mistakes made during the Wrathgate? Will we see the Forsaken splinter even further away from the core of the Horde and turn their efforts once more to eradicating the living? Will Sylvanas find a new cause for her people to rally under, or with the absence of Arthas, will she simply fall apart like Maiev, a huntress who is nothing without the hunt? Will the Forsaken find themselves accepted or even more ostracized than before -- and if the latter, how will they react? Will their tentative alliance with the Blood Elves strengthen, or will the restoration of the Sunwell remove any reason for association with the Forsaken? Most importantly -- what are they up to now?
Cataclysm should address at least some of these questions. Hopefully with the introduction of Gilneas and the worgen to the Alliance, the Forsaken will find themselves with new enemies to butt heads with instead of turning on their own -- but only time and the new expansion will tell.
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Reader Comments (Page 5 of 6)
nonentity Apr 11th 2010 1:30PM
Great... yeah, I'm imagining/dreaming up all this stuff, I never read a single piece of lore in my life... sure... how about you stop insulting people with such a demeaning opinion?
I am very interested the lore and read a lot of it, but I don't know everything (and I don't claim to, I try to base my writings on facts as much as possible, sometimes facts are open to interpretation though), neither do you probably you pompous ....
@1: Yeah, he wants to reclaim Lordaeron because it was a human kingdom but does the simple fact that it WAS a human kingdom give him the 'right' to conquer it? No, it doesn't. He wants to, but he does not necessarily have the moral highground there.
@2: yeah... what's your point?
@3: that's a piece of lore I knew but forgot, stupid me, being human and not remembering every single piece of Warcraft lore perfectly... but I was wrong there, I won't deny that, that pretty much negates my whole post about the Scarlets
@4: Yes, they embrace their new condition. 'They decorate everything with skulls'.. seriously? Does that alone make them evil? No.
They are probably the closest thing to 'evil' we have in playable races, I don't deny that. But you don't know why things turned out this way. That was my entire point. That they did not necessarily start out 'evil' after regaining their free wil but hurt, wronged and only turned 'evil' after being mistreated by the very people they wanted to reconnect with.
I am no longer sure that's the way things happened so I won't insist in this being true.
I was wrong there and I'll write just that in my other post further down.
I'm happy (well, happy is probably the wrong word...) to admit when I'm wrong but in a normal discussion talking down to other people has on place. Regarding Lore we're all more or less on the same level, passive users, we read about it, we experience it, we don't create it. The only one that has the right to act haughty is ie. Metzen.
"You're wrong and here is why, the facts." No problem with that, that is ok.
"Try to read some lore, will'ya? ;)" is not.
And yes, I know this is the internet and trolling is commonplace and something you have to deal with, but stuff like this pisses me off.
Dreyja Apr 11th 2010 3:38PM
@ nonentity - you're right, there's no reason to get insulting with each other. I disagreed with you but I hope I didn't sound cruel or condescending about it. :)
I don't "get" the monstrous behavior of the Forsaken and cannot equate it with the Worgen but I see where you are coming from. I've heard the whole, "they were rejected by their living friends and family," thing but I've seen no real evidence of this. Still, to my mind nothing justifies Sylvanas' actions so that is my clear bias. Yeah, I love the heros who do the right thing, even after they've been treated badly.
:) All good - we're all lore-nerds here. If I ever react in a way that is personal, please call me on it.
nonentity Apr 11th 2010 3:53PM
Nope Dreyja, no problem there.
I based my Worgen - Forsaken comparision on the idea that the Forsaken were not inherently evil but changed because of the way they had been treated. Seeing as I was wrong there (forgot about the whole Sylvanas/Garithos business) and they started betraying humans (even if it was Garithos that racist prick) I can't explain their behavior that way anymore. I don't really get it now either.
As someone in my other post/reply said, this is an imporant piece of information and should be in the article, it is a piece of the puzzle that is Forsaken behavior.
Dreyja Apr 11th 2010 4:58PM
Ah well... I fail w/ this comment system all the time. I missed the other part of the conversation for a while. :) REALLY wtb EDITING in here! ;)
MightyBurebista Apr 11th 2010 6:42PM
@1: Yeah, he wants to reclaim Lordaeron because it was a human kingdom but does the simple fact that it WAS a human kingdom give him the 'right' to conquer it? No, it doesn't. He wants to, but he does not necessarily have the moral highground there.
O....K. Let's imagine that Scotland gets taken over by the Taliban. Or by a cult who worships the Flying Spaghetti Monster, whatever. The people in England organize a resistance to reclaim Scotland from those monsters who violently grasped it from them. They have the moral highground, because those who conquered it beforehand have no morality to speak of whatsoever.
(I used Taliban because if I had used Nazis, I would've applied Godwin's Law, and that would've made me lsoe the argument automatically)
nonentity Apr 12th 2010 12:18AM
The Forsaken did not invade Lordaeron (I'm talking about the 'core kingdom' now, not as far spread as Hillsbrad for example), the Scourge did. The Forsaken were only unwilling participants at that point. In Lordaeron kingdom there is pretty much no living being left as far as we know. They then moved in/took over.
You do have a point but it's not the same situation imo. To the people outside the.... 'invading organisation' it may not make any difference but there is one.... small as it is.
Using your example - the Taliban killed everyone in... say... Edinburgh and the area around it with some sort of WMD. A somewhat big part of those Taliban then... had qualms... whatever.... and decided to move into the area and afterwards do the same thing as the guys before, just in a different... way.... fuck.... the Forsaken doing pretty much the same thing as the Scourge just on a smaller scale makes defending them really fucking hard.... damn... hate admitting it (also because if fucks with my image of this part of the Lore) but (said I would if I was wrong) but seems I was was wrong.
I wish Blizzard had written the story the (wrong) way I remembered it, that they only turned bitter and hateful after being rejected by the living. Would have been more 'realistic' I think.
Them just getting free of the grasp of the Lich King and immediately adopting his 'kill everything living' idea does not make a whole lot of sense imo.
They have been driven insane? Easy way out. Probably a factor but can't be the sole reason for their decisions.
FFS they want to 'cure' their undeath, which could mean
a) return to living
b) die for good.
b) is easily achievable even now afaik, even in the lore, we did kill tons of 'undead' in WC3 and they didn't just come back.
Same for a lot of Warcraft comics/books. The undead are not immortal. So we can only assume that if they wanted to die for good (a reasonable reaction in this situation imo) they could have done so already.
So they want to go back to living.
So why do they want to kill all the living before that? Yes, maybe not ALL Forsaken want to do that but by now we know (Royal Apothecracy Sociaty, their quests, Sylvanas supposedly supporting the idea (was brought up a lot in Wrathgate discussions) that a main part of them does.
They always had two main goals, killing Arthas and finding a cure for their condition. Now that one has been achieved, what about the other? Or do we have to assume that the whole 'finding a cure' business was only a cover, that they're happy enough to 'live' on like this for... all eternity? Is a very, very big part of the official lore on the Forsaken just a lie? How does that make any damn sense?
Same thing for the thing Thrall wanting peace yet revering 'war criminals' like Doomhammer, which makes his desired peace pretty much impossible.
Blizzard does not always make the best choices it seems...
MightyBurebista Apr 12th 2010 4:08PM
Well, I would say Blizzard makes everything complicated and convoluted on purpose, to force us (those who actually care, and not just play to hit things with swords) to wrack our brains over issues like this and question our moral positions. Part of it is making us question whether Thrall was right in elevating members of the Old Horde to the status of war heroes and whether the Forsaken actually want salvation (and thus should be helped) or only want destruction (and thus should not be trusted).
Anyway, I like the direction this discussion went; I was actually expecting a more angry response, but you replied in an intelligent manner. I was pleasantly surprised by the way the discussion evolved, and I thank you for that. :)
nonentity Apr 12th 2010 5:27PM
Same here. I really like the Warcraft lore and enjoy discussions such as this. Even if doesn't always the way one might imagine as long as they as people 'talk' to each in other in a more or less polite way I don't mind it even if it turns out I was wrong starting out. Of course I'd rather be right, but still ;). I'd rather know the correct lore.
That's also way I really enjoy these articles, even if I don't always agree completely with the author. They promote discussion.
Alaskan Apr 11th 2010 8:00AM
It is really great that you put time and effort into blog posts like these, much appreciated as they are a great read, and very interesting.
nonentity Apr 11th 2010 9:51AM
I don't think I portrayed the Alliance as a whole as racist, nor the humans. I did specifically mention that the Scarlets would have to drop their racial hatred toward Dwarves etc. or a least hide it for them to get along.
The idea was more along the lines of "Scarlets racist against everythin non-human but they'll grind their teeth and pretend it isn't so in regards to Alliance races but still hate all out on the Horde races" and "Alliance hates Horde" and Alliance Horde hate" and "Scarlet Horde hate" would lead to "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" situation for the Alliance.
I don't think many in the Alliance would give a flying fart whether the Scarlets hate the Horde because of racist views or because of some other reason.
I forgot about Hillsbrad, Southshore being in the vicinity. Makes sense some refugees went there.
But - and I believe that was also mentioned some time in the Forsaken history somewhere - the real hatred between the Forsaken and the living began when the living rejected the Forsaken, their fallen comrades essentially.
Both the survivors of Lordaeron as well as the Forsaken have equally good claims on Lordaeron, although personally I still think the Forsaken have a better one, ffs, they literally died for their country (defending it or not doesn't matter there I think).
After they came back they more or less defended it and cleared it from the Scourge, somewhat, and now the survivors, who fled, want to drive them out? What gives them, they who left, the right to do that?
Or even more so, what gives some other kingdom the right to annex Lordaeron?
The living hate the Forsaken, ok, I can buy that, whether or not the Forsaken were mistreated, they are the ... ahem... 'living' reminder of a terrible time. But that they seriously think they have the right to drive them out, that's what irks me.
The Forsaken are 'living' beings, they think for themselves, they have been monstrously wronged.
The Worgen are pretty much the same, they are just lucky that the Alliance has not had any major beef with other Worgen in the past otherwise they'd get the same treatment as the Forsaken.
To illustrate my point better and steer away from the racism issue (might be I got heated up in my own hatred for the Scarlets and the Alliance there and thus expressed my point wrong, I am Horde after all ;P) - bring up the Worgen.
I especially dislike the Worgen joining the Alliance for this reason, I can see no major difference between Forsaken and Worgen other than the fact that there has been a war with undead and no war with Worgen. And the Worgen have been lucky enough to find some sort of cure, albeit a temporary one, that lets them assume their human forms at least some of the time. Something the Forsaken were not able to do.
Both races have been 'transformed' into something monstrous without any fault of their own. Both were 'human' kingdoms in the past.
The Worgen were just lucky in that there was no equivalent to the Lich King for them, who controlled their thoughts and actions entirely. If there had been someone like that and thrown the Worgen against the Alliance, how would that have turned out...
Yet look at the outcome, the treatment of the Worgen and the Forsaken could not possibly be any more different.
How would the Worgen have reacted, changed, if the Alliance had treated them with the same hatred as they did the Forsaken?
I think they might have ended up somewhat similiar, hating what they once were, other humans, for mistreating them in this way, hating them because of something that was done to them, through no fault of their own.
nonentity Apr 11th 2010 9:55AM
Damn... I don't like this comment system. Didn't reply to my post and forgot something, can't edit, yay...
How would the characterics of the Forsaken turned out to be if they had not faced abject hatred from other humans, from their surviving kin? Yes, they may still have been very bitter and hateful, but the whole 'kill every LIVING thing' originated there.
Somewhat of a passable example - Medusa.
She was a virgin, served Athene but then was raped in Athene's temple by Poseidon. Instead of showing compassion for this woman that had been horribly wronged Athene was furious at what Medusa had done (more what had been done to her.. didn't seem to matter though...) and as punishment (for being raped... yeah... awesome...) she transformed her into the monster of legend we all know.
Coik Apr 11th 2010 12:34PM
As I mentioned above (and which the article glossed over...did it in the orc article too with the demon blood, I'm noticing that Ms. Stickney has a tendency to leave out small but significant details that would embarrass the Horde), the Forsakens' first act as a free people was to betray and murder the remnants of the Alliance forces in Lorederon. That may have had something to do with any hostile reaction that the Forsaken received.
nonentity Apr 11th 2010 12:54PM
They did? When, where? My last playthrough of Warcraft 3 was quite a while back, I don't remember that.
Or rather I vaguely remember something betwen Sylvannas and Garithos.... I think... but wasn't Garithos serving one of the Dread Lords back then and that's the reason Sylvannas attacked his forces? or something... gotta check up on that... where to look.... *heads to wowwiki*
nonentity Apr 11th 2010 1:32PM
K, just read up on it, you're right.
While I won't pretend to feel any sympathy for him (Garithos deserved everything he got and more) that was definitely not a good way to start of political relations with the humans.
Goldteddy Apr 11th 2010 10:38AM
sooo when the horde side is done your gonna make a ally side?
really wanna hear abit about their team work
Cure Apr 11th 2010 6:17PM
Same here, as a horde player it should shed some light on the people I indiscriminately bash over the head.
Anyway they did cover the Draenai (although not with the politics prefix) and they've only done, Orcs, Forsaken and Blood Elves, that still leaves Taurens and Trolls, (Death Knights probably fall somewhere between Horde and Alliance).
james Apr 11th 2010 10:41AM
thanks alot for this artical and all the other's in the current horde politcs these all really intrest me and as i have only played WoW for a short time and have only played warcraft 3 clears up alot and explains things in a good amount of detail. i like the way you have said that they are particularly freandly with the blood elves but i still cant see why thrall let the forsaken in to the horde was it just out of sypathey? but really good artical thanks alot
Eldoron Apr 11th 2010 12:30PM
WTB dictionary
Squelchy Apr 11th 2010 10:44AM
You may have accidentally hit the "full wow.com experience" button. It now remembers your preference no matter what you type in. You'll need to clear your cookies in the Settings app.
Sindella Apr 11th 2010 10:48AM
WTB WIndrunner Sisters in-game reunion quest