Patch 5.3 interview with Ghostcrawler
Mystery of the Unborn Val'kyr
The latest patch 5.3 news
All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsMore Cataclysm change details for druids
by Allison Robert 
Apr 10th 2010 at 7:00PM
Druid HoTs and DoTsNo DoTs benefiting from haste and crit?
Most hots and dots, including druid ones, will benefit from haste and crit. The exceptions are things like Deep Wounds and Ignite, which are already tied to crit.
Most hots and dots, including druid ones, will benefit from haste and crit. The exceptions are things like Deep Wounds and Ignite, which are already tied to crit.
Ghostcrawler Q&A on the Tree of Life changeWe knew changing Tree of Life to a cooldown was going to be controversial. There was just no way a change this big would be unanimously accepted. My apologies if being a tree was what really drew you to the class.
We didn't add new rotational spells to Restoration or Feral cat because, good lord, you have enough buttons already. We tried hard with Cataclysm to not add new spells just because. The specs that got new spells were ones we think had big holes in their rotation. You'll still get new talents and mechanics so I expect there will be a lot to learn when the big game-changing patch rolls around.
In short, are we trading the current Tree bonuses for a throughput cooldown, or are we gaining a throughput cooldown? Gaining one is fine--for all that the preview listed "no new spells," you guys are clearly on top of that (regrowth crit to an AoE heal and a throughput cooldown, at least). Trading bonuses for a throughput cooldown, however, is simply at odds with HoT healing, which is all about consistency.
This is what we're trying to do. On live today, druids are balanced around healing in tree form, meaning they give up a lot of utility just to be as good as other healers. When Tree of Life is a cooldown, then you'll be balanced healing in night elf, troll, worgen or tauren form, and then you'll be more powerful when in tree form. The nice thing about cooldowns is the difference can be pretty significant while active.
(Concerning popularity of the change to Tree of Life) There is a large difference between "controversial" and being close to unanimously hated.
You don't have any evidence of that though. Even within this thread, there are plenty of players who like the change. It's not like we design around public vote anyway, but if you look at the old "Is Tree form fun?" thread, there were a lot of players on both sides of the argument. It was a change we wanted to do anyway, but we tested the water to see if the change would be unanimously hated. We concluded there were plenty of players in favor of it. I don't know if the split was 50 / 50 or what, but it doesn't really matter because it wasn't a poll. It was just to take the community's temperature.
I'm not saying you don't have a right to feel passionately about any of this. It's fine, understandable even, if you do. I'm just asking you not to assume that everyone must naturally feel the same way you do.
We might (*might*) consider a minor glyph that kept the visual of the old tree form in some fashion even when not using the Tree of Life cooldown.
GC, please just shoot us straight here. Many of us are adults, and we can accept it if the change is PVP-related as is being speculated on the boards... but your stated rationale in making this change currently counters everything you've previously posted about making gameplay about more interesting choices.
It's not for PvP reasons. We just don't think healing forms are a good idea.
Now if you want to talk about PvP, I'd agree that going tree was an interesting decision back when it came with huge penalties (like movement). That wasn't very fun to actually play in though so we kept chipping away at the differences between being in tree form and not being in tree form until we were left to wonder what the point was. We asked players on these boards and elsewhere how attached they were to the form, and found some loved it, some hated it, and some were indifferent.
I don't fault you at all if you loved the form though and I'm sorry if this makes playing a druid less fun for you.
In response to a repost of Ghostcrawler's class Q & A on the druid:
I'm not sure why this keeps getting brought up as some kind of logical inconsistency that is supposed to mean we aren't allowed to change our minds.
Plus, if you really read the quote, I'm talking about two things:
1) Hey, maybe staying in a single form all the time isn't really that good for the class.
2) Druids use three different resources: mana, energy and rage depending on what form they're in.
Part of our logic here is that tree form doesn't actually do enough. It doesn't change your resource system. It doesn't give you new tree-only abilities. It can't let you be a better healer than the priests, paladins or shaman, and we keep adding things to the list of what druids can do as a tree because it's not fun to be so limited. We started asking ourselves what we were really gaining.
The same can be said about moonkins, yet this isn't happening, why? it appears a double standard.
I've said this before, but we don't think giving up everything (hyperbole, but you get the idea) to go into a dps form is that big a sacrifice, because you're being compared to and presumably want to fill the role of classes and specs that do nothing but dps. It's not a big deal for a druid to give up healing to dps like a mage, because the mage can't heal.
But giving up abilities to heal is tough when priests, paladins and shaman don't have to. If this was a single player game, we'd probably do something like say druids have to fully commit themselves to healing, but if they do, they'll be 10% better at healing than any other class. In an MMO, it doesn't feel fair to do that. So instead you make sacrifices just so you can heal as well as everyone else. But that ends up feeling unfair, so we give you most of the abilities you'd typically ever want to cast, and pretty soon the Tree of Life talent is just changing your visual. If it was super compelling gameplay, we'd probably be talking instead about ways to keep it.
So you're making ToL a CD but what are you going to do about the fact that ToL gives us buffs and gives us a SP bonus that brings our SP equal to other healing classes. Without that buff our spell power is below all other casters are you planning on either raising the amount of sp granted by gear or giving us a talent that gives us that buff
We can put those buffs anywhere in the tree or remove them and just balance around it. Virtually every number in Cataclysm has to change anyway to support new character levels, health pools, combat ratings, going to a single spell rank, etc. There's no reason to worry about how this would affect your relative power in today's live build. At this stage I would focus on mechanics or design intent, not actual numbers. The numbers will start to be more important as we get closer to ship.
As I've said not ten minutes ago, constant polymorph immunity, 200% armor bonus, 15% bonus SP from spirit and 10% extra healing is kind of a big deal. Putting that on a CD is going to make an impact on Druid healing.
None of those things need to be tied to the Tree of Life form though, and in fact they are all examples of the kind of passive bonuses we're trying to winnow out from talent trees.
Are the Tree (on CD) and Moonkin forms being updated? I don't need details, I just would like to know if I can expect to see the same Owl form I have now in the next expac or if we finally will get more polygons at least.
We would like to. Those are on the list, but they're expensive tasks because they require so much art time. You might be willing to have one fewer new boss models in order to get the forms updated, but if we did that and we added a new demon for warlocks and a couple of new models for other class needs here and there and pretty soon all of those bosses are going to end up looking pretty recycled. :(
It will stay on the list though. If we don't get to it for 4.0, there's always 4.1.
My post also addresses your counterpoint. Remove the poly immunity, shift the these-effects-are-only-to-bring-you-up-to-par-with-other-healers off the talent, and reduce the offensive restriction (to, for example, no offensive arcane spells). All of the mechanics reasons are thus addressed. A healing aura (which wouldn't stack, and therefore isn't 100% required) and additional armor (not always useful in PvE, and a tradeoff in PvP) remain, as well as the flavor of each druid role having its own form. The only remaining reason to remove it? Showing off gear.
But under your argument, the only reason to keep it is flavor. You have a talent that essentially says "gives the druid flavor" because all of the actual bonuses are baked in elsewhere. That's our actual concern about the talent: increasingly it doesn't do anything except change your art.
Well, the bartender's saying something about last call, so I'm going to have to duck out. My intent was not to ignore the Ferals or Balance druids out there, or all the other classes with previews who probably resent my spending so much time on the Tree of Life issue, but we knew it would be controversial and I wanted players to know we were listening to them. Perhaps we should have announced it earlier like we did with the DK tanking post, though to be fair, we've hinted at this change coming since Blizzcon.
We didn't add new rotational spells to Restoration or Feral cat because, good lord, you have enough buttons already. We tried hard with Cataclysm to not add new spells just because. The specs that got new spells were ones we think had big holes in their rotation. You'll still get new talents and mechanics so I expect there will be a lot to learn when the big game-changing patch rolls around.
In short, are we trading the current Tree bonuses for a throughput cooldown, or are we gaining a throughput cooldown? Gaining one is fine--for all that the preview listed "no new spells," you guys are clearly on top of that (regrowth crit to an AoE heal and a throughput cooldown, at least). Trading bonuses for a throughput cooldown, however, is simply at odds with HoT healing, which is all about consistency.
This is what we're trying to do. On live today, druids are balanced around healing in tree form, meaning they give up a lot of utility just to be as good as other healers. When Tree of Life is a cooldown, then you'll be balanced healing in night elf, troll, worgen or tauren form, and then you'll be more powerful when in tree form. The nice thing about cooldowns is the difference can be pretty significant while active.
(Concerning popularity of the change to Tree of Life) There is a large difference between "controversial" and being close to unanimously hated.
You don't have any evidence of that though. Even within this thread, there are plenty of players who like the change. It's not like we design around public vote anyway, but if you look at the old "Is Tree form fun?" thread, there were a lot of players on both sides of the argument. It was a change we wanted to do anyway, but we tested the water to see if the change would be unanimously hated. We concluded there were plenty of players in favor of it. I don't know if the split was 50 / 50 or what, but it doesn't really matter because it wasn't a poll. It was just to take the community's temperature.
I'm not saying you don't have a right to feel passionately about any of this. It's fine, understandable even, if you do. I'm just asking you not to assume that everyone must naturally feel the same way you do.
We might (*might*) consider a minor glyph that kept the visual of the old tree form in some fashion even when not using the Tree of Life cooldown.
GC, please just shoot us straight here. Many of us are adults, and we can accept it if the change is PVP-related as is being speculated on the boards... but your stated rationale in making this change currently counters everything you've previously posted about making gameplay about more interesting choices.
It's not for PvP reasons. We just don't think healing forms are a good idea.
Now if you want to talk about PvP, I'd agree that going tree was an interesting decision back when it came with huge penalties (like movement). That wasn't very fun to actually play in though so we kept chipping away at the differences between being in tree form and not being in tree form until we were left to wonder what the point was. We asked players on these boards and elsewhere how attached they were to the form, and found some loved it, some hated it, and some were indifferent.
I don't fault you at all if you loved the form though and I'm sorry if this makes playing a druid less fun for you.
In response to a repost of Ghostcrawler's class Q & A on the druid:
I'm not sure why this keeps getting brought up as some kind of logical inconsistency that is supposed to mean we aren't allowed to change our minds.
Plus, if you really read the quote, I'm talking about two things:
1) Hey, maybe staying in a single form all the time isn't really that good for the class.
2) Druids use three different resources: mana, energy and rage depending on what form they're in.
Part of our logic here is that tree form doesn't actually do enough. It doesn't change your resource system. It doesn't give you new tree-only abilities. It can't let you be a better healer than the priests, paladins or shaman, and we keep adding things to the list of what druids can do as a tree because it's not fun to be so limited. We started asking ourselves what we were really gaining.
The same can be said about moonkins, yet this isn't happening, why? it appears a double standard.
I've said this before, but we don't think giving up everything (hyperbole, but you get the idea) to go into a dps form is that big a sacrifice, because you're being compared to and presumably want to fill the role of classes and specs that do nothing but dps. It's not a big deal for a druid to give up healing to dps like a mage, because the mage can't heal.
But giving up abilities to heal is tough when priests, paladins and shaman don't have to. If this was a single player game, we'd probably do something like say druids have to fully commit themselves to healing, but if they do, they'll be 10% better at healing than any other class. In an MMO, it doesn't feel fair to do that. So instead you make sacrifices just so you can heal as well as everyone else. But that ends up feeling unfair, so we give you most of the abilities you'd typically ever want to cast, and pretty soon the Tree of Life talent is just changing your visual. If it was super compelling gameplay, we'd probably be talking instead about ways to keep it.
So you're making ToL a CD but what are you going to do about the fact that ToL gives us buffs and gives us a SP bonus that brings our SP equal to other healing classes. Without that buff our spell power is below all other casters are you planning on either raising the amount of sp granted by gear or giving us a talent that gives us that buff
We can put those buffs anywhere in the tree or remove them and just balance around it. Virtually every number in Cataclysm has to change anyway to support new character levels, health pools, combat ratings, going to a single spell rank, etc. There's no reason to worry about how this would affect your relative power in today's live build. At this stage I would focus on mechanics or design intent, not actual numbers. The numbers will start to be more important as we get closer to ship.
As I've said not ten minutes ago, constant polymorph immunity, 200% armor bonus, 15% bonus SP from spirit and 10% extra healing is kind of a big deal. Putting that on a CD is going to make an impact on Druid healing.
None of those things need to be tied to the Tree of Life form though, and in fact they are all examples of the kind of passive bonuses we're trying to winnow out from talent trees.
Are the Tree (on CD) and Moonkin forms being updated? I don't need details, I just would like to know if I can expect to see the same Owl form I have now in the next expac or if we finally will get more polygons at least.
We would like to. Those are on the list, but they're expensive tasks because they require so much art time. You might be willing to have one fewer new boss models in order to get the forms updated, but if we did that and we added a new demon for warlocks and a couple of new models for other class needs here and there and pretty soon all of those bosses are going to end up looking pretty recycled. :(
It will stay on the list though. If we don't get to it for 4.0, there's always 4.1.
My post also addresses your counterpoint. Remove the poly immunity, shift the these-effects-are-only-to-bring-you-up-to-par-with-other-healers off the talent, and reduce the offensive restriction (to, for example, no offensive arcane spells). All of the mechanics reasons are thus addressed. A healing aura (which wouldn't stack, and therefore isn't 100% required) and additional armor (not always useful in PvE, and a tradeoff in PvP) remain, as well as the flavor of each druid role having its own form. The only remaining reason to remove it? Showing off gear.
But under your argument, the only reason to keep it is flavor. You have a talent that essentially says "gives the druid flavor" because all of the actual bonuses are baked in elsewhere. That's our actual concern about the talent: increasingly it doesn't do anything except change your art.
Well, the bartender's saying something about last call, so I'm going to have to duck out. My intent was not to ignore the Ferals or Balance druids out there, or all the other classes with previews who probably resent my spending so much time on the Tree of Life issue, but we knew it would be controversial and I wanted players to know we were listening to them. Perhaps we should have announced it earlier like we did with the DK tanking post, though to be fair, we've hinted at this change coming since Blizzcon.
Rogue/cat UI additionsAre cats receiving a similar change for Savage Roar and their UI, or is this going to be completely rogue specific?
It will most likely apply to cats as well.
It will most likely apply to cats as well.
Improving early druid gameplayHas there been any consideration on giving druids cat form at an earlier level? Similar to how hunters will start with a pet at level 1, and shamans getting a melee attack at 3. Also hoping paladins get an extra button to push at earlier levels, as well.
It won't be super low level, but we might switch the levels at which you get cat and bear.
It won't be super low level, but we might switch the levels at which you get cat and bear.
Feral mastery bonusesDoes this mean that druids can no longer have a hybrid Cat / Bear spec and would need to spec specifically? Or would said bonuses only apply depending on what form your in at the time?
It applies to the form you are in at the time.
so when a warrior puts 40 points in arms he gets 40 points worth of melee damage and armor pen and since its the most points in the three trees he gets the mastery. the remaining points in fury gets him 31 points worth of melee damage and melee haste but he doesnt get the mastery. even if its 51 and 20 you still get something. looks like you dont have to put all points in one tree b/c the other trees give you bonus's right?
so when a cat druid puts 52 points in feral tree he gets 52 points of melee damage and melee critical strike damage and since its the most he gets the mastery. The other in resto tree, b/c currently there is 19 points worth of useful feral stuff in the resto tree, he gets 19 points worth of improved healing and mana regen. Is that right? sounds good for pvp but crapy for pve.
Hibernicus, in your warrior example, he only gets the three bonuses for the points spent in Arms. The only thing he gets from Fury are those, presumably juicy or he wouldn't have gone there, talents.
In your druid example, that's a Feral druid (because he spent the most points in Feral) and he doesn't get any Resto bonuses. He may get OOC though, which aint bad.
It applies to the form you are in at the time.
so when a warrior puts 40 points in arms he gets 40 points worth of melee damage and armor pen and since its the most points in the three trees he gets the mastery. the remaining points in fury gets him 31 points worth of melee damage and melee haste but he doesnt get the mastery. even if its 51 and 20 you still get something. looks like you dont have to put all points in one tree b/c the other trees give you bonus's right?
so when a cat druid puts 52 points in feral tree he gets 52 points of melee damage and melee critical strike damage and since its the most he gets the mastery. The other in resto tree, b/c currently there is 19 points worth of useful feral stuff in the resto tree, he gets 19 points worth of improved healing and mana regen. Is that right? sounds good for pvp but crapy for pve.
Hibernicus, in your warrior example, he only gets the three bonuses for the points spent in Arms. The only thing he gets from Fury are those, presumably juicy or he wouldn't have gone there, talents.
In your druid example, that's a Feral druid (because he spent the most points in Feral) and he doesn't get any Resto bonuses. He may get OOC though, which aint bad.
Diversifying restoration spell useWe think there will be more reason to cast Healing Touch (perhaps with some number tweaks) for when you need to heal someone who has a real health deficit.
Druids don't have perfect analogs to the priest heals, but you can imagine Regrowth as the Flash Heal, Nourish as the heal, and Healing Touch as the greater heal. Lifebloom is something you'd put on a tank before healing with Nourish or Healing Touch (which might even refresh the stack). Rejuv will still be good for the reason hots are good. Wild Growth is still a group heal. Tranquility is an emergency heal, and we'll change it to act more like Divine Hymn.
Druids don't have perfect analogs to the priest heals, but you can imagine Regrowth as the Flash Heal, Nourish as the heal, and Healing Touch as the greater heal. Lifebloom is something you'd put on a tank before healing with Nourish or Healing Touch (which might even refresh the stack). Rejuv will still be good for the reason hots are good. Wild Growth is still a group heal. Tranquility is an emergency heal, and we'll change it to act more like Divine Hymn.
Eclipse UI additionHow will the Eclipse Bar factor in how much it shifts?
Damage Done?
Cast Times?
Cast Completions?
Mana Costs?
We're going to try a few different things and see what feels the best. Spells cast is the simplest system, but we also get a little more dynamic system if it was damage done or even if just crits moved the meter more. We still don't want a rotation that is just 1111222211112222.
Damage Done?
Cast Times?
Cast Completions?
Mana Costs?
We're going to try a few different things and see what feels the best. Spells cast is the simplest system, but we also get a little more dynamic system if it was damage done or even if just crits moved the meter more. We still don't want a rotation that is just 1111222211112222.
Simplifying cat DPSHey GC can you expand on what Bashiok mentioned about changing the feral cat damage rotation to be slightly more forgiving? He gave a few examples but I am still curious about it.
The recent Mangle change is a good example. Other candidates include letting Rake last longer, changing Mangle's damage such that it's not such a gigantic dps loss not to Shred, and / or changing the bonus of Savage Roar so that it's not such a crippling dps loss if it falls off. Using Savage Roar after a target with cps on it has died will help too.
We still want the John Madden crowd to be able to try and maximize their dps. We just want players not playing at that level to not be so far behind (though behind is fine).
The recent Mangle change is a good example. Other candidates include letting Rake last longer, changing Mangle's damage such that it's not such a gigantic dps loss not to Shred, and / or changing the bonus of Savage Roar so that it's not such a crippling dps loss if it falls off. Using Savage Roar after a target with cps on it has died will help too.
We still want the John Madden crowd to be able to try and maximize their dps. We just want players not playing at that level to not be so far behind (though behind is fine).
Restoration getting "no significant changes"Other from the universal healing changes Resto Druids have absolutely NOTHING to relearn or spend time to master unlike the other healing class notes released.
Let me know how that Rejuv spamming with WG on cooldown works out for you at 85.
You really want us to be excited that we get to cast something we already have? While we watch everyone else get new and shiny toys? Really? Do you just rewrap your children's xmas presents year after year and expect them to be excited they go the same thing as last year?
You'd just be here in a few months posting "What's the point of Mega Moss? It's too similar to Regrowth and doesn't heal as much as Nourish." By which I mean there's not point giving a new heal to Resto just so your bar looks a little different if you're not going to actually use the spell. Seeing as how many druids don't use much beyond Rejuv and WG today, I'd say we have plenty of heals to find homes for before we worry about adding new ones.
There will be several new talents to consider. The Resto tree still has a lot of passive bonuses in it to be replaced.
If Mega Moss wasn't a watered down version of a current spell - we wouldn't complain about it. The reason we didn't like Nourish is because we already had 2 direct healing spells. Why is it hard to do away with something we don't use that much and give us something new to look forward to?
My fear is the universal answer to a new druid healing spell will be "the reason we didn't like X is because we already had Y."
I'm sorry but have you ever healed as a druid in high-end raids? I regularly use 6 spells: Regrowth, Rejuv, Nourish, Wild Growth, Lifebloom, and Swiftmend; very few fights go by where I don't use all 6. People who do what you described are pretty universally considered bad druids who just try and pad the meters. Changing the way druids and healers in general play based around bad healers is bad design; those bad players will always attempt to do exactly that.
That's not to mention Nature's Swiftness, Nature's Grasp, Barkskin, War Stomp (if adds are out of control), and Faerie Fire if no other druids are available.
I just pulled a couple of heroic Icecrown parses at random from among the best guilds out there. Their druids had like 60% Rejuv and 25% Wildgrowth. I'm sure some of that remainder was LB or Swiftmend or something (like a certain hammer or mace), and maybe they even saved someone's life with one of those spells. But you're going to have a hard time convincing me that druids aren't too effective with just those two spells. That will change in Cataclysm.
Let me know how that Rejuv spamming with WG on cooldown works out for you at 85.
You really want us to be excited that we get to cast something we already have? While we watch everyone else get new and shiny toys? Really? Do you just rewrap your children's xmas presents year after year and expect them to be excited they go the same thing as last year?
You'd just be here in a few months posting "What's the point of Mega Moss? It's too similar to Regrowth and doesn't heal as much as Nourish." By which I mean there's not point giving a new heal to Resto just so your bar looks a little different if you're not going to actually use the spell. Seeing as how many druids don't use much beyond Rejuv and WG today, I'd say we have plenty of heals to find homes for before we worry about adding new ones.
There will be several new talents to consider. The Resto tree still has a lot of passive bonuses in it to be replaced.
If Mega Moss wasn't a watered down version of a current spell - we wouldn't complain about it. The reason we didn't like Nourish is because we already had 2 direct healing spells. Why is it hard to do away with something we don't use that much and give us something new to look forward to?
My fear is the universal answer to a new druid healing spell will be "the reason we didn't like X is because we already had Y."
I'm sorry but have you ever healed as a druid in high-end raids? I regularly use 6 spells: Regrowth, Rejuv, Nourish, Wild Growth, Lifebloom, and Swiftmend; very few fights go by where I don't use all 6. People who do what you described are pretty universally considered bad druids who just try and pad the meters. Changing the way druids and healers in general play based around bad healers is bad design; those bad players will always attempt to do exactly that.
That's not to mention Nature's Swiftness, Nature's Grasp, Barkskin, War Stomp (if adds are out of control), and Faerie Fire if no other druids are available.
I just pulled a couple of heroic Icecrown parses at random from among the best guilds out there. Their druids had like 60% Rejuv and 25% Wildgrowth. I'm sure some of that remainder was LB or Swiftmend or something (like a certain hammer or mace), and maybe they even saved someone's life with one of those spells. But you're going to have a hard time convincing me that druids aren't too effective with just those two spells. That will change in Cataclysm.
Eclipse masteryOur deep Mastery bonus for Balance is Eclipse. What exactly will the bonus be? What if we shape-shift or stop casting for awhile- does the Eclipse bonus decay or disappear?
The bonus will be increased damage to Nature spells or to Arcane spells. We're not sure of the magnitude yet, but it will need to be hefty enough for you to actually want to switch.
It will need some kind of decay -- we don't want you farming naga or whatever before you step into the raid with a full meter -- but it shouldn't decay fast enough that you find normal encounter movement very troubling (for that reason anyway).
The bonus will be increased damage to Nature spells or to Arcane spells. We're not sure of the magnitude yet, but it will need to be hefty enough for you to actually want to switch.
It will need some kind of decay -- we don't want you farming naga or whatever before you step into the raid with a full meter -- but it shouldn't decay fast enough that you find normal encounter movement very troubling (for that reason anyway).
World of Warcraft: Cataclysm will destroy Azeroth as we know it. Nothing will be the same. In WoW.com's Guide to Cataclysm you can find out everything you need to know about WoW's third expansion. From Goblins and Worgens to Mastery and Guild changes, it's all there for your cataclysmic enjoyment.
Reader Comments (Page 4 of 7)
perderedeus Apr 10th 2010 9:10PM
I can understand their reasoning behind it... they want druids to see their armor more often, and the only two forms they can do that in would be Boomkin or Tree. I'm not sure what makes Boomkin more 'iconic' than Tree of Life, though... really, they could make both into a Metamorphosis-esque cooldown ability...
Lakiri Apr 10th 2010 9:40PM
Don't give them any ideas. Removing ToL form is bad enough, if they removed Moonykin and made it a.. "cooldown"..that would be the last straw for this Druid. ;(
Lissanna Apr 10th 2010 11:32PM
Moonkin form was somewhat modeled after the shadow form for priests. Since there is a precedence for DPS hybrid specs giving up healing to do more damage, it's a model that they don't mind keeping in the game.
Jay Apr 11th 2010 4:07AM
I honestly don't get this eppen-ish "We want you to admire you armour" argument.
It seems to be something the DPS/Recount mob would want more than healers?
Maybe ythey should turn th espacechicken intoa cooldown, that group would probably be happy looking at their armour, I just want to waggle my roots and dance up a storm.
nutzj98 Apr 10th 2010 9:10PM
No, I'm not. I feel as though the class was finally complete when ToL was introduced. The exact "nature" of the talent ToL isn't even important. They could have made it straight haste as long as it is the core ability continuing the talent tree.
Your comment about exaggerating what ToL is, well it's redundant. It's what the "class" is. It's how Druids in WoW work. It's how we've grown with our class since the beginning and adding ToL fixed the awkward moments when Druids weren't good enough for tanking, dps, or heals. The addition of ToL made the class whole and was the start of our viability in all our roles.
As I said yesterday, if I want CD's then I'll re-roll. But I'm a Druid and as such I should be in form.
nutzj98 Apr 10th 2010 9:13PM
LOL and I'm sorry if ToL hinders "your" ability to perform. Maybe it's not the classes fault.
nutzj98 Apr 10th 2010 9:20PM
@Miatela
So then why aren't you crusading for the other forms to be CD's if you're so against the concept? If it bothers you and your miserable logic that much then don't play Druid because unless you plan on staying resto. Because according to your logic, they're fixing resto and the rest will still act like a broken Druid...
nekorion Apr 10th 2010 9:25PM
no offense here, but learn to hit reply bro.
sherekhan88 Apr 11th 2010 6:24AM
Because by his logic, ToL has always been a situational form that was NOT part of the core druid forms (of which it was only Cat and Bear, which only had uses for levelling in Vanilla, and saw much more play in TBC). It is a form similar to Shadow Form for a Priest - You sacrifice a part of your spellbook in order to focus on doing something better. This was what its purpose was in TBC. In TBC, you never saw a Resto druid ALWAYS in his ToL form BECAUSE it had distinct disadvantages. Not even in PvE do you always see a Resto Druid in ToL form, because mobility was important as was the form of CC that a Cyclone might provide. And in arenas, no self-respecting resto druid would use it for PvP for the same reasons
In WOTLK, we're so used to Resto druids being in ToL form that we think of it like how Feral Druids use THEIR forms.
Case in point, the Feral tree consists of talents COMPLETELY DEVOTED TO IMPROVING THE FERAL FORMS OF BEAR AND CAT. They provide NO benefit to a Druid's ability in caster form. For a Feral Druid to BE a Feral Druid, he MUST be in a Feral form or else the entirety of his Feral Talent Tree AND the Feral portion of his Spellbook are completely useless.
Resto Druids' talent trees affect his healing capabilities in the same way as other healing classes. They affect spells and effects that he can take advantage of in his CASTER form just as well. As GC stated, ToL was added in TBC, it was NOT a defining point of the Resto talent tree at all. ToL was a way for a resto druid to buff himself but at a disadvantage. A disadvantage which has more than been removed in WOTLK, making Resto druids think their default form SHOULD be the ToL form.
Yes, there are resto druids that enjoy it, I don't think anyone is saying the decision is fair to those people. But a lot of people are over-exaggerating the actual importance of the ToL form.
murphy Apr 10th 2010 9:25PM
Hey druids who are freeking out super bad about tree TOL.
1. You will find that you're healing stats and survivability will not have been compromised but rather added into your normal stats so it will be as if you never lost TOL.
2. TOL will become something INTERESTING and EXCITING as it will cause something COOL to happen when you use it. This is most commonly referred to as a COOLDOWN.
3. TOL will probably get an updated visual making it that much more awesome when you press that new shiny COOLDOWN button.
4. If you care that bad about always being a tree they will most likely add a minor glyph allowing you too appear as a tree.
5. All your healing abilities are going to be adjusted so that you will have more reason to use them.
Lakiri Apr 10th 2010 9:31PM
No. 1 Reason why I'm freaking out? I LOSE MY FAVORITE DANCE IN THE WHOLE GAME. D:
GrumblyStuff Apr 11th 2010 1:02AM
@Lakiri
Well... maybe they'll have the dance studios this time around....
murphy Apr 11th 2010 3:46AM
Lakiri,
It seems you forgot to read number 4 in your desperate attempt to freak out over TOL.
It's ok druids usually freak out over changes anyways, like when arena opponents change targets unexpectedly. It's in your nature.
Lakiri Apr 11th 2010 3:51AM
L2itwasaj-- OMFG THE WARRIOR CHANGED TARGETS WAT DO WAT DO OMG.
Clockw0rk Apr 10th 2010 9:59PM
I feel a little betrayed about this. I mean, look at -ALL- of the Lich King weapon drops. They all have epic names and flavor text. Flaaaaavor.
If I have a choice between the neat looking ice blade with a black glow or a slightly less neat looking silver blade with no glow but flavor text which says "The might of the stars will crush thine enemies asunder"; if the stat difference is negligible, I'm going for flavor text.
Flavor is what makes WoW, WoW. Rampant holiday events, silly loot drops, a hat that shoots lightening, bosses that reference pop culture, over a hundred mounts and vanity pets...
People who will never raid, people who will never see 80, let alone 85, play the game because it's fun and neat and cool because of FLAVOR.
GC, the token WoW community rep, coming out and saying "You don't need this, it's just flavor" is -exactly- what all the MMOs that don't do -nearly- as well as WoW have done when it comes to their extra content. No inscriptions on weapons, no non-major holidays, no 'just for looks' equipment, no style; just soulless calculator function beneath an aging coat of paint.
It kind of stings that we've essentially been told 'This isn't a democracy, so your voice really doesn't matter'.
I'm so disappointed. Bitterly disappointed.
I can have a balanced casting form, a tanking form, a dps form, a travel form for land, air and sea, and a heal... oh wait. No. You're taking away my healing form.
So Druids have a form for every utility they bring to the table, EXCEPT healing.
It makes zero sense. Why should druids have any forms if they don't have every form? Why does only one form become a warlock-esq cool down? There isn't a single reason I've seen so far that doesn't scream 'oh, it kinda sucks in pvp and we can't seem to get any artists to update it'.
And what the hell about the lore? "You've been able to be a tree indefinitely for five years buuuut.. now you can only do it for 1 minute at a time with a 5 minute cool down."
Seriously. What the hell.
seanthehorde Apr 10th 2010 10:26PM
Resto druids will have a form. It's called........ your guy! And hey guess what, at one point way back in Pre-BC there was no tree of life at all. How ever did those poor old druids ever heal without being a shimmying twig? Oh yeah they used their normal caster forms.....
I like this new idea for resto druids. Think of Tree of Life now as a Spirit of Redemption that you don't have to die to activate.
People need to stop flippin QQing about every little change. Get over yourselves people
Sarah Apr 10th 2010 10:26PM
Agreed on the outrage of it all BUT unfortunately our opinion is not in common with the entire resto druid population.
You say our voices are being ignored which is certainly untrue. As mentioned in the article our opinion is far from unanimous, and there are plenty of players who are okay with these changes.
The double standard on moonkins vs. trees also bothers me. A Moonkin dropping form to emergency heal is MUCH more common - and possibly a lifesaver on an encounter! However, rarely have I ever NEEDED to help with DPS to complete an encounter. In fact, the only reason caster form would be needed is if we're coming close to an enrage timer.
murphy Apr 11th 2010 8:26AM
Based on your argument, TOL currently has NO flavor.
Wouldn't making an effect become something more exciting that just shouts out "OH SHIT!" be more flavorful? Y'know like how when you don't always get to do something it becomes that much more cool when you DO get to do it?
Not to mention you've obviously COMPLETELY ignored the statement about adding a glyph so that you CAN be shown as a tree the whole time if that's what your little heart desires.
Flavor..Gimme a break man, you just want to complain.
TonyMcS Apr 10th 2010 10:58PM
Tunnel vision is always a problem for players. The inability to see outside their chosen character or even a stable of alts is coupled with a fear of any change,
Face it, most of you are not developers, you don't have an overall view of the game and you don't have access to the terabytes of data from millions of people playing the game, You also don't have any experience with any of the projected changes or understand the complex reasons behind them or the practical restrictions to implementation. Complex theorycrafting will return data on isolated performance, but it's a little like the physicists helping the farmer improve his chicken production by saying "First let's imagine a spherical chicken".
None of us like change. We get used to our rotations or priorities and the effect of our most used spells and attacks. We understand them, we become skilled and none of us wants to start as a noob again.
But Blizzard is not Cryptic where every change is an attempt to shore up badly designed cookie cutter MMOs. WoW works and provides a complex environment with lots of different internal game goals and mechanics. I think we have to assume that Blizzard is trying to improve the game and I'm happy to let them try.
I've played WoW for over 4 years and all I've seen is improvement. Sure some things may have been less than sucessful than others, but at no time did I think the developer's job was to personally annoy me. I'm delighted Blizzard keeps wanting to try new things and I have faith if the change doesn't work out, they'll fix it.
While gamers should try and see the big picture and restrain their nerd rage, game developers need to avoid thinking of all users as whiny little brats, based on the rantings of the voluble few.
The only constant is change ;-)
seanthehorde Apr 10th 2010 11:09PM
Very well written and I agree on every point in here 150%