Officers' Quarters: A friendly loot system

Hi, I'm a officer in a casual raiding guild, when I say casual is that while we do raid 3/4 days a week, teams are not locked, we offer rotations and try to give our members a nice balance of raiding with just fooling around for achievements or whatever we feel the mood for.
Our loot rules -- to reflect our casual approach -- we use a main spec 1st roll followed by a off-spec roll, with the limitations on one 'need/main spec' roll win per run. That way all have same opportunities to get loot, and one person doesn't accumulate the lot in one single run. We dabbled with point systems before, but didn't workout as teams changed week to week, making those who raid more accumulate so many points that others with less raiding time had no chances over loot so made them raid even less. [. . .]
The 'A team' party got on the usual one-shot boss business until a loot issue appeared. A lovely piece of kit dropped, and everyone in the raid knew who had been talking about it for weeks. he knew the loot tables by heart and every time we faced the boss wished for the drop. Everyone was cheering and congratulating the guy over vent and chat. He had been really unlucky with drops on the last months, and this was his price -- the one item he really was after. Then the problem occurred.
Another person rolled against him, and he won. Now, he did follow the rules, but everyone though he should have acted with more consideration and pass it to the guy who really, really was drooling over it. After all, even we do have rules, we are all friends and we use the right to pass on loot.
The downfall has been huge -- the person who lost felt really hard done by what he thought where a group of friends left the guild, others (even non-raiders) /gquit in protest and support, while others plainly criticized the winner for his lack of consideration and said they will never raid again until he did the 'noble' thing off gquiting himself since he did keep the loot after all the pleas.
I wasn't in that team that day, neither was the GM, so we saw it all happening after. What should I have done?
No rules where broken, so I can not kick a guy for winning a roll, even though morally, in that particular instance because the item, the person and the bad luck he had wasn't considered. I couldn't accept the pleas from others to kick him, didn't seem right, I felt uncomfortable with the public bullying for him to leave and disappointing that people where gquitting right, left and center over one problem.
I did manage to convince most people to come back, except the one who lost the loot, while the one who won stayed and feels (surprise, surprise) that the atmosphere has changed -- towards him in particular quite publicly.
What could I have done differently? And what can be done to avoid this in the future?
Regards,
Anonymous
Just because someone has been drooling over an item for weeks does not entitle them to receive that item over anyone else. Personally, I find this entire situation distasteful. I apologize in advance if this column reads like a rant ...
Bottom line: Loot rules must be obeyed regardless of people's feelings. Yes, the player who won the item could have passed. But that person didn't have to.
Bottom line: Loot rules must be obeyed regardless of people's feelings. Yes, the player who won the item could have passed. But that person didn't have to.
The player who gquit over one piece of loot is wrong. The people who supported him are wrong. You can't say this, of course, in the interest of harmony. But that person who felt entitled is being selfish and tearing the guild apart over one piece of loot. Think about that. You should, if anything, be angry about it.
What is more important to the player who started all this trouble by gquitting? He's been talking a lot about friendship, apparently, but when his own happiness was at stake, it seems that loot was more important to this player than guild harmony. Guild harmony is what allows everyone else to have fun and keep playing together. But apparently he'd rather leave and nearly destroy the guild, due to "lack of consideration." I would argue that he's the one who has no consideration.
The mature thing to do would be to congratulate the other player on winning the loot and wait for another opportunity. That way, the guild could have moved past this incident. Instead, he basically incited a riot. People who weren't even there and don't even raid gquit over it. That's absolutely ridiculous, in my opinion.
Think about how the person who's been bullied over this one piece of loot feels. He may have been drooling just as much over it as the other person, but perhaps he was less vocal about it. Now because he failed to repeatedly state his item-lust or perhaps did not "know the loot tables by heart" like this other guy did -- and if that isn't an indication that someone cares about loot a little too much, I don't know what is -- because of that, he was pressured to pass on an item he won fair and square. Now, because he didn't give in to that pressure to do the "noble" thing, he no longer feels comfortable in his own guild.
It's all well and good to embrace a system where people are free to show generosity toward their fellow guild members by passing on items. It's another situation entirely when players are compelled to do so at the risk of forced exile. That's no longer a fair system, or a system of any kind -- it's a reign of terror.
Anonymous, you were right not to kick this person. If anything, you should support him. Tell your guild that you will uphold the loot rules as they are, not as people want them to be. State that he had as much right to the item as anyone else under your existing rules, and ask that people let it go so the guild can move on and people can get back to having fun. Likewise, emphasize that under the current system people can't call dibs on a piece of loot merely by expressing interest in it. Say that you support people passing on loot in the interest of friendship but that passing is not a requirement. Finally, express dismay that people felt the need to have someone gkicked over a single item and that you won't tolerate such behavior. It's up to you and the other officers to decide when someone deserves to be kicked out. In short, you have to stomp on this entire incident or else you'll risk it happening again and again.
As a concession to those who are still sore about this whole thing, you can offer to change the system if enough people would like a change. There's no reason you can't build in a way for people to improve their rolls on a single, predetermined item. For example, say someone really needs an upgrade to their boots, and they're particularly interested in Taldaram's Soft Slippers. Allow them to declare that in a public place, such as a forum thread. Allow every other raider to do the same. When that item drops, and before anyone rolls, they can choose to add 20 points to their roll (as can anyone else who chose the same item). If they win the item, they can't choose another item to declare for three weeks. If they don't win, they can continue to use the bonus until they win it. You can do whatever you'd like, but that's one way to go about helping people get the items they really want -- without resorting to guild-wide guilt trips!
As for what you could have done differently, if it happens again, the best response is to support your loot system at the time of the incident. Calm people down, and remind your loot-hungry raider that he or she will get another chance. You could even privately express your regret that to this person that he or she did not win, but also explain that the system doesn't give you any other option but to award the loot according to the dice.
If that player chooses to go off the deep end anyway, there's nothing else you can do. Some people, to be perfectly frank, just care too damn much about loot. Your guild is usually better off without such people.
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 10)
Boreddruid Apr 19th 2010 9:09AM
Wow that pic is awesome.
Sithril Apr 19th 2010 2:39PM
It's a Blizzard 2002 X-mas special. I couldn't find the original Blizz link, but if you type : "warcraft party blizzard" into google image than you'll find a few links. (For those who'd be interested.)
vinniedcleaner Apr 19th 2010 9:13AM
Very well put, Scott. I have been on the other end of the loot entitlement stick before and it soured me on raiding. Being told that if x drops then y gets it because of z, takes the fun out of playing.
Res Apr 19th 2010 11:10AM
Now, if the guild had a policy of "whoever APPEARS to want the loot more by being public and loud about it has first dibs" then there might be an issue here. Otherwise I can't believe that people are having trouble seeing the black and white of this issue.
Just because one person is going nuts publicly about a drop doesn't mean the other person doesn't want/need it just as much. He's not being an attention whore about it, but when it dropped he has just as much a right to it as the guy who's losing his mind over it.
The really silly thing about it is how transient gear is anymore.. in 4-5 months when that piece of loot is replaced or upgraded he's going to feel really stupid about being so dramatic and tearing up the guild of "friends" over something like a drop that everyone worked for and everyone has an equal right to.
Res Apr 19th 2010 11:13AM
Sorry that wasn't supposed to be a reply to your particular post, not sure what happened there. Where's my coffee.
Ashstryke Apr 19th 2010 11:28AM
Been in this exact situation myself back around the time when Naxx was all the rage. Guild had loot rules all set up in advance that everyone knew about and followed. About the 3rd or 4th time we downed KT Betrayer of Humanity dropped (at that time the best 2-hander in the game) The GM and myself rolled over the item and I won. Immediately I was harassed mocked and bullied in vent and g-chat to pass on the item and let the GM have it because it was an upgrade for him and he really needs it and its only fair cause its his guild blah blah blah blah blah... For the GM's credit he never directly said anything, but his officers and other members of his "click" within the guild were very vocal about giving him the loot. In the end I did end up passing on the loot hoping that karma would work out for me. It was then that the loot gods decided that I was unworthy and I waited 6 months (truly not exaggerating) to finally win a roll on ANY upgrade (due to plain horrible luck on drops / rolls). A lot of good karma did for me...
cheezygonzalez11 Apr 19th 2010 1:11PM
This would be why I like our suicide kings system... because people who haven't seen their drop in a while get bumped to the top. I started raiding with my group after they had cleared the first wing and were farming it; the first couple weeks I got tons of drops that all the other healers had already picked up. This meant that I stayed at the bottom of the list for awhile and when a nice healer necklace dropped, our resto druid was on top of the healer list and was happy as a clam. The next time it dropped, it went to me.
SK is a good system if you have rotating raiders or pug the same people a lot (we pug with one guy a lot when someone is having technical porblems) because if you don't raid, you don't suicide so you're on the TOP of the list. You don't have as many chances for gear upgrades because you don't kill the boss every week, but when you DO go you get first shot at what you want!
TACO Apr 19th 2010 9:14AM
MY LOOT! HANDS OFF!!
Nah but seriously, I personally would have passed it to that person (I usually roll just to see if I beat them anyway, regardless of whether or not I want the loot).. However I shouldn't be _forced_ to pass it to him just because he's been drooling over it for weeks.
toxicrwk Apr 19th 2010 11:48AM
I hate tards who infest my chat with /roll on loot they dont need -.-
Like when a mage rolls for plate gear and goes "MUAHAHA I WON GIEF LOOT".
Or when some lock goes /macro
/roll
/roll
/roll
/roll
/roll
All i have to say is, when in dala or any other major city, try to setup a /camp.
TACO Apr 19th 2010 5:36PM
I don't mean roll on gear I can't use.
In our guild runs we actually you know.. have fun.. teasing each other etc. If a trinket I already have drops but only one person rolls, I'll roll anyway just to make them squirm.
Irem Apr 19th 2010 6:55PM
The loot council in the group that I run with is about ready to strangle people over doing this. :P
I know it's for fun, but when the person handling loot has however many people waiting for stuff to be distributed so we can move on and they're trying to keep track of who is actually getting items, it's sometimes like pulling teeth to get that one dude to stop screwing around and tell them whether they're actually rolling seriously or not. It's one of those "funny the first six thousand times and now it's just an annoying waste of time" things.
/two copper
TACO Apr 19th 2010 7:35PM
Understandable, but when I am the loot master guess it's easier :P
Also.. turns out I've only done it 5493 times. Many hilarious heart attack moments on vent still to come!
PvtDeth Apr 19th 2010 9:16AM
I agree fully with the article. In the system stated, nobody has any more right to a roll than anyone else. Every raid I miss out on at least one thing that I want, but I don't get all preschool about it. Seriously, leaving a guild over missing a drop is the douchebag move here.
Lachann Apr 19th 2010 9:46AM
I agree with the reply. You can't change the loot rules after an item has dropped, the "winning" player was also there for loot, and the player who knows the loot table inside out does not get the item automatically. When I'm in a group where a player tries to call dibs on an item, I normally say "If you need an item for mainspec of course you can roll on it, but out of fairness please let the other players do the same."
andy1_mack Apr 19th 2010 12:52PM
EPGP
curtisrutland Apr 19th 2010 3:38PM
The biggest problem with EPGP is that it's challenging to explain. Lots of people will understand the mechanics that goes on (effort divided by gear equals priority) but they won't understand why it should be that way. And when someone takes loot over them, they'll feel screwed because they don't understand the system that determines their loot for them.
I like plain old DKP. Earn points for effort, bid points for gear. Gear is only worth what people are willing to pay for it.
Lemons Apr 19th 2010 9:41PM
EPGP is barely different than normal DKP. After I got maybe two pieces of gear I was still at a grave disadvantage vs. the the rest of the old standbys who've been in the guild for months if not years. They said there was some sort of decay that would happen, but I never noticed it...officers and veteran raiders still had mounds more points than me.
I don't care how "fair" a system is...if I have to sit by the wayside for months on end while all the gear I want is being passed out to other people that's not a guild I'm going to stay in.
Rhamona Q Apr 19th 2010 10:26PM
In our guild, the short version of EPGP is, show up for raids. If you show up and get in, you get 100% EP for that night. If you show up but get put on standby, you get 50% EP for the night. This way, if you do get put on standby for a night or two, you're still moving up the ladder, while people who are in the raid winning gear are moving down the ladder. So when you do go, you're probably starting about midway, not at the bottom, and can have a decent chance at stuff.
Joka Apr 19th 2010 9:24AM
The guy who gquit was the dick...
You can't reserve gear just because you want it really, really bad (unless you have some kind of rule for it, which this guild didn't).
Why would you think that others (even guildies) would pass on items that is also upgrades for them? Sure they can be nice and pass if they think you should have it. It might not be as big an upgrade for them, or they only raid once a month and wouldn't use it as much or something... but don't go around asuming ppl will pass on items you want, simply because you want it... and then whining and gquitting(!) - a casual guild(!!) - when they don't.
inxhaine Apr 20th 2010 2:44AM
Everyone is entitled to roll for a piece of equipment they can use, and it is up to people to decide if they want to roll or not...that is the primary loot role in our casual guild.
We also have guild members knowing loot tables by heart...but it never entitles them to better loot.
It is only loot after all....having fun is far more important!