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4-11-2010 @ 6:19AM
All the theories have some merit, I'm really looking forward to finding out what will happen to the Forsaken now.One point, not regarding the article per sé but more the story of the game itself. I still find it incredibly frustrating to see the Alliance wanting to "reclaim" Lordaeron, self-righetous jerks.Lordaeron was hit the hardest by the Scourge, Stormwind for example not at all as far as I know. I think it's safe to assume that pretty much everyone in Lordaeron was killed and maybe resurrected as a member of the Scourge. Yeah, some people may have fled but seeing that their annihilation originated in their 'prince', they never would have seen the ed coming so would not have had a lot of chances to prepare defenses, evacuation plans etc.So let's assume the main part of the people of Lordaeron was killed, whether or not they were resurrected afterwards. Only a small part fled, successfully, to ... where? Stormwind? Maybe, quite far away though. The kingdoms of Arathor, Stromgarde did not exist anymore at that time unless I'm mistaken (feel free to correct me there, that's one part of the Warcraft lore I don't have quite that firm a grasp on). Gilneas had closed its gate, I don't see them welcoming many refugees.Dalaran? They had their own annihliation to face.I guess it's safe to say that not a lot of people from Lordaeron are still alive.So the Forsaken are essentially the entire 'surviving' citizenship of Lordaeron. They died for their country, were forced to commit atrocities and after they regained their free will they drove the Scourge from it, more or less. Imo they are the only ones that have any real claim on Lordaeron. Why does Stormwind, Wrynn, the rest of the Alliance, imagine they have the right to waltz in and 'reclaim' something that never 'belonged' to them in the first place? They want to essentially wrest it from the only people who have the right to live there for their self-righteous reasons. They are no better than the Scarlet Crusade. I don't see why the Scarlets don't actually have a stronger standing in the Alliance, they think pretty much along the same paths. All Horde races = evil. Ok, they also hate Dwarves etc. all Non-Humans essentially, but not quite as much so they should get on fantastically...
4-11-2010 @ 6:26AM
"Gilneas had closed its gate, I don't see them welcoming many refugees"Yeah but that doesn't stop them, there a refugee camp just outside the wall of people trying to get access to Gilneas because its "safer"."Why does Stormwind, Wrynn, the rest of the Alliance, imagine they have the right to waltz in and 'reclaim' something that never 'belonged' to them in the first place?"The colonization of Africa and the Americas comes to mind. Its a human trait, people can justify the most outrages things."I don't see why the Scarlets don't actually have a stronger standing in the Alliance"Probably because their leader is a demon.
4-11-2010 @ 9:00AM
What's Balnazzar (I think that's the one) or, more recently, Mal'Ganis, got to do with it? Many of the Scarlets were Paladins or Priests in the first place and still they were foolish enough not to detect that their leader was possessed by a demon. I can't see the Alliance leaders finding out the truth about him/them.I'm pretty sure if the Scarlets dropped their racist ideology in terms of Dwarves, Elves etc., or at least hid them from the rest of the Alliance, and just hated on the orcs, Forsaken etc. Alliance and Scarlets they'd be BFFs.
4-11-2010 @ 9:15AM
Unless I'm mistaken, Hillsbrad and Southshore are supposed to have quite a large population of Lordaeron survivors, and some refugees did make it to Stormwind. Keep in mind that both Southshore and Stormwind are coastal towns with Harbors (granted, the in-game Harbor for Stormwind is more recent, though that doesn't stop ships from going there), so escapees from Lordaeron getting that far south is not entirely far fetched.Granted, compared to the original population, it's not a large percentage, but there are living citizens of the kingdom remaining. Granted, the ones in Hillsbrad have been getting picked off by the Forsaken for a while now.Also, that's a pretty broad brush to paint the whole of the Alliance in (though by your comments I assume you're referring to humans specifically). Sure, there are racist humans around (though most of the examples are actually in the Scarlet Crusade). Same as there are racist orcs, night elves, blood elves, or any other race. It irks me to no end, though, when people pin racism as a defining trait of humans in-game above all other races, since there's far more evidence of that not being as overwhelmingly true as people like to think. If it was, the Alliance would simply not be working as well as it is. Look at places like Wintergarde Keep, where you see night elves, gnomes, dwarves, and humans fighting side by side as if those racial bounderies never existed. This wouldn't work if the mantra of humans was "all non-humans are monsters".Keep in mind that the Forsaken are walking corpses, and that the only real experience or knowledge relating to things like them are the massive army of undead that was raised for no other reason than to destroy all living things on the planet. Can you really blame them for their initial reaction to be one of fear? And when these other undead proceed to, by all accounts, slaughter living residents of nearby towns with next to no provocation, is there really any reason for that perception to change for the better?I'd argue that the first positive experience any playable humans have with the Forsaken would be within the Argent Dawn. And by that time, quite a bit has happened, and those opinions (reached by completely legitimate reasons), may be too deeply set.In other words, no, there's not a lot of the Alliance that likes the Horde, and vice versa. To throw away all of the details and just cry racism is a fairly shallow reaction there, though, on either side.tl,dr : Racism is present on both sides, but arguably there is no "racist" race above any of the others.
4-11-2010 @ 9:29AM
Believe it of not, the horrible, "ideals," of the Scarlet Crusade are NOT held by a majority of the Alliance. They hate us Dwarves as much as anyone. They are my enemy - more so than Thralls people at this point.It's fine if your view of the Alliance is that they are xenophobic to the core but it's not supported by lore or the game. Whatever you need to do to justify your faction commitments is fine but don't put it on the rest of us. I do mean that in a nice way. Honest. I happily kill scarlet crusaders with a LOT less guilt than a taruen in similar circumstances. They have turned their back on the real teachings of the Light and twisted it into something very ugly. Most recognize this. Believe it or not the humans are not the default belief-set of the Alliance. Are they central to us all coming together - certainly.Blizzard did a good job covering the split between the Scarlet peeps and the rest of the Uther's people. - For the Silver Covanent!I'm not sure where you got the whole "Horde races = evil" thing from. You are arguing with your own perceptions, not with much that's been said in here that I can tell.
4-11-2010 @ 9:31AM
@ Tabasha - well said. I'm sorry I missed your post before I went off on my own. ;) You said much of the same. :)
4-11-2010 @ 12:27PM
People you are off again... 1: Varian wanted to reclaim Lordaeron for the HUMANS as Lordaeron was a HUMAN kingdom, and the major power of the Alliance of the Second war. 2: some people survived and stayed in Lordaeron, like the people of Southshore. That is still Lordaeron. Technically, the whole landmass is Lordaeron, until the Thandol Span. But as a "country", Lordaeron was the one in Tirisfal Glades. Because, as you may know, the old Alliance was made out of 7 human nations, including kingdoms like Gilneas, Alterac, etc. 3: the Scarlets have no role in the Alliance, not only because they are lead by a demon, but because they went mad long ago. They are so afraid of the Plague that they kill anyone on sight who isn't in the rank of the Scarlets. That includes human, dwarf, elf, etc.4: we do not know if the Forsaken tried to connect with the humans. What we know is that they totally embraced their state and decorate everything with skulls. I have read one good explanation about the Forsaken, about why they don't try to live a normal life, like, making a new gothic Lordaeron, the one which was destroyed. Because most of them are near-insane. Otherwise, they would be like the playable humans. But with rotten body. That's all. They could have been diplomatic and try to reconnect with the Alliance, or something like that. People stop dreaming/imagining and try to read some lore, will'ya? ;)
4-11-2010 @ 1:30PM
Great... yeah, I'm imagining/dreaming up all this stuff, I never read a single piece of lore in my life... sure... how about you stop insulting people with such a demeaning opinion?I am very interested the lore and read a lot of it, but I don't know everything (and I don't claim to, I try to base my writings on facts as much as possible, sometimes facts are open to interpretation though), neither do you probably you pompous ....@1: Yeah, he wants to reclaim Lordaeron because it was a human kingdom but does the simple fact that it WAS a human kingdom give him the 'right' to conquer it? No, it doesn't. He wants to, but he does not necessarily have the moral highground there. @2: yeah... what's your point?@3: that's a piece of lore I knew but forgot, stupid me, being human and not remembering every single piece of Warcraft lore perfectly... but I was wrong there, I won't deny that, that pretty much negates my whole post about the Scarlets@4: Yes, they embrace their new condition. 'They decorate everything with skulls'.. seriously? Does that alone make them evil? No.They are probably the closest thing to 'evil' we have in playable races, I don't deny that. But you don't know why things turned out this way. That was my entire point. That they did not necessarily start out 'evil' after regaining their free wil but hurt, wronged and only turned 'evil' after being mistreated by the very people they wanted to reconnect with.I am no longer sure that's the way things happened so I won't insist in this being true.I was wrong there and I'll write just that in my other post further down.I'm happy (well, happy is probably the wrong word...) to admit when I'm wrong but in a normal discussion talking down to other people has on place. Regarding Lore we're all more or less on the same level, passive users, we read about it, we experience it, we don't create it. The only one that has the right to act haughty is ie. Metzen. "You're wrong and here is why, the facts." No problem with that, that is ok. "Try to read some lore, will'ya? ;)" is not.And yes, I know this is the internet and trolling is commonplace and something you have to deal with, but stuff like this pisses me off.
4-11-2010 @ 3:38PM
@ nonentity - you're right, there's no reason to get insulting with each other. I disagreed with you but I hope I didn't sound cruel or condescending about it. :) I don't "get" the monstrous behavior of the Forsaken and cannot equate it with the Worgen but I see where you are coming from. I've heard the whole, "they were rejected by their living friends and family," thing but I've seen no real evidence of this. Still, to my mind nothing justifies Sylvanas' actions so that is my clear bias. Yeah, I love the heros who do the right thing, even after they've been treated badly. :) All good - we're all lore-nerds here. If I ever react in a way that is personal, please call me on it.
4-11-2010 @ 3:53PM
Nope Dreyja, no problem there.I based my Worgen - Forsaken comparision on the idea that the Forsaken were not inherently evil but changed because of the way they had been treated. Seeing as I was wrong there (forgot about the whole Sylvanas/Garithos business) and they started betraying humans (even if it was Garithos that racist prick) I can't explain their behavior that way anymore. I don't really get it now either.As someone in my other post/reply said, this is an imporant piece of information and should be in the article, it is a piece of the puzzle that is Forsaken behavior.
4-11-2010 @ 4:58PM
Ah well... I fail w/ this comment system all the time. I missed the other part of the conversation for a while. :) REALLY wtb EDITING in here! ;)
4-11-2010 @ 6:42PM
@1: Yeah, he wants to reclaim Lordaeron because it was a human kingdom but does the simple fact that it WAS a human kingdom give him the 'right' to conquer it? No, it doesn't. He wants to, but he does not necessarily have the moral highground there.O....K. Let's imagine that Scotland gets taken over by the Taliban. Or by a cult who worships the Flying Spaghetti Monster, whatever. The people in England organize a resistance to reclaim Scotland from those monsters who violently grasped it from them. They have the moral highground, because those who conquered it beforehand have no morality to speak of whatsoever.(I used Taliban because if I had used Nazis, I would've applied Godwin's Law, and that would've made me lsoe the argument automatically)
4-12-2010 @ 12:18AM
The Forsaken did not invade Lordaeron (I'm talking about the 'core kingdom' now, not as far spread as Hillsbrad for example), the Scourge did. The Forsaken were only unwilling participants at that point. In Lordaeron kingdom there is pretty much no living being left as far as we know. They then moved in/took over.You do have a point but it's not the same situation imo. To the people outside the.... 'invading organisation' it may not make any difference but there is one.... small as it is.Using your example - the Taliban killed everyone in... say... Edinburgh and the area around it with some sort of WMD. A somewhat big part of those Taliban then... had qualms... whatever.... and decided to move into the area and afterwards do the same thing as the guys before, just in a different... way.... fuck.... the Forsaken doing pretty much the same thing as the Scourge just on a smaller scale makes defending them really fucking hard.... damn... hate admitting it (also because if fucks with my image of this part of the Lore) but (said I would if I was wrong) but seems I was was wrong.I wish Blizzard had written the story the (wrong) way I remembered it, that they only turned bitter and hateful after being rejected by the living. Would have been more 'realistic' I think. Them just getting free of the grasp of the Lich King and immediately adopting his 'kill everything living' idea does not make a whole lot of sense imo. They have been driven insane? Easy way out. Probably a factor but can't be the sole reason for their decisions.FFS they want to 'cure' their undeath, which could mean a) return to living b) die for good. b) is easily achievable even now afaik, even in the lore, we did kill tons of 'undead' in WC3 and they didn't just come back. Same for a lot of Warcraft comics/books. The undead are not immortal. So we can only assume that if they wanted to die for good (a reasonable reaction in this situation imo) they could have done so already. So they want to go back to living. So why do they want to kill all the living before that? Yes, maybe not ALL Forsaken want to do that but by now we know (Royal Apothecracy Sociaty, their quests, Sylvanas supposedly supporting the idea (was brought up a lot in Wrathgate discussions) that a main part of them does.They always had two main goals, killing Arthas and finding a cure for their condition. Now that one has been achieved, what about the other? Or do we have to assume that the whole 'finding a cure' business was only a cover, that they're happy enough to 'live' on like this for... all eternity? Is a very, very big part of the official lore on the Forsaken just a lie? How does that make any damn sense?Same thing for the thing Thrall wanting peace yet revering 'war criminals' like Doomhammer, which makes his desired peace pretty much impossible.Blizzard does not always make the best choices it seems...
4-12-2010 @ 4:08PM
Well, I would say Blizzard makes everything complicated and convoluted on purpose, to force us (those who actually care, and not just play to hit things with swords) to wrack our brains over issues like this and question our moral positions. Part of it is making us question whether Thrall was right in elevating members of the Old Horde to the status of war heroes and whether the Forsaken actually want salvation (and thus should be helped) or only want destruction (and thus should not be trusted).Anyway, I like the direction this discussion went; I was actually expecting a more angry response, but you replied in an intelligent manner. I was pleasantly surprised by the way the discussion evolved, and I thank you for that. :)
4-12-2010 @ 5:27PM
Same here. I really like the Warcraft lore and enjoy discussions such as this. Even if doesn't always the way one might imagine as long as they as people 'talk' to each in other in a more or less polite way I don't mind it even if it turns out I was wrong starting out. Of course I'd rather be right, but still ;). I'd rather know the correct lore.That's also way I really enjoy these articles, even if I don't always agree completely with the author. They promote discussion.
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