Officers' Quarters: Tax time

Every Monday, Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership. He is the author of The Guild Leader's Handbook, available this spring from No Starch Press.
In the United States, federal and state taxes are due in just a few days -- April 15 is the deadline. If you haven't figured out your taxes by now, you're probably in a bit of a panic. Though we often resent paying, taxes are the price of living in an organized society. They pay for defense, schools, roads, social programs and a host of other benefits. Some we can all agree on; some are a matter of fierce debate. In a guild, taxes are often a controversial issue. Some guilds who use point-based systems like DKP will tax members' point totals to prevent point hoarding. This week, one reader is wondering about a different kind of tax.
Hi Scott,
I am a member of a casual raiding guild. Recently some of the officers have been kicking around the idea of a "raid tax" -- a set value of mats used in a week's worth of 25-man raiding that can be paid by members either in gold or through supplying the mats themselves. It's funny because the "tax" for a given week sounds exorbitant to me (close to 1,000 gold when they figure in the price of enchanting mats and gems for loot).
My question is, how do other guilds handle the weekly expense of raiding? Is it every man for himself to supply flasks, food, gems, and enchants. Is it a shared expense? And, maybe more importantly, is there any way to know how possible changes with Cataclysm will affect these dynamics?
I would love some insight.
Thanks,
--The Price is Wrong
You are right to wonder about this policy, TPIW. I haven't heard of many guilds who use a tax system to provide all the material goods needed for raiding.
Most guilds, in my experience, use a sort of communal "every player for him/herself" policy. Each guild member is responsible for making sure he or she has everything needed for every night of raids and for equipping gear with the gems and enchants required to get the job done. However, many guilds practice informal sharing of goods to accomplish this, either using the guild bank as an item dump or trading among themselves -- a few flasks in exchange for an enchant, for example.
In fact, I find it useful to let members bring their own consumables and be responsible for their own gear. This sort of policy can show you who really cares about preparation and progression and who is phoning it in.
Some guilds use a hybrid system. They might ask members to bring their own consumables and provide their own enchants/gems, but they will ask members to donate funds to the bank in return for feasts and the option to pay repair bills using those guild bank funds.
Your officers seem to be taking the system completely into the realm of taxation, where everything needed to raid is provided for every player, but every player pays enormously for those benefits. I'm wondering why they feel it's advantageous to enact this policy.
Perhaps they've had issues with people showing up unprepared, and they assume it will be easier to give everything out rather than asking players to be responsible for their own raid prep. There's some comfort in knowing that everyone will always be 100% ready with all the best available item modifications.
However, this system will require an enormous amount of work on the part of the officers. They'll have to make sure everyone is paying those taxes in the first place. Then they'll have to purchase all the necessary items week in and week out and distribute them accordingly. Since there's no such thing as a "Flask Feast," an "Enchant Table" or a "Gemwell," there's going to be a lot of player-to-player trading before and during raids.
According to the changes announced at Blizzcon 2009, Cataclysm will help officers tremendously with these issues. Setting a tax will be part of the guild UI. A portion of what each player earns will go to the guild bank. Also, it will be possible to use guild currency, which doesn't cost any gold, to purchase materials for items like flasks. So a fully tax-funded system for raid prep and item enhancement may become more feasible and more common with the next expansion. For now, it remains rather difficult.
The other issue at stake is whether the price is, in fact, wrong. One thousand gold per week, at first glance, seems to be quite a sum. However, it really depends on how much your guild raids and how successful you are at it. Let's assume a best-case scenario, which is a full weekly clear of ICC-25 in eight to 12 hours. Let's also assume worst-case scenarios for costs.
You're starting with 25,000 gold.
Assuming the worst case, no one in your guild is an alchemist, so you need 300 flasks for 25 people for 12 hours of raiding. The price of flasks is way down these days, so let's say they cost 20 gold per flask. That's 6,000 gold per week. We're down to 19,000 total.
Feasts have only gotten more expensive as people grow more and more bored with fishing up all those sculpins, salmon and nettlefish. Let's assume they cost 20 gold each and you need on average three per boss, assuming some bosses require zero feasts and some require six or more. That's 720 gold, leaving us with 18,280.
Now, since we're clearing the zone, we're getting three items per boss. In a best-case scenario, nothing is sharded. That's 36 items, most of which have at least one gem slot and require some other enchant. This is difficult to cost out, since the prices of different gems and enchants vary widely. But we're assuming the worst here, which means each item has three gem slots that need expensive gems (200 gold) and it also requires a pricey (200 gold) enchant. The total cost would be 28,800.
Overall, our costs are now 35,520, putting this theoretical guild "in the red" for the week at negative 10,520 gold.
We haven't even factored repair bills into it, assuming the pooled money is also used for such expenses. You can see how quickly the costs pile up when you're planning for a worst-case scenario. Fortunately, costs tend to decrease over time, since the runs become faster with practice and more items are sharded as players gear up. Also, not everything needs to be purchased from the auction house. Basic enchanting mats, for example, are acquired during the runs whenever a green item drops. Raw gems can be purchased and cut by a guild member to save cash.
If your officers are seriously planning this, I'm sure they're doing these types of calculations, and they know much better than I what the actual costs would be for your guild on average. I went through the numbers merely to make a point that it could actually cost much more than 1,000 guild per person in a given week for everything required. It's a number that's easily adjusted, however, as your officers get a better sense of the actual costs.
I can't say I recommend this system, based on the extra burden of effort it puts on the officers and the onerous financial burden it puts on each member, particularly since TPIW describes his guild as "casual." Until Cataclysm's new UI elements and guild overhaul make a tax system easier to implement, a better solution is emphasizing preparation and commitment to raiding well. Casual raiding does not mean lazy raiding. Lazy raiding doesn't work.
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 5)
Clydtsdk-Rivendare Apr 12th 2010 3:55PM
Also note that "poor" in the US equals "amazing" in many other parts of the world.
@Draniest: Thanks, I was gonna say something along those lines but now I don't have to :D
Grovinofdarkhour Apr 12th 2010 3:57PM
Great, another person who for some reason believes we all want to talk about the US tax system on a Warcraft forum.
Draniest, please get Scard and you guys go find a tax discussion forum that makes you really happy. What you guys want to discuss, if you can't tell by the umpteen other posts in the thread, is totally and completely not welcomed by anyone else on this forum.
Draniest Apr 12th 2010 4:22PM
Just for the record, guys, I don't think any of us meant to inject politics into this. In the opening paragraph Scott Andrews says, "Though we often resent paying, taxes are the price of living in an organized society. They pay for defense, schools, roads, social programs and a host of other benefits. Some we can all agree on; some are a matter of fierce debate." Now, if I would have just posted that and not anything else, many of you would have flamed me for talking politics before someone pointed out that it was a direct quote from the above article. The politics in these comments comes from the passage I quoted, not from our comments. Granted, the comments furthered it, but my initial reaction to the article was, "Wait, what?" followed about 5 minutes later by, "Why in hell would a guild try to impose taxes?"
Just saying, don't act like the tax discussion came out of left field.
icepyro Apr 12th 2010 7:08PM
What others have failed to point out is that aside from it being inappropriate, the facts concerning taxation in the US are wrong. The quotes are good, just that whole bit on history and statistics, although Wilson was president, but he had nothing to do with it so...
Just sayin.
Succulent Apr 12th 2010 9:11AM
I don't think members will be pleased about a "tax" like this. I know I wouldn't be if it was me.
I like to supply myself and I don't mind helping others but I don't enjoy paying gold for others short comings on something simple as gaining flasks.
Our system is that everyone should be prepared, but the guild bank is willing to help with expenses. For example, for current raid content gear, it can help out with enchant mats and gems.
Being an officer, I also come "prepared" with extra flasks for those that forget, usually from the guild bank supply. I'm almost always walking around with 20 spell power flasks on my DK. The only problem here is when you use the wrong one (I know, they're different colours but it happens!). DK using spell power at 80, oh dear.
We generally have a good collection of players that know to enchant, gem and bring raid resources themselves. Usually we have a number of people that bring fish feasts, which is nice. All from their own grinding/pocket/so on.
Anyway, tax isn't an enjoyable part of real life, don't think it'll be enjoyable in WoW either.
PsychoChris Apr 12th 2010 9:21AM
*cough* Maybe your guild should provide health care too! *cough* J/K
But seriously, this system should only be necessary if your raiders are only logging in to raid.
As an officer in a ranked progression guild, we are able to pay for Repairs/Fish/Enchants/Gems by simply selling off ICC BoE's. If BoE's aren't a main spec upgrade, they go to the guild bank to AH for offsetting costs. That combined with guildies with professions maxed, nets upward of +5k gold each week after costs (on average).
Hiwa Apr 12th 2010 11:07AM
The guild does provide health care. It's called 'the healing team'.
Roy Apr 12th 2010 11:34AM
HEH Healthcare... Healing team... HEH.
Yeah, that's some funny stuff. Imagine if we had to pay for attendance in doing our job... Like the guild is a corporation, and we all get an hourly rate of gold for coming and doing our job... lol. Noone would want to DPS anymore since they'd be the lowest paid.
Seaborn Apr 13th 2010 1:58PM
Sadly, most raiding guilds don't pay repairs, feasts, gems, and enchants. Yea the boEs that dont go to a players main spec go in the bank but that's the last most guildies see of it. Even officers.
I'm speaking for ranked per server mind you, but never the less. Its hard to answer questions from guildies as an officer when they want to know why theres 60k in the gbank and they see the boe's in the AH but never get repairs paid for.
joshbuddha Apr 12th 2010 9:21AM
My guild gives raiders a 75G per day repair bill paid for by when we sell a BoE no one in the guild needs, and since we drop fish feasts before every boss pull we just expect people to throw a few in the bank every week.
Other than that raiders are on their own to provide for the costs of raiding, and that is the way it should be. Frankly get your own flasks, enchants, and gems. If you cannot do this you shouldn't be raiding. Shoulder your raiding costs and don't cry about it or don't raid.
Darkissac Apr 12th 2010 9:22AM
The guild I'm in currently is set up where we put in stuff and take stuff out when we need it for our main+raid spec, when we get something that could benefit another player we throw it in the bank, we throw some gold in when we get some surplus, all our frozen orbs go in the bank, all for the benefit of gearing up our guildies, flasks chants and epic gems are provided for raiders from the bank....
lemur Apr 12th 2010 9:24AM
I love to raid. But I am absolutely terrible at making gold in WoW. Period. I am also a student, who has an active life IRL. And if I were in a guild considering a guild tax of 1000g a week I'd /gquit. Especially if it is a casual guild. The very nature of imposing a tax that steep is antithetical to what a casual guild is, and is more suited for a "hard core" guild than anything else.
jrizutko Apr 12th 2010 2:00PM
In my experience, guild policies always reflect past guild behavior. I don't think a tax is really the best way to handle it, but sometimes a guild needs to remember that when they take cut gems, enchants, flasks etc without paying anything in return its costing someone else a great deal of time and effort. In my guild we just implemented a fixed flask price and required all requests 12 hours in advance of the raid. That was enough after a couple weeks of enforcement to totally change the culture of our raiders for the better and its been smooth for years ever since.
Redielin Apr 12th 2010 9:27AM
I think the tax system is bad for several reasons mentioned in this blog:
1 - It puts extra strain on your officers. You don't want to put too much strain on them if you don't have to, otherwise, you're going to end up not having any officers.
2 - It puts the responsibility in the wrong place. Namely, the responsibility for augmenting/flasking the raid should be on the raid, just like researching talents and playstyles. Personal responsibility enhances identification and investment in the joint venture. When one person takes up the slack, everyone else becomes disinterested and the 'one person' gets burnt out.
3 - We're Americans (well, most of us on US servers, anyway) and, while the (mostly sane) majority of our country recognizes the need for at least some government spending and the accompanying fees, the legacy of the Revolution on our culture is a strong distaste for taxes. They feel like punishment. If you want someone to stop doing something, tax them for doing it. Do you want your raiders to stop raiding?
This is the kind of stuff you need to cover in a guild application. You want to make sure they know before they sign on the dotted /ginvite that they will be expected to come prepared for raids, and what that means, and what the consequences for repeated infractions will be.
If there's a problem with raiders not showing up with flasks or augments/gems, it may be time for a heart to heart with the guild. This stuff is there and expensive for a reason: it makes a big difference. Start positive, offering to help or even providing a few free enchants (we're still trying to convince half of our raid that tuskarr's vitality beats any other boot enchant BY FAR, especially on fights like Sindragosa). Provide help, but always with the eye on getting them to do it on their own, not allowing them to become dependent on your guild bank or whatever.
Finally, if there are holdouts, then there's one language every raider understands: the waitlist. No preparation? *Especially enchants/glyphs/gems*? Sorry, we're bringing the other guy tonight.
Its not fair to hold your guild back because people can't be bothered to prepare.
Crowqueen Apr 12th 2010 9:49AM
Of course we Europeans recognise that in order for society to function as a communal unit, sharing the wealth is inevitable and sometimes necessary.
I think that raiding would function reasonably with a tax, since everyone depends on everyone else. You can't just go out and solo a current content raid. So you need everyone to be equally prepared and it's in your interest, in a guild at least, to make sure everyone can pull their weight.
That said, I think there are better systems, but I wouldn't mind being part of something like this in order to be able to see the higher content with a progression guild. Will probably not be raiding until Cataclysm now, personally, but I intend to at least try.
Carson Apr 12th 2010 6:36PM
Is now a good time to ask whether that cultural difference between Americans and Europeans might be connected to the fact that every raiding world first in living memory has been achieved by a European guild? Ohohoho!
Melayna Apr 12th 2010 9:29AM
Most guilds I know have most of there raid needs funded from selling the BOE items that come from runs and also donations from the guild. If your guild runs enough raids and has enough BOE's most are fully able to supply guild repairs and fund most guild mats easily.
My guild actually runs with the Guild tax system which is like the GST (Goods and services tax). This is where a set amount determined by the Guild leader is tallied to your name from certain things you do (also determined by guild leader). For us it's 10% of items vended, money received in guild raids and i think quests. In return we have access to the guild bank that has all the raiding items/ crafting items we may need. You may also donate to the guild bank as you see fit. The tallied amount is taken out of your bags when you access the guild tab. That isn't too much for free enchants, raid items, crafting items etc. On average i think i put in about 100g a week, but donate flasks, gems, pots and other sundries.
For us it was implemented because our donation only system wasn't really working and a few people where putting more effort in than others and it was no longer fair. It gets frustrating to people who come 100% prepped and donate excess gems, flasks etc only to have some people just take them out of the guild bank and not contribute anything to the guild in return. (Especially when these people have the necessary professions and use there items for just pure profit).
Only raiders pay this tax, alts and non-raiders are exempt. So far for us it's proven to be quite beneficial. At first there was a few grumbles but the system is much fairer.
This all said, I don't think we have had to donate nearly as much gold as the OP has had to. 1000g is more than I earn a week in game and penalizes casual players or people with tight play times. The donation system+guild tax for us works.
Taka Apr 12th 2010 9:30AM
I find that most top guilds (top 50) will provide flasks, speed pots and fish feasts to all members. This money comes from BoEs and other services the guild sells.
For example, we recently sold a Mimiron's Head for 150,000g and have another one lined up. The guild bank has been sitting over 300,000g for a long while now.
Mau Apr 12th 2010 9:30AM
TPIW, quit the guild man.
My guild uses a "every man for himself" system, but on guild chat you can announce your wares/needs at a price a bit lower than the AH.
As for feasts, we use a calendar assigning them to specific players who must bring them prepared beforehand.
Redrider Apr 12th 2010 9:38AM
As a guildleader you have to keep your members happy amd when you want some one to feel happy in the guild reward them, for example ny guild uses Ep/Gp system and by showing up with all your flasks and enchants etc. you get ten points (it may vary on guilds). This system has kept my guild working since Bc.