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4-12-2010 @ 9:10AM
KISS: Keep It Simple, Stupid.That system sounds like it would be a huge distraction and additional workload on the guild. It's probably not a good idea.I've always been a fan of the simple systems in guilds. Things that anybody can understand with only a brief explanation:"Show up to the raid, with food and flask buffs, and your equipment gemmed and enchanted. Or you are sitting on the bench today, and we'll bring someone else who is prepared."I don't think it's unreasonable to expect people to be prepared, without having to be babysit with heavy taxation and the guild providing everything for them. If you aren't prepared, then there are plenty of other prepared raiders who weren't able to fit in the group who are more than willing to take your place.*shrug*
4-12-2010 @ 9:19AM
I suppose it might not work for every guild.But if your guild is like mine, and you have 5-6 people PMing you at the start of every raid asking to be invited, and you have to tell them the raid is already full...It seems like the simplest solution.
4-12-2010 @ 9:38AM
Let's imagine for a minute that this system does go in place, but instead of charging every guild member 1,000g each week, the guild leadership does an audit of every guild members' personal stash of gold and charges accordingly. The richest guild members pay 4-5,000g each week and the poorest guild members pay 0-10g each week. 25,000g is collected every week, but in different amounts from different members. Everyone still has full access to all the gems, enchants, flasks, food, etc. for the raid. How would you all like this idea?Welcome to the world of taxes in the United States. Those who have worked and earned lots of gold will pay a heavy pentalty to access the same services as the person who lazily slobs along and contributes very little gold. A rough analogy, but everyone in the US reading this, live this every day and every year come tax season. Sadly, as we currently sit, more than a third of Americans pay NO taxes. Using the WoW example above, this would mean 8 or 9 of your weekly 25 raiders show up every week to raid, expecting to get gems, enchants, flasks and food, yet contributing NOTHING for their collection. How many of you would put up with this?
4-12-2010 @ 9:54AM
@Scard: No federal income taxes. There's still sales tax, payroll tax, social security, and the like.
4-12-2010 @ 9:57AM
Actually every single person that draws a paycheck pays taxes. If you are below the federal minimum, you still pay social security tax and welfare tax (i'm not sure what the later is actually called). When I was 14 I was paying social security tax, when I was making a rich $1000 a year. Also, our tax base is much less progressive than it used to be, and far better than socialist countries like France. Taxes have come down, alot, while our deficit has grown.If you feel like complaining because you are rich, go ahead. I'm rich too, but I pay my taxes because I wasn't always rich, and I know what it's like to be poor.I'm also rich in game, and instead of throwing money away on mounts I fund the guild's raid repairs. I work for that dough, but I don't mind giving it up to help the guild progress. Its just pixels anyway.
4-12-2010 @ 10:01AM
That's an interesting analogy there.See, because imagine you ran a system like that in WoW. And suddenly decided you weren't going to put up with it anymore. You tell those slackers "pay up or don't raid". They reply "we don't have the time/skill/opportunity to farm that money, so we'll have to not raid then" which could be true. Or they could be slackers. What happens? No-one raids. You have 17 people, which isn't enough for ICC 25. So everyone loses out. If you don't look after the less fortunate, the results are felt across the guild.So in real life, what do we do? Tell the unemployed and low earners and lazy "tough luck" and let them die of starvation? That's basically what you're suggesting. But then, who's going to clean your offices? Who's going to collect the trash? Who's going to do all those shitty low-paid jobs you're utterly reliant on for your own comfort?
4-12-2010 @ 10:04AM
@Scard. You cannot draw a parallel like that between real life and a video game.I've lived on both sides of the line. At one point, I was so far below the poverty line, that I had to supplement my diet with stuff I pulled out of trash cans at local fast food joints, so that I could stave my hunger.You have no comprehension of what it is like to be poor (or what it truly means to be rich) until you've been homeless.I have clawed my way out; through my own hard work and determination, to a place where I do in fact now pay taxes. In fact, I dare say a ridiculously large portion of my current income goes to taxes; it's hard to call it anything other than what it is.But I am under NO delusion that the people who currently are in the situation that I used to be, deserve to be burdened by the same tax load that I am now.Whether or not YOU want to acknowledge it; there is a baseline amount of money needed to feed, clothe, and shelter yourself and your family. That amount of money, in my humble opinion, should never be counted as part of your taxable income; no matter how much (or how little) money you make.FAIR TAX 2012
4-12-2010 @ 10:09AM
@ Scared:Were you seriously comparing the US tax system (a vast, complex, and generally incomprehensible system to the common layman) with the in-game economy of WoW (a tiny, zero-sum, easily understood and manipulated system).I personally don't agree with this guild's idea of taxing its members 1000g/week to raid, but why turn the topic into a rant against the US tax system? The two topics are TOTALLY unrelated and one has no bearing or commonality with the other. Just my opinion.
4-12-2010 @ 10:17AM
Aaargh please people. I moderate an internet forum with several thousand regular posters retreading the ever-fertile ground of US foreign and domestic policy over and over and over again. I don't need to see it in the WoW.com comments too.And if that heartfelt plea doesn't stir you, consider the fact that it is completely and utterly irrelevant and distracting from the actual subject of the thread, which is guild financing.Now go, and sin no more.
4-12-2010 @ 10:28AM
@ScardThen there are the gold farmers and the Haris Piltons of the world, who haven't worked a day in their life, yet somehow they "earned" their money right? Sorry but poor does not equal lazy, and until you figure that out, you'll never understand what this country really stands for.Please...I've seen enough "born again" liberals that all of a sudden convert when they find themselves in a difficult situation, losing their jobs, losing their health insurance, yet they would deny the same leniency to others having a difficult time.
4-12-2010 @ 11:31AM
Protip for people on all ends of the political spectrum:Delivering a rant about your views on a forum such as this is the online equivilent of standing up on the subway and screaming "WAKE UP, PEOPLE!" In the end, it doesn't matter if you were right, wrong, or personally delivering the word of God himself. You'd be incredibly naive to not realize that the end result will just be a lot of people thinking you and whatever you just said are crazy. This tactic does not "open the eyes of the masses" no matter how convinced you are it will...it just does your views a disservice (whatever they may be) by associating them with insane behavior.
4-12-2010 @ 11:55AM
@ all the hatersI did not call all the poor people in the US lazy. I implied that those who show up to a raid with no gems, no enchants, no flasks, no food and with nothing to contribute material-wise are lazy. Most WoW players would agree that this person does not deserve to raid and should not be given all these things week after week. There are millions of poor people in the US who are not lazy. I consider myself to be one of them. My income for 2009 was $0.00. But I have worked my tail off for 10 years so that for 2010, my income should be well over $200,000. I know what it means to be poor. I also know what it means to work hard. Soon I will know what it means to be rich and pay ridiculous amounts of taxes./end drama
4-12-2010 @ 12:06PM
PS - Before someone accuses me of it, no, I have not been living with my parents (or anyone else for that matter) for the past 10 years. I've lived on my own and paid for everything on my own.
4-12-2010 @ 12:56PM
God damnit, Scard! Why can't we find any refuge from people like you?Keep your @#$%^&@ politics out of my WoW!!
4-12-2010 @ 1:01PM
There are lots of places to talk about tax policies. Here is probably not the best place. Try somewhere else.It's just polite.
4-12-2010 @ 1:03PM
"PS - Before someone accuses me of it, no, I have not been living with my parents (or anyone else for that matter) for the past 10 years. I've lived on my own and paid for everything on my own. "Then how come you don't understand that's there's a big difference between a video game and real life.
4-12-2010 @ 1:06PM
I hereby begin my plea for the addition of an Ignore button during the next retooling of these forums.I would really like to be able to make sure that any time I see someone deciding to impose their thoughts about the US tax system, health care, or any other topic I specifically come to these pages to NOT hear about, I can then decide that I never want to hear one goddamn word out of them ever again.Is that too much to ask?
4-12-2010 @ 1:09PM
Scard, you're missing the point. I don't think people were necessarily hating on your political beliefs. Some may have been; others might agree with you. But I think people were hating on the fact that you hijacked a VIDEO GAME discussion to deliver a political diatribe.
4-12-2010 @ 3:06PM
@ ScardLet me give this a shot, as I'm totally on your side. First of all, it's call the 16th amendment, folks. That's the income tax. Prior to that, Congress couldn't tax income. So the US has not always had an income tax. This amendment was in fact passed by Woodrow Wilson, one of our worst presidents if you actually know history, and a super hardcore progressive (not a good word in politics). This is the same president that stomped all over freedom of speech with the Espionage Act and Sedition Act, which literally could imprison people during WWI for saying, "Hey, maybe we shouldn't be in this war." Taxation origins aside, the income tax as it sits today is nothing more than redistribuition of wealth, that's WHY so many people don't pay anything, because their refund comes from other people. The United States does in fact penalize success in this fashion. I personally like the idea of a fair tax, which is this: Income Tax system disappears. No more, gone, finished. The taxes you pay on goods and services, however, would be increased. The net result of this is that you get taxed FOR WHAT YOU SPEND, NOT WHAT YOU MAKE. If you made a billion dollars a year and were frugal, only spending say, $400,000 that year, you only get taxed for the $400,000. This doesn't penalize success, and in fact rewards frugality (something most of us here in the US could stand to learn).There's a difference between this and unemployment, to be clear. There is a large portion of the US, though, that many of us are paying for so that they can remain in poverty, just enough to get by. That's the status quo for them, and it's been warned against in the past.In case any of you disagree with me, the founding father's intent backs me up.I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. In my youth I traveled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer. - Benjamin FranklinThe democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. - Thomas JeffersonHistory affords us many instances of the ruin of states, by the prosecution of measures ill suited to the temper and genius of their people. The ordaining of laws in favor of one part of the nation, to the prejudice and oppression of another, is certainly the most erroneous and mistaken policy. An equal dispensation of protection, rights, privileges, and advantages, is what every part is entitled to, and ought to enjoy... These measures never fail to create great and violent jealousies and animosities between the people favored and the people oppressed; whence a total separation of affections, interests, political obligations, and all manner of connections, by which the whole state is weakened. - Benjamin FranklinCongress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare but only those specifically enumerated. - Thomas Jefferson
4-12-2010 @ 3:14PM
Also, within the context of the game, any taxation system is sure to be a bad idea, especially the one the article is about.
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