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The latest patch 5.4 newsOfficers' Quarters: A friendly loot system
by Scott Andrews 
Apr 19th 2010 at 9:00AM
Hi, I'm a officer in a casual raiding guild, when I say casual is that while we do raid 3/4 days a week, teams are not locked, we offer rotations and try to give our members a nice balance of raiding with just fooling around for achievements or whatever we feel the mood for.
Our loot rules -- to reflect our casual approach -- we use a main spec 1st roll followed by a off-spec roll, with the limitations on one 'need/main spec' roll win per run. That way all have same opportunities to get loot, and one person doesn't accumulate the lot in one single run. We dabbled with point systems before, but didn't workout as teams changed week to week, making those who raid more accumulate so many points that others with less raiding time had no chances over loot so made them raid even less. [. . .]
The 'A team' party got on the usual one-shot boss business until a loot issue appeared. A lovely piece of kit dropped, and everyone in the raid knew who had been talking about it for weeks. he knew the loot tables by heart and every time we faced the boss wished for the drop. Everyone was cheering and congratulating the guy over vent and chat. He had been really unlucky with drops on the last months, and this was his price -- the one item he really was after. Then the problem occurred.
Another person rolled against him, and he won. Now, he did follow the rules, but everyone though he should have acted with more consideration and pass it to the guy who really, really was drooling over it. After all, even we do have rules, we are all friends and we use the right to pass on loot.
The downfall has been huge -- the person who lost felt really hard done by what he thought where a group of friends left the guild, others (even non-raiders) /gquit in protest and support, while others plainly criticized the winner for his lack of consideration and said they will never raid again until he did the 'noble' thing off gquiting himself since he did keep the loot after all the pleas.
I wasn't in that team that day, neither was the GM, so we saw it all happening after. What should I have done?
No rules where broken, so I can not kick a guy for winning a roll, even though morally, in that particular instance because the item, the person and the bad luck he had wasn't considered. I couldn't accept the pleas from others to kick him, didn't seem right, I felt uncomfortable with the public bullying for him to leave and disappointing that people where gquitting right, left and center over one problem.
I did manage to convince most people to come back, except the one who lost the loot, while the one who won stayed and feels (surprise, surprise) that the atmosphere has changed -- towards him in particular quite publicly.
What could I have done differently? And what can be done to avoid this in the future?
Regards,
Anonymous
Just because someone has been drooling over an item for weeks does not entitle them to receive that item over anyone else. Personally, I find this entire situation distasteful. I apologize in advance if this column reads like a rant ...
Bottom line: Loot rules must be obeyed regardless of people's feelings. Yes, the player who won the item could have passed. But that person didn't have to.
Bottom line: Loot rules must be obeyed regardless of people's feelings. Yes, the player who won the item could have passed. But that person didn't have to.
The player who gquit over one piece of loot is wrong. The people who supported him are wrong. You can't say this, of course, in the interest of harmony. But that person who felt entitled is being selfish and tearing the guild apart over one piece of loot. Think about that. You should, if anything, be angry about it.
What is more important to the player who started all this trouble by gquitting? He's been talking a lot about friendship, apparently, but when his own happiness was at stake, it seems that loot was more important to this player than guild harmony. Guild harmony is what allows everyone else to have fun and keep playing together. But apparently he'd rather leave and nearly destroy the guild, due to "lack of consideration." I would argue that he's the one who has no consideration.
The mature thing to do would be to congratulate the other player on winning the loot and wait for another opportunity. That way, the guild could have moved past this incident. Instead, he basically incited a riot. People who weren't even there and don't even raid gquit over it. That's absolutely ridiculous, in my opinion.
Think about how the person who's been bullied over this one piece of loot feels. He may have been drooling just as much over it as the other person, but perhaps he was less vocal about it. Now because he failed to repeatedly state his item-lust or perhaps did not "know the loot tables by heart" like this other guy did -- and if that isn't an indication that someone cares about loot a little too much, I don't know what is -- because of that, he was pressured to pass on an item he won fair and square. Now, because he didn't give in to that pressure to do the "noble" thing, he no longer feels comfortable in his own guild.
It's all well and good to embrace a system where people are free to show generosity toward their fellow guild members by passing on items. It's another situation entirely when players are compelled to do so at the risk of forced exile. That's no longer a fair system, or a system of any kind -- it's a reign of terror.
Anonymous, you were right not to kick this person. If anything, you should support him. Tell your guild that you will uphold the loot rules as they are, not as people want them to be. State that he had as much right to the item as anyone else under your existing rules, and ask that people let it go so the guild can move on and people can get back to having fun. Likewise, emphasize that under the current system people can't call dibs on a piece of loot merely by expressing interest in it. Say that you support people passing on loot in the interest of friendship but that passing is not a requirement. Finally, express dismay that people felt the need to have someone gkicked over a single item and that you won't tolerate such behavior. It's up to you and the other officers to decide when someone deserves to be kicked out. In short, you have to stomp on this entire incident or else you'll risk it happening again and again.
As a concession to those who are still sore about this whole thing, you can offer to change the system if enough people would like a change. There's no reason you can't build in a way for people to improve their rolls on a single, predetermined item. For example, say someone really needs an upgrade to their boots, and they're particularly interested in Taldaram's Soft Slippers. Allow them to declare that in a public place, such as a forum thread. Allow every other raider to do the same. When that item drops, and before anyone rolls, they can choose to add 20 points to their roll (as can anyone else who chose the same item). If they win the item, they can't choose another item to declare for three weeks. If they don't win, they can continue to use the bonus until they win it. You can do whatever you'd like, but that's one way to go about helping people get the items they really want -- without resorting to guild-wide guilt trips!
As for what you could have done differently, if it happens again, the best response is to support your loot system at the time of the incident. Calm people down, and remind your loot-hungry raider that he or she will get another chance. You could even privately express your regret that to this person that he or she did not win, but also explain that the system doesn't give you any other option but to award the loot according to the dice.
If that player chooses to go off the deep end anyway, there's nothing else you can do. Some people, to be perfectly frank, just care too damn much about loot. Your guild is usually better off without such people.
/salute
Send Scott your guild-related questions, conundrums, ideas and suggestions at scott@wow.com. You may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters!Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 5 of 10)
Mutak Apr 19th 2010 10:10AM
@Duulket
That quote should have been the first sign of trouble. If people who don't raid very often are upset that people who raid all the time are getting loot over them, then they are not putting the interests of the group ahead of their own. They are not acting like friends.
Loot is not a reward. Loot is the tool that helps you conquer the next challenge.
L Apr 19th 2010 10:19AM
Those who raid more get an "unfair advantage" over those that do not. How is it unfair that those that put in more effort get more rewards? If player x shows up for every raid and player y shows up once every 3 weeks I can fully understand why player x would be upset that player y recieved loot that they wanted.
Perhaps underneath the leaving in a snit over loot the player that lost the item is really leaving because they discovered that for a consistent raider /roll is the most unfair loot system there is and they'd like to go somewhere where their efforts can be rewarded.
zappo Apr 19th 2010 12:57PM
"Random rolls are inherently unfair, and they create hurt feelings."
Quite the opposite really. Random isn't fair or unfair... it's random. The problem is that by human nature we assign fairness to things. Why is that girl so much prettier than me but such a crappy person? It's unfair! Why is that guy so much richer than me even though I work twice as hard? It's not fair! Why did my house burn to the ground? It's not fair.
The universe doesn't necessarily assign fairness to everything, it's just they way some stuff works. Likewise /random is random. The reason people go with random is because it's simple and it's completely objective. So in theory there is no one to blame and it reduces drama. It doesn't necessarily work that way in the end though. But if you really look deep into problems when /random is involved, you'll typically find that the root of the problem is in the people. People like to put the blame on random rolls, but you put the same people on a different system and you'll still have drama. The problem in this article was believing in entitlement for example.
clundgren Apr 19th 2010 3:21PM
"If player x shows up for every raid and player y shows up once every 3 weeks I can fully understand why player x would be upset that player y recieved loot that they wanted."
Well, this is all a matter of perspective. I would argue that even a /random system rewards the regular raider over the casual.
Let's say the piece in question is Bryntroll, which drops off Marrowgar. You could argue that, over that 3 week period, the person who raids all the time had TRIPLE the chances at winning it over the person who raided once. The fact that he didn't just means he was unlucky, but he was rewarded for his perseverance by having a much greater chance to begin with. And in the long run, those odds will work out in his favour. He WILL get more loot, faster, than the guy who raids 1/3 as often.
So with a random system, raiding more often doesn't guarantee you anything, but it sure increases your odds.
Some systems can offer near guarantees, like dkp, but they aren't without flaws either.
For example, my guild used to run raids 5 nights per week (we've since cut back to 3-4). During the ToC25 era, this meant that only 2 nights were spent on progression content, typically (regular and heroic). The other nights were Uld hard modes, achievements, etc.
What this meant was that the players with the most flexible schedules would go all 5 nights, while others, like me, limited ourselves to the progression nights so we could save our marriages, keep jobs, etc. But this meant that the hardcoregroup built up tons of dkp that was never spent during those "easy" nights and thus always had dibs on progression gear. Thankfully, my guild is full of cool people who believe in passing on stuff to share the wealth, but you can see how here even dkp wasn't totally fair.
Tridus Apr 19th 2010 4:27PM
At the same time, I've been in guilds that used random. I went a month without winning anything, because the RNG dislikes me. Another fellow healing Priest won six rolls in the same time period.
That is random at work. It's gives you a fairness in opportunity, everybody has the same odds. It also gives you wildly unfair results.
Calebe Apr 19th 2010 10:09PM
Like most of this article people seem to making a lot of assumptions. I hate comments like: "Ah that guy raids only twice a month so he is not dedicated to the guild". Why do you assume this? Maybe he has a job that is 2 on 2 off nights? Maybe he is a policeman etc. People please remember this is a game and some people havent got "normal" jobs. I am a high ranking office but have been working aboard for the last six months meaning that sometimes RL + Raid isnt always so good....does that make me any less dedicated? I still keep the website and forums updated. I still get on most days and help people with stuff giving them my metal, my gems and my time, just because i cant raid makes me undedicated??
Dont get me wrong DKP is a good system for a HC guild, but not always for a causal. Causal means exactly that.............causal. Maybe they should try something like the suicide kings system to me, works for both "dedicated" and causal raiders.
I would also say as well that it would be down to the RL to use some common sense as well. Is it really an upgrade? Or is it just the attack of Leetness? What is the rest of the guys kit like? What were they both replacing? If they were on evenish gear but 1 guy had a piece of ilvl200 to replace and the other guys was replacing a piece of 251 etc i may be inclined to try and talk sense with the guy with the 251 and point out that the ilvl264 is 2 of this stat, and 10 more sp and for the other guys is like +20/30 stats and 60 sp. However, if everything is still pretty equal its "LET THE BIGGEST ROLL WIN!!"
GrumblyStuff Apr 19th 2010 9:50AM
Ah, lewts.
I've utterly desired for this and that but, really, I wouldn't deny someone a chance to roll against me. Now I do have an exception in that if I put together a group specifically for farming one particular thing, I would expect people I brought in and are helping to not roll.
Back in BC days, I was healing H Mgt on my priest with the goal of getting the dot trinket for my shadow set. The group knew it but there was that one guy who's in the guild and you've never been too sure about.... Anyway, Mr Frost Mage wanted to roll against me.
In Wrath, when I was hunting the tanking shield from reg HoR, I tanked randoms for chances at it. If there was a paladin or another warrior, I'd ask flat out if they were there for the shield as I was. I didn't ask so I could kick but just so that I wouldn't be surprised by another roll. Same deal hunting the NES from H FoS. I tanked but asked the group if it would be alright to roll on it. No fuss, no dropping group or trying to boot competing rollers.
Raids were the same deal. I never got epic shoulders in BC. Never. Gogo Shoulderguards of the the Bold. I did get to see the drop but since I wasn't tanking regularly when they did and was there as DPS, it sucked to see them go to someone else but gear comes and gear goes. I do think there's pertinent info we're missing in this story though.
At least he wasn't there on another toon and the item got sharded. Still not something to gquit about though.
nieboh Apr 19th 2010 9:51AM
I agree completely, the guy who gquit needs to grow up a bit. I think nearly everyone playing this game has had a particular piece of loot they lusted over and went week after week without seeing it drop. Part of the agony is knowing that even if it does finally drop, that's just part 1. Part 2 is actually winning the roll.
If there is karma in the rng, for the next 4 or 5 weeks of raiding every time he takes down that particular boss the item he wanted so badly should drop. Next time someone else will get it, the next time, maybe someone else... Soon you'll just run out of people who need or even want that item. After he's seen it sharded two or three times, maybe he'll realize what a douche he's been.
Azgrimm Apr 19th 2010 9:53AM
When I was GM of a casual guild, this exact scenario came up. The difference was that I was MT, RL and Master Looter. Tank item comes up that I had been hanging out for for *ages*. Both myself and the OT rolled on it and my OT won. All hell broke loose on Vent because the guild believed I was entitled to it. We managed to get everyone calmed down and very carefully I explained what I was going to do. "The rules apply fairly to all, or to no one. Congrats." and handed him the item.
The rules are rules. If people want to 'give' their roll to someone else that's fine. But otherwise if you change the rules for one person, you have to change them for all.
spiderpk Apr 19th 2010 9:54AM
Since we only know one side of the story (which, for the record, seems to have a viewpoint of a nice, well-mannered friendly person being taken advantage of by a sadistic, selfish egomaniac who abhors friendship), it's difficult to say if the person who rolled did the right thing by keeping the loot - we simply don't know the circumstances.
I've been in the "missing out on highly-desired item XYZ" club for a while now, but as much as I disagree with some of the loot rules in place in our guild and how some rolls have gone in the past I would NEVER consider dropping out of the guild or attempting to cause division because I didn't get the pretty toy I wanted. If someone wins something really spectacular that I wanted, I'll congratulate them in chat and move on.
Allowing the public bashing of someone who won according to the established loot rules would be something to cause *me* to /gquit - I've had my fill of hypocritical, self-serving people in RL and I will NOT deal with it in WoW. Fortunately, I think if that kind of stuff did start happening in my guild we'd be seeing more than a few /gkicks...
Swerto Apr 19th 2010 9:54AM
Awesome.
Eleph Apr 19th 2010 9:54AM
"--the person who lost felt really hard done by what he thought where a group of friends left the guild,"
What?
TheZantoo Apr 19th 2010 11:30AM
Loot dropping is as certain as death and taxes, leaving a guild because they didn't get what they wanted is not the caliber of player you want in your guild anyways. We use a /roll system in my guild, with a slight addition of Loot Council from the GM when/if needed. The only time he uses this power is if it's a massive upgrade for someone and only slight for another person. This works brilliantly for us because everyone in the guild cares about how well we do as a whole and we all trust our GM.
You absolutely did the right thing in not booting the opposing player. In all reality the guy who won probably deserves it more because he didn't constantly talk about how badly he wants XYZ loot.
Thoorin Apr 19th 2010 9:55AM
This sort of thing is why I hate guilds with plain /roll and similiar systems.
My point of view may be skewed as I joined a DKP progression raiding guild a year ago as a total level 1 n00b and made my way to 80 and then to top 15 best geared and best dps raiders in the guild during that time, with a guild-ordered mainspec change two months into my raiding career. I lived with the DKP since the beginning and still made my way to ~5900GS (thank you wow.com for link to wtfismygearscore.com!) without any loot drama. All it took was some patience and planning.
DKP in the various modifications is usually the best way to avoid DRAMA, if implemented properly. I know of guilds which distribute DKP bid on loot to all members (excluding twinks) who were active in a preceeding week (eg. participated in at least one raid event) or made appropriate contributions to GB in the said week (therefore contributing to the part of raiding effort covered by GB, if any) - this is a measure to prevent exclusion of people who raid less. Newcomers can be furnished with an arbitrary amount of DKP spread over their first 3-5 raids, preventing point deflation. Additionally, DKP purchases may be limited to a declared mainspec items, with what is offspec for you going to /roll if no mainspec users bid on a given piece, thus prioritizing raiders who will actually use the item in their selected/assigned raiding role over DKP-rich players who only collect their second-spec kit... and so on.
With DKP, you simply either spend or save, that's all there is to it; whoever has most - wins. Want that Deathbringer's Will so badly? Then let others get other loot and save up! And what's best it doesn't exclude a chance of a better-geared player being generous and deliberately passing to allow an item be purchased by someone with smaller DKP budget who will benefit more from a major upgrade.
Happened to me more than once.
Another system is a total officer tyranny - I know a guild where officers use the forum to post stats, discuss member results and gearing, and pre-assign drops to players who, from their viewpoint, will benefit most from a given item. In this sort of environment you precisely know that only the third Bryn'troll that drops is gonna be yours, period. Don't like it - go ahead and /gquit.
Leaving things at wishy-washy "we're friends" and /roll is the worst thing you can do, ant unfortunately that is how i see the situation described in the letter. So get ur DKP running! In b4 /say drama in front of the North/South Bank.
Chrissie Apr 19th 2010 9:57AM
Some of this requires more details. If this was an ilvl 264 upgrade that this person was drooling so vocally over because they were stuck with some ilvl 200 crap they just did not manage to replace in that slot, and then someone who had an ilvl 251 item in that slot decided "ah heck" and rolled against them, then I still agree with the article, but I also think the person who rolled is a bit of a jerk.
With no further information given, I could not agree more with the article. Suck it, drama queen.
Wolftech Apr 19th 2010 9:59AM
This is just one more example of why a loot system based on RNG sucks. I have just had loot dry-spell myself with no drops I needed for the last 2 months (fortunately, that changed when I finally won a token to upgrade my t10). Some sort of DKP type system or loot council is best. Personally, I prefer the Suicide Kings method (with some of the common modifications). While no system is perfect, something that is completely random is the worse possible method and will always at some point cause an issue.
If this guy's guild had not been lazy and used a fair loot distribution system, then the drama could have been avoided. Random is not fair. How is random fair when every week the same guy wins a piece of loot and others on the raid don't for months. When that happens the one who has lost out on loot falls behind on their role, and they either have to work that much harder to keep up (thus taking the game from fun to work) or risk being a hindrance to the raid.
I am sorry, I side with the guy who has been waiting for weeks for the one piece he needed. While /gquiting was not the way to go, I can see his frustration. If the guy he rolled would have been a true guildie, then he would have know that this one piece of loot is what the guy wants (and from the email it sounds like they guy who wanted the loot in the first place wasn't any sort of loot whore) and wouldn't have rolled against him.
Artitian Apr 19th 2010 10:02AM
There seems to be a problem with your system and the way your guild wants loot distribution. Sounds like the roll system was only working when no one was in contention for the same pieces. The easiest solution to the problem? Just have a vote among the people in the 10 man as to who should get the gear. It's quick, simple, and all the cards are on the table. If they want to reward the guy who's been there the longest and/or the person who it's the biggest upgrade, they can. It's up to them.
I know Scott suggested a "dibs" type system. But it's been my experience that this causes more problems than solution. It becomes kind of a shouting match where they think the person who makes the biggest stink will get the prize.
clundgren Apr 19th 2010 3:33PM
Wow...this sounds like a *terrible* system.
1. You are going to stop the raid to vote on every piece of loot that more than one person wants. Good God.
2. It would turn loot distribution into a popularity contest more than anything else. Good luck bringing new people into your raid, or vying for loot against the GL, etc.
Artitian Apr 20th 2010 9:04AM
In reply to Clundgren's points:
1) The raid is always stopped to distribute loot no matter what distribution model is used so what difference would it be to have people vote? From the article using "Team A" as an indicator it sounds like he's running 10 man content. Not every piece of gear will be contested.
2) Did you read the original post? The people are willing to leave a guild so someone else could get a piece of loot. To me, that's an obvious sign that there are people who are willing to let the gear go to the person they believe deserves it. It's just a modified version of loot council. Guilds run it everyday with no problem. It's up to the raid party to decide whether it's going to be a popularity contest or they're going to give to the person who "deserves" it more. You can't just automatically assume the worst out of people until they actually prove it.
Mutak Apr 19th 2010 10:01AM
Friendly loot systems work fine as long as everyone is acting like friends. As soon as someone stops doing that (rolling on loot someone else is LUSTing after or gquitting after they don't get the loot they want) then the system breaks down.
Very few raid groups are comprised entirely of mature people who ALWAYS treat all of the other members like friends, which is why friendly loot rules rarely work out.
A decent point or loot council system requires some work to implement and maintain, but it saves drama.