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The latest patch 5.4 newsDrama Mamas: Invasion of privacy
by Robin Torres 
Apr 16th 2010 at 4:00PM
Captain Obvious says that communication within guilds is a very good thing. But as we've seen before, sometimes too much communication can cause more drama than keeping quiet. It is smart to anticipate problems and make preparations in case they occur. But is thinking the worst of people the same as proactive problem-solving? When thinking ahead to avoid trouble, it is usually a good idea to examine your own motives and see if any prejudices are lurking that color your viewpoint. If it's possible that envy or disapproval are clouding your judgment, it is usually best to keep your mouth closed and your eyes open. I assume the best about this week's letter writer's motives for wanting to prevent drama in his guild. But in this case, motives are irrelevant to the possible drama bomb that would explode from an invasion of privacy.
Dear Drama Mamas: There are two members of my guild, both male, who are in a romantic relationship with each other. Most members of my guild don't know this, and the two men prefer to keep it that way. The problem is, one of them was recently promoted, and on some nights will be distributing loot among a group that includes his boyfriend. I don't think it's appropriate for an officer to be dating a lower-ranking member, and ordinarily I would raise that issue to argue against the promotion. However, I don't want to out the couple -- that would be a serious invasion of privacy. What should I do? -- Morton's Diner
Drama Mama Robin: Morton, I have a few questions which need answers for me to answer your question fully:
- What is your guild's current couple policy? If an officer gets his girlfriend/wife into the guild and she raids, is he not allowed to distribute loot for that raid? Or is there no clearly stated couple policy? If there is no couple policy or if other couples have different guild ranks and are able to play and loot together, there is no reason to make a fuss about this particular couple.
- What is your rank in the guild? Are you an officer whose business it is to set up and enforce policies, or are you just a concerned citizen? If you are an officer, you have more power in this situation than if you are of lesser rank than the officer-boyfriend. Warning: If you are not an officer, any noise you make about this promotion may seem like sour grapes.
- Has the officer behaved inappropriately loot-wise yet? You may be convicting this couple of inappropriate behavior before any takes place. And they may behave completely professionally forever, or just as likely, the non-officer may get less loot in this scenario in order to throw off any suspicion.
Actually, no -- I don't need any of the above questions answered. Of course you shouldn't out these two players. And I must admit that I disagree completely that it is inappropriate for people to date within guilds, no matter what their ranks. Let's talk about the nature of guilds:- A guild is a group of people in a game. It is not a company or the military or a government agency. Though a professionally run guild is most certainly more successful than one that is not, physical world rules established to avoid lawsuits and the like just don't apply.
- A guild is a social club. Guilds are formed by people with common interests and goals. Of course romance will happen, no matter the gender.
- Most guilds have couples in them, even progression guilds. Despite the popular conception that gamers are all lonely basement-dwellers, we know that guilds have been functioning with couples in them for years.
- Friends who aren't dating conspire for loot nastiness all the time. Just because two people aren't romantically involved doesn't mean they will automatically behave better than those who are. The fact is that most loot conspiracies and raid invitation bias occur between people who are just friends.
- Raiding guilds raid. So whatever loot drops that you don't get will drop again in the near future. If your guild isn't raiding regularly or you're not getting the loot you think is appropriate, these are issues that have nothing to do with this couple.
- Loot distributors are under a magnifying glass. If there is unfairness going on, you won't be the only one who notices. Complaining will happen and adjustments will be made, regardless of romantic connections.
Drama Mama Lisa: The nature of the relationship between these two players has nothing to do with loot. A couple in a romantic relationship is no more likely to cheat on loot rules than friends in a platonic relationship. Cheaters cheat -- it has nothing to do with their sexual orientation.
So here we have it: The nature of their relationship is irrelevant. No cheating on loot has occurred. What should you do? Nothing, my friend. Nothing at all.
Drama Buster of the Week: Raid leaders, when you assign a non-traditional role to a specific player as part of your strategy, it is not enough to just tell the player. Announce this assignment before each raid to avoid drama. If your best DPS is assigned to only hit the boss and not touch the adds, for example, make sure everyone knows this. Otherwise your star damage-artist will most likely receive "advice" in whispers. [Thanks, Jagoex, for this tip!]
Remember, your mama wouldn't want to see your name on any drama. Play nice ... and when in doubt, ask the Drama Mamas at DramaMamas (at) WoW (dot) com.Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Drama Mamas
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 4)
Imagene Apr 16th 2010 4:54PM
Being in the same guild (well, faction....we started out in MxO before coming to WoW) is what brought me and my fiance together. We're male and female, but if we hadn't been smushed together in the first place, he never would've made a move and vice versa.
Gotta remember that this is still a game. We're dealing with real people, but real people that hold loot so dear to their hearts that they think two people cannot be romantically involved need to think of how important a game really is. ^.^
statter Apr 16th 2010 5:08PM
Robin wrote:
"Friends who aren't dating conspire for loot nastiness all the time. Just because two people aren't romantically involved doesn't mean they will automatically behave better than those who are. The fact is that most loot conspiracies and raid invitation bias occur between people who are just friends."
The fact that loot conspiracies happen mostly between friends has more to do with the fact that there are more "friend" pairs than "couple" pairs, and doesn't really inform this situation since we KNOW they're a couple. For example, suppose there are more Jewish people in US than in Israel. But if I'm curious if somebody is Jewish and I know their from Israel, that's still important knowledge. [Caveat for those who fail at logic: this is not to equate Judaism with loot conspiracy.]
Lisa says it correctly:
"A couple in a romantic relationship is no more likely to cheat on loot rules than friends in a platonic relationship. Cheaters cheat -- it has nothing to do with their sexual orientation"
But who knows where she gets the data for that conclusion! :) On another note, Lisa, your reply indicates a misinterpretation of the letter. Morton makes no conclusions about cheating based on sexual orientation. He is not concerned that they'll cheat because they are homosexual. He's concerned because they are a couple and nobody knows it. The issue of orientation only arises in the increased sensitivity of the situation, since Morton cannot reveal the relationship. Unless of course you were referring to their sexual orientation vis-a-vis each other :p
This is not to say that I disagree with your conclusions. :) While there's no guarantee that a particular piece of loot will drop again, Robin makes good points about the social nature of guilds and I think that the non-officer boyfriend is more likely than not going to get less loot because the officer will be concentrating on not favoring him. (Then again, this is a general observation and it's hard to say without knowing the guild/people!)
duskhawk Apr 16th 2010 5:14PM
We actually prefer that both members of a couple aren't officers at this point; five of our officers' S.O.'s are in the guild, as well. It actually seems to be less dramatastic (and less conspiratorial to non-officers), I think. Yeah, we raid, and no, we haven't had problems with loot distribution and couples in at least my 4 years of memory with the guild.
Dating lower ranking members? It's a guild, not the Army. o.O
Tyu Apr 16th 2010 5:14PM
Dear Drama Mamas,
I'm a Homophobe and a Drama queen. Is it okay to use some confidential information about my guildmates to hurt some feelings and put a rift in my guild?
Thanks!
Concerto Apr 16th 2010 5:38PM
I have to say I agree that the line "I don't think it's appropriate for an officer to be dating a lower-ranking member, and ordinarily I would raise that issue to argue against the promotion." kind of threw me for a loop.
My guild leader and I have been dating for the last 10 months or so, 5 of which I spent raiding, the rest not. My guild uses a Loot Council system and he was perhaps (okay he definitely -was-) stricter about giving me any loot, or voting for me to get said piece of loot.
Granted, our relationship has been a secret to the majority of the guild save for some very close friends, but he didn't want in any way there to be a hint of favoritism towards me. I can completely understand that, the raiding wasn't about the loot to me anyway.
I suppose my whole point to this little rant is, who's to say that the individual in the relationship who got the promotion, won't take the same stance as my boyfriend did, and be a little harder on his SO in terms of loot distribution? Or take a fair stance?
I don't really think it's this person's business really to out the couple, or make a complaint without any prior behaviour that may warrant it.
Donna Apr 16th 2010 5:46PM
Huh. Odd, the concern *I* would have about different-ranked couples is if one of them has access to the others account. (Which, actually, is the situation with me & my significant other -- I'm an officer, he's not, but if he betrayed my trust enough to take advantage of that, then we'd have bigger problems than warcraft.)
But loot distribution? That's a pretty transparent process, and is nicely self correcting when the receivers of said loot start complaining. :)
Ludo Apr 16th 2010 10:19PM
The most interesting part of this to me was the comment about Officers not being in a relationship with lower ranked members. In the past we have found it more drama busting to have no couples as officers! All three of the Co-GM's in our guild have wives or boyfriends in the guild and they are all member rank. We prescribe to officer positions being a job and it is much easier to work with those that you don't have to tip toe around as officers worrying about how it will alter your personal relationship. Also it helps drama-bust any idea that the officers are a special clique.
Daniel Apr 16th 2010 6:46PM
I think homosexuality is a red herring and irrelevant to the resolution of this issue.
Let me ask a simple question. What if we replaced the term "guild" and inserted the words "your work place" at every location in the text. Would you still feel the same way reading the text?
Have any of your heard about EEO. Do you understand that if you date someone you are supervising it is by definition sexual harassment, regardless of the how "fair" the two parties are to each other? There is an inherent inequality of power that is easily subject to abuse.
***I recognize that a WoW guild is not always identical to a work place situation.*** But for some people it is and for some guilds it is. All I can say is that if I didn't feel comfortable revealing the nature of the relationship I'd leave the guild. I think the letter writer has every right to be concerned. This is the type of thing that has the power to be corrosive to guild cohesion.
Hasha Apr 16th 2010 6:54PM
I'm just imagining:
"Jim, I love you!"
"Mary, I love you too, but we can't meet again, we have different ranks in our World of Warcraft guild."
Randolyn Apr 16th 2010 7:03PM
Our guild's GM is married to another member who is a non-officer.
If anything, the GM is MORE harsh to his spouse than anyone else in the guild, especially during raids.
They also talk to each other using their in-game names, which strikes as, I don't know, slightly odd.
uncaringbear Apr 16th 2010 7:11PM
1. The writer makes no mention at all if any inappropriate or unfair loot distribution took place.
2. The orientation of the couple's relationship is irrelevant. Any two people who are in a relationship deserves privacy.
I laud the advice from Robin and Lisa, but it could've been summed up as as this:
If you think the guild requires a non-relationship rule for officers or loot council, then make a case to the guild leadership. You can do this WITHOUT revealing any relationships.
If the loot distribution has been fair thus far, then STFU. I'm guessing the writer lost out on a piece of loot that he REALLY felt he was entitled to.
Peebers Apr 16th 2010 7:55PM
Man!!! I couldn't even finish reading after "loot conspiracy". Holy crap! Conspiring was so damn fun. There were 5-6 raiding rogues in my guild back in mc/bwl. We had a rogue channel and would discuss all kinds of ways to screw warriors and hunters out of OUR loot( dkp system )We were damn good! There was also another channel me and the other rogues would use to discuss how we were gonna screw the rogue class leader. Also damn good. We just hated him and his wife( hunter class leader ) cuz we'd hear their kids crying in vent.(also she stole my vis'kag once). crowning moments were 1) when I outbid by 1dkp for guild first Perditions blade, and 2) when I got the next CTS for 100dkp after he dropped 1k+ the week before. What? We were rogues. I got screwed out of BF boots and maladath couple times.
Maybe OT a little. At least you're less likely to hear babies in vent from this power couple. =P
Tickle Apr 16th 2010 9:00PM
Geez what a fuss. Drama mamas gave good advice, the couples relationship has absolutely nothing to do with it, loot favouritism happens more between friends than couples.
To some of the freedom fighters in this thread, your rant is completely irrelevant, and to Kylenne, you smell of biggotry yourself.
Tim Apr 16th 2010 9:12PM
@ Al
Amen Al. If hetero's didn't have sex homosexuals wouldn't be here! Anyway, Lisa. Robin, ya'll knew this would be a can of worms didn't you?
My 2 Cents: I don't agree with homosexuality and never will. It's unnatural. That being said, outing the couple is dumb. They still deserve privacy regardless of who they choose to love or hunker down with or w/e.
My GM is bi and he asked me if it changes my view of him and I said, heck no. He's still the same guy. I don't agree with the gay/bi lifestyle as I stated above but it doesn't change the fact that my GM knows what he's doing as a GM and as a hellofa tank.
Zahira Apr 16th 2010 9:55PM
I feel very fortunate to be in a guild made up of mostly RL friends and several couples who are all good honest people. Loot disputes are few and momentary and surprisingly friendly, ie... two people roll on something and one person realizes it's a bigger upgrade for the other person so tells them to take it, then there is the "no you take it, you won the roll" argument that ends quickly with someone who needs it getting it with no harsh feelings or bitterness from anyone. We all want what's best for the guild and each other which keeps peoples greed and ego's in check. It's too bad more guilds aren't that way.
We don't have a strict loot rules, it's more or less a common courtesy that any polite caring people give each other.
I think most loot disputes could be settled if more guilds and their members cared about something other then themselves, every time I see these loot disputes brought to light here or in other forums it amazes me how many greedy and mean people are in our society and that if more people would just treat each other the way they wish to be treated it would make our world (both Earth and Azeroth) a better place.
Gelflings Apr 16th 2010 10:27PM
"Dear Drama Mamas: There are two members of my guild, both male, who are in a romantic relationship with each other."
In my opinion, this is where the Drama Mamas should have stopped reading.
The couples sexual orientation, as pointed out by others in this thread, has absolutely no bearing on this question.
So why was it even mentioned? I would say because the person asking this question of the Drama Mamas has more of an issue with the romantic relationship itself, and is trying to justify it to themselves by making the issue about loot.
Borrowing the workplace analogy someone used earlier:
If i went to my boss and started a discussion with "There are two members of my development team, both male, who are in a romantic relationship with each other and...."
I would be stopped there and be quite firmly asked to think very carefully about the next words that came out of my mouth.
Because no matter what legitimate issue i believe I have, by starting with the above sentence, i have plainly revelaed to my manager that the real issue I have is with the people themselves.
Just some food for thought.
Heather Apr 17th 2010 5:54AM
I disagree that the guy is a homophobe simply for mentioning that the couple is a gay couple.
Outing a hetero couple in a guild is not the same thing. There are ramifications for a gay couple in a mostly hetero guild that simply don't exist for a hetero couple. That is not to say that the guild is full of homophobes. But I guess...the best way to put it is, Morton wanted it to be clear as to WHY outing them as a couple could be so detrimental. If he hadn't mentioned their gender, it wouldn't have been nearly as clear.
Naomi Apr 17th 2010 2:28AM
If he'd started the thread with "There's a guy and a girl in my guild who are together" would you have all reacted like, "The questioner is so heterophobic" or whatever the correct word is.
No you wouldn't. He's just stating facts, nowhere is he being homophobic.
rukamich Apr 17th 2010 2:05PM
Hardly, the "fact" is that who those involved in the relationship are isn't important, and Morton could have come across as less of a jackass if he'd just said "I have two guildmates who are together but do not wish to be known as a couple...". That's it. That's all there is needed, but no, he tossed in the gay aspect.
I would suggest that since Guildie A was promoted over Guildie B, then there is a reason--perhaps A had played longer or was all-around more knowledgeable, perhaps he had been in the guild longer, perhaps B didn't want to be an officer.
Since Morton appears to be the ONLY person with an issue when it comes to loot, Morton needs to lighten up and get over the fact that (in all likelihood) he lost a roll and quit to crying favoritism.
Aryka Apr 17th 2010 2:49AM
To me it sounds like blackmail. Sounds like someone wanted said officer position for themselves now they are conflicted and here's my reasoning
if your in a guild and you don't trust your guild leaders decisions the. You shouldn't be in that guild.
If you felt that said person shouldn't be an officer it would be due to sexual orientation it would be due to ability.
If there has been no problem with loot and themselves ie both plate dps with a dip one buys so other can get it traded to them type thing then there should be no reason for concern.
Lastly if there does happen to be favortism then all you would have to do is tell the gm there has been loot favortism and you know the two are good friends and you think there nigt e foul play. Sexual orientation should never of been brought up.
Again I feel that said partner of said officer is same class as Morton which is why there is an issue. They would of outed a straight couple immediately but has a some brains to be warty with a same sex couple atleast.