Officers' Quarters: A friendly loot system

Hi, I'm a officer in a casual raiding guild, when I say casual is that while we do raid 3/4 days a week, teams are not locked, we offer rotations and try to give our members a nice balance of raiding with just fooling around for achievements or whatever we feel the mood for.
Our loot rules -- to reflect our casual approach -- we use a main spec 1st roll followed by a off-spec roll, with the limitations on one 'need/main spec' roll win per run. That way all have same opportunities to get loot, and one person doesn't accumulate the lot in one single run. We dabbled with point systems before, but didn't workout as teams changed week to week, making those who raid more accumulate so many points that others with less raiding time had no chances over loot so made them raid even less. [. . .]
The 'A team' party got on the usual one-shot boss business until a loot issue appeared. A lovely piece of kit dropped, and everyone in the raid knew who had been talking about it for weeks. he knew the loot tables by heart and every time we faced the boss wished for the drop. Everyone was cheering and congratulating the guy over vent and chat. He had been really unlucky with drops on the last months, and this was his price -- the one item he really was after. Then the problem occurred.
Another person rolled against him, and he won. Now, he did follow the rules, but everyone though he should have acted with more consideration and pass it to the guy who really, really was drooling over it. After all, even we do have rules, we are all friends and we use the right to pass on loot.
The downfall has been huge -- the person who lost felt really hard done by what he thought where a group of friends left the guild, others (even non-raiders) /gquit in protest and support, while others plainly criticized the winner for his lack of consideration and said they will never raid again until he did the 'noble' thing off gquiting himself since he did keep the loot after all the pleas.
I wasn't in that team that day, neither was the GM, so we saw it all happening after. What should I have done?
No rules where broken, so I can not kick a guy for winning a roll, even though morally, in that particular instance because the item, the person and the bad luck he had wasn't considered. I couldn't accept the pleas from others to kick him, didn't seem right, I felt uncomfortable with the public bullying for him to leave and disappointing that people where gquitting right, left and center over one problem.
I did manage to convince most people to come back, except the one who lost the loot, while the one who won stayed and feels (surprise, surprise) that the atmosphere has changed -- towards him in particular quite publicly.
What could I have done differently? And what can be done to avoid this in the future?
Regards,
Anonymous
Just because someone has been drooling over an item for weeks does not entitle them to receive that item over anyone else. Personally, I find this entire situation distasteful. I apologize in advance if this column reads like a rant ...
Bottom line: Loot rules must be obeyed regardless of people's feelings. Yes, the player who won the item could have passed. But that person didn't have to.
Bottom line: Loot rules must be obeyed regardless of people's feelings. Yes, the player who won the item could have passed. But that person didn't have to.
The player who gquit over one piece of loot is wrong. The people who supported him are wrong. You can't say this, of course, in the interest of harmony. But that person who felt entitled is being selfish and tearing the guild apart over one piece of loot. Think about that. You should, if anything, be angry about it.
What is more important to the player who started all this trouble by gquitting? He's been talking a lot about friendship, apparently, but when his own happiness was at stake, it seems that loot was more important to this player than guild harmony. Guild harmony is what allows everyone else to have fun and keep playing together. But apparently he'd rather leave and nearly destroy the guild, due to "lack of consideration." I would argue that he's the one who has no consideration.
The mature thing to do would be to congratulate the other player on winning the loot and wait for another opportunity. That way, the guild could have moved past this incident. Instead, he basically incited a riot. People who weren't even there and don't even raid gquit over it. That's absolutely ridiculous, in my opinion.
Think about how the person who's been bullied over this one piece of loot feels. He may have been drooling just as much over it as the other person, but perhaps he was less vocal about it. Now because he failed to repeatedly state his item-lust or perhaps did not "know the loot tables by heart" like this other guy did -- and if that isn't an indication that someone cares about loot a little too much, I don't know what is -- because of that, he was pressured to pass on an item he won fair and square. Now, because he didn't give in to that pressure to do the "noble" thing, he no longer feels comfortable in his own guild.
It's all well and good to embrace a system where people are free to show generosity toward their fellow guild members by passing on items. It's another situation entirely when players are compelled to do so at the risk of forced exile. That's no longer a fair system, or a system of any kind -- it's a reign of terror.
Anonymous, you were right not to kick this person. If anything, you should support him. Tell your guild that you will uphold the loot rules as they are, not as people want them to be. State that he had as much right to the item as anyone else under your existing rules, and ask that people let it go so the guild can move on and people can get back to having fun. Likewise, emphasize that under the current system people can't call dibs on a piece of loot merely by expressing interest in it. Say that you support people passing on loot in the interest of friendship but that passing is not a requirement. Finally, express dismay that people felt the need to have someone gkicked over a single item and that you won't tolerate such behavior. It's up to you and the other officers to decide when someone deserves to be kicked out. In short, you have to stomp on this entire incident or else you'll risk it happening again and again.
As a concession to those who are still sore about this whole thing, you can offer to change the system if enough people would like a change. There's no reason you can't build in a way for people to improve their rolls on a single, predetermined item. For example, say someone really needs an upgrade to their boots, and they're particularly interested in Taldaram's Soft Slippers. Allow them to declare that in a public place, such as a forum thread. Allow every other raider to do the same. When that item drops, and before anyone rolls, they can choose to add 20 points to their roll (as can anyone else who chose the same item). If they win the item, they can't choose another item to declare for three weeks. If they don't win, they can continue to use the bonus until they win it. You can do whatever you'd like, but that's one way to go about helping people get the items they really want -- without resorting to guild-wide guilt trips!
As for what you could have done differently, if it happens again, the best response is to support your loot system at the time of the incident. Calm people down, and remind your loot-hungry raider that he or she will get another chance. You could even privately express your regret that to this person that he or she did not win, but also explain that the system doesn't give you any other option but to award the loot according to the dice.
If that player chooses to go off the deep end anyway, there's nothing else you can do. Some people, to be perfectly frank, just care too damn much about loot. Your guild is usually better off without such people.
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
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Reader Comments (Page 4 of 10)
Mordockk Apr 19th 2010 11:20AM
Have any of you ever been down voted before? It's the worse feeling in the world....like the entire internet hates you :*(
Colin Apr 19th 2010 11:31AM
@Mordockk
Oh yeah. I hate when I'm downvoted, because I think I'm being clever but I realize later I sound like a troll.
So I go back to clever oneliners and get upvotes, and the world is right again. :D
Sinthar Apr 19th 2010 11:34AM
@ RetPallyJil
I know you from your posts - i too have posted opinion - and been downrated for it before - sometimes incomprehensibly. If its your true opinion - then post it - who cares if the people reading dont agree - thats what a blog is FOR - for voicing your opinion
@Mordockk
I have - and tbh i rarely care - if my opinions unpopular - its STILL my opinion - if people what to post WHY they disagree - then at least we can discuss it like mature people, if people just downrank n say nothing - then i dont care for their opinion either - cos nothing is worse than having NO opinion on a matter - and downrating others for having one
I have to say i dont think i have seen retpallyjils original comment - but MY opinion is - ill fight to the death for your right to voice your opinion - no matter what it is - i MAY then argue against your opinion - but you have the right to post your opinion if honestly held (and is not sick or twisted)
5318008 Apr 20th 2010 12:57AM
@RetPallyJil... No, you were down-rated because we can't headbutt you over the internet.
Brian Apr 19th 2010 9:34AM
Given the potential for drama surrounding loot, it is absolutely vital that the loot system the group agrees upon is followed. Even though there are good and bad loot systems, picking the "right" one matters less than picking one and sticking with it. NOBODY is going to like a system that changes all the time to give an advantage to one person or another.
If a group feels bad when someone has "bad loot luck" or doesn't get a particular item they want, as does the guild in this story, maybe a pure rolling system isn't the way to go. But throwing away your system when something happens you don't like is a guaranteed recipe for even more drama. And I'd bet that most of the "outraged" folks in the story would not be quite so happy with their own fairly won loot being given away to someone else.
Crowqueen Apr 19th 2010 10:16AM
I feel like this, as a hunter, every time I win a greed roll on a cloth item and the group has a boomkin in it who could use it better. I normally pass on - don't like to be a dog-in-the-manger, and the other person can't need on it - but I dislike the way some people just assume that since they can plausibly use it and I can't, then it's theirs by right and the first thing they do is "Trade plz!" and open a trade window. That just makes me resent them and the system that doesn't allow them to roll need on the item. Also it's possibly because the person in the relevant situation didn't know enough English to know that using the imperative is ruder in our language to a native speaker than asking "Please can I trade that with you" or so on. I had to override a lot of my natural instincts to trade with that guy and it wasn't his fault.
I agree though - if there was no direct rule, then there was no cause for the tantrum to have been thrown.
Jarvish Apr 19th 2010 9:35AM
kk, first of all loot is loot and it will drop again. No doubt about that.
But am I the only one who read "He had been really unlucky with drops on the last months"?
If I had been in a raid with friends, being unlucky with rolls for a very long time - this is not one or two raids, this is months - and one huge upgrade that I had been pining for for a very long time dropped I would be seriously peeved at the friend who rolled against me like that.
I don't think I'd gquit and take a whole lot of people with me, but I'd give some serious thought to my future as a raider "with friends".
Lachann Apr 19th 2010 10:16AM
In reply to "But am I the only one who read "He had been really unlucky with drops on the last months"?" We've all been through periods of having bad luck with drops, but often when you inspect players who claim to have had bad luck in fact their gear isn't so bad after all. Some guilds put DKP systems in place for this exact reason, but if you are using a roll system instead of a DKP system you can't change the rules once the loot has dropped. The letter makes no mention of anyone being unhappy with the roll system before this drama happened.
Duulket Apr 19th 2010 9:55AM
The thing is we don't know if the winner was lucky or unlucky with loot as well and seeing as we don't know that we can't assume anything. If the winner had gotten a lot of loot over the time span then the 'honorable" thing would have been to pass the loot but it was not a rule. If he had not then he shouldn't be expected to give up his fairly won loot to someone who pined over it more vocally.
Shrike Apr 19th 2010 4:55PM
I've seen people say they've "been unlucky with drops" before, when the reason they were "unlucky with drops" is because they're already geared exceptionally well, and virtually nothing is an upgrade. Yes, they get bitchy when the one item that is an unequivocal upgrade drops and is won by someone else... But that doesn't mean it wasn't also an upgrade for the other person, and it might have had MORE of an effect for the other person.
obsol337 Apr 19th 2010 6:43PM
I agree, Jarvish. Months without a big upgrade would sour anyone.
What I'm curious about is the position of the person who won. Without taking sides, I think it's important to know if the winner was the on the "A" team of the guild raids. If he wasn't, I think a case could be made that the loser of the roll should get it simply because it would benefit the guild more (as I assume the loser is in the "A" raiding circle). Nowadays people seem to forget that loot in this environment is a GUILD RESOURCE, and not a personal reward. It should be given to whoever benefits the guild more so that the guild can progress. That isn't explicit in their loot rules, but that seems to be what they're trying to go for.
Now, if they're both regular attendees of the raid, there's no issue and the loser should man up.
Zanathos Apr 20th 2010 6:04AM
If you want people who are unlucky with drops and regular raiders to get upgrades, you need a point based loot system. Or else unlucky with drops is just another way to say selective memory.
theRaptor Apr 19th 2010 9:37AM
My guild uses this system with a slight modification which helps in these situations. You get 10 DKP per raid (3 a week) that can be added to your /roll, and this is reset weekly with whatever you haven't used that week put towards a "golden ticket" (which costs 100DKP and wins you the loot unless someone else has a "golden ticket").
That way if you are a regular raider waiting for just that one piece of loot you won't lose it to someone who raids once a month and gets lucky.
If you /gquit over one piece of loot you are a big baby who needs to build a bridge and get over it. I have plenty of times in my raiding career lost "that one piece of loot" to new guys, ultra-casuals, and scrubs. Just get over it. That said I often pass loot to people who want it more than me.
Literaltruth Apr 19th 2010 9:40AM
I totally agree with the reply here. We have a similar, fairly casual, loot system in my guild and I have to admit that I've been guilty of emphatically stating in vent and talking about particular drops in the hope that if it drops then people will refrain from rolling on it. However, if someone does roll on it and wins it then it's theirs -- I might wish they hadn't, and I might secretly hate them for 10minutes and possibly construct some sort of voodoo doll in their likeness...but I would never cause huge guild drama and gquit over it.
I have the self-awareness to realise that my behaviour is slightly (okay, majorly) manipulative and I do feel occasional pangs of guilt over it. And because of this it really shouldn't be rewarded with whatever drop I set my sights on. The most manipulative raiders should not be rewarded over those who are more quiet and reserved in expressing their desire. Otherwise you'll end up with a guild full of unrepentant loot-whores like this guy (and, I'm sad to say, me).
If the GM of the guild in question does decide to reward the guy who gquit and punish the guy who got the drop though, could they please let me know the guild name and server - it sounds like the kind of place where I could really get geared up.
Brian Apr 19th 2010 9:51AM
I doubt you could get geared up here, and if the guild in question ends up full of "loot-whores", I'd say they're going to fail horribly. Loot-whoring only works if there are people willing to do what you want. Faced with an entire run full of people feeling entitled to loot, you're going to end up with an extremely unhappy and frustrated group.
Kyoruan Apr 19th 2010 9:40AM
The guy who lost the roll really needs to grow up...
We had a situation like that when our small guild hosted a 25-man ToC with Death's Choice on reserve. Lo and behold it dropped and the 5 members of our guild who wanted rolled and I won it... but the raid leader (a real life friend of mine) didn't want to give it to me because his friend (a real life friend of his, but not mine) has been trying to get it for weeks and that's the whole reason why he put it on reserve. My friend did end up giving me the trinket since it was a guild(ish) run and we're all part of the same guild and I won the roll anyway.
The other guy pissed and moaned about it for a week or two and soon after that he left our guild and went back to his older one for some reason or another *cough cough*. I think it took him another two months just to get the trinket...
Toren Apr 19th 2010 9:41AM
Heh. Heh. The tauren in the picture is drinking soy milk.
Guildies helping each other out and passing loot to each other is an amazing thing that makes a guild an awesome group of people, and honestly, is the reason I still play this game. (It's funny how frequently people in my guild get into a game of "No, *you* take it!" arguements.)
But in this case, if it's so important in the guild to "help each other out" then shouldn't the player who lost the roll be happy for his guildmate?
Losing a roll is tough, we all know it. But there's something wrong with the statement "You shouldn't be selfish with that loot. You should give it to *me* because *I* want it. Stop being selfish and give me the loot that I want and be happy for me!"
Either play by your own rules,or change your loot system to: give the loot to whoever talked about it the most in raid chat/vent during the trash clear and kill. Lemme know how that works out for ya.
-T
ducss750 Apr 19th 2010 9:45AM
Retpally:
You are not downrated for disagreeing. You are downrated for bluntly (and rudely) stating your view without supporting it. I suspect if you said:
" I don't agree with the person who rolled against the guildie who wanted the gear. I think he should have been considerate and passed. If he wanted the gear, he should have spoken up either as the raid was beginning or when the loot dropped, and said he was going to roll because he too wanted that piece"
Feel free to use in your logic, that was just filler. State your point, back it up.
Tridus Apr 19th 2010 9:49AM
This is why loot systems not based on randomness exist. Random rolls are inherently unfair, and they create hurt feelings.
Based on the post here, we don't know who was actually more deserving of the item in question. It doesn't really matter. The rules are based on randomness. A random person won for whom the item was an upgrade (presumably). It's all above board.
But if you used a system like SuicideKings or DKP, this wouldn't happen. The guy who REALLY wants the one item above all else can save for it and knows when it's his turn, and so does everybody else. Other loot gets spread around.
Duulket Apr 19th 2010 10:04AM
"We dabbled with point systems before, but didn't workout as teams changed week to week, making those who raid more accumulate so many points that others with less raiding time had no chances over loot so made them raid even less. [. . .]"
The point system only works fairly if you have the same people raiding all the time. With the guild in question being a casual raiding guild you are not going to have the same 10/25 people raiding all the time which means those that are able to raid more get an unfair advantage over those that don't.