Cataclysm raid progression refinements

Today Blizzard released some stunning new standards for raids in the upcoming Cataclysm expansion. Chief amongst these changes, which every WoW player should be aware of, is the combining of 10- and 25-man loot tables, 10- and 25-man raid lockouts, and the continuation of gated content.
No longer will 25-man raids provide better gear than 10-man raids (although they will drop more of the gear), and no longer will players be able to farm both the 10-man and 25-man version of a raid dungeon each week.
The following are the bullet points of this announcement:
No longer will 25-man raids provide better gear than 10-man raids (although they will drop more of the gear), and no longer will players be able to farm both the 10-man and 25-man version of a raid dungeon each week.
The following are the bullet points of this announcement:
- 10- and 25- man raids in Cataclysm will share the same lockout
- Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel
- 10- and 25- man bosses will be close in difficulty
- 10- and 25- man bosses will drop the exact same items
- 25-man bosses will drop a higher quantity of loot, but not quality
- For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid.
- Content will continue to be gated
- First Cataclysm raids will be tuned for players in dungeons blues and crafted items
The full statement after the break.
Cataclysm Raid Progression RefinementsWe're continuing to refine the raid progression paths in Cataclysm, and we'd like to share some of those changes with you today. Please enjoy!
The first of the refinements being made is that we're combining all raid sizes and difficulties into a single lockout. Unlike today, 10- and 25-player modes of a single raid will share the same lockout. You can defeat each raid boss once per week per character. In other words, if you wanted to do both a 10- and 25-person raid in a single week, you'd need to do so on two different characters. Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel. Obviously the raid lockout change doesn't apply in pure Icecrown terms though, as this change goes hand-in-hand with a few other changes to raid progression in Cataclysm.
We're designing and balancing raids so that the difficulty between 10- and 25-player versions of each difficulty will be as close as possible to each other as we can achieve. That closeness in difficulty also means that we'll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty. They'll have the same name and same stats; they are in fact the exact same items. Choosing Heroic mode will drop a scaled-up version of those items. Our hope is that players will be able to associate bosses with their loot tables and even associate specific artwork with specific item names to a far greater extent than today.
Dungeon Difficulty and Rewards
10- and 25-player (normal difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
10- and 25-player (Heroic difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop more powerful versions of the normal-difficulty items.
We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people. The raid designers are designing encounters with these changes in mind, and the class designers are making class changes to help make 10-person groups easier to build. Running 25-player raids will be a bit more lucrative, as should be expected, but if for a week or two you need to do 10s because half the guild is away on vacation, you can do that and not suffer a dramatic loss to your ability to get the items you want.
We recognize that very long raids can be a barrier for some players, but we also want to provide enough encounters for the experience to feel epic. For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid. All of these bosses would drop the same item level gear, but the dungeons themselves being different environments will provide some variety in location and visual style, as well as separate raid lockouts. Think of how you could raid Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep separately, but you might still want to hit both every week.
We do like how gating bosses over time allows the community to focus on individual encounters instead of just racing to the end boss, so we're likely to keep that design moving forward. We don't plan to impose attempt limitations again though, except maybe in cases of rare optional bosses (like Algalon). Heroic mode may not be open from day one, but will become available after defeating normal mode perhaps as little as once or twice.
In terms of tuning, we want groups to be able to jump into the first raids pretty quickly, but we also don't want them to overshadow the Heroic 5-player dungeons and more powerful quest rewards. We'll be designing the first few raid zones assuming that players have accumulated some blue gear from dungeons, crafted equipment, or quest rewards. In general, we want you and your guild members to participate in and enjoy the level up experience.
We design our raids to be accessible to a broad spectrum of players, so we want groups to be able to make the decision about whether to attempt the normal or Heroic versions of raids pretty quickly. The goal with all of these changes is to make it as much of a choice or effect of circumstance whether you raid as a group of 10 or as a group of 25 as possible. Whether you're a big guild or a small guild the choice won't be dependent on what items drop, but instead on what you enjoy the most.
We realize that with any changes to progression pathways there are going to be questions. We're eagerly awaiting any that we may have left unanswered. To the comments!
The first of the refinements being made is that we're combining all raid sizes and difficulties into a single lockout. Unlike today, 10- and 25-player modes of a single raid will share the same lockout. You can defeat each raid boss once per week per character. In other words, if you wanted to do both a 10- and 25-person raid in a single week, you'd need to do so on two different characters. Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel. Obviously the raid lockout change doesn't apply in pure Icecrown terms though, as this change goes hand-in-hand with a few other changes to raid progression in Cataclysm.
We're designing and balancing raids so that the difficulty between 10- and 25-player versions of each difficulty will be as close as possible to each other as we can achieve. That closeness in difficulty also means that we'll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty. They'll have the same name and same stats; they are in fact the exact same items. Choosing Heroic mode will drop a scaled-up version of those items. Our hope is that players will be able to associate bosses with their loot tables and even associate specific artwork with specific item names to a far greater extent than today.
Dungeon Difficulty and Rewards
10- and 25-player (normal difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
10- and 25-player (Heroic difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop more powerful versions of the normal-difficulty items.
We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people. The raid designers are designing encounters with these changes in mind, and the class designers are making class changes to help make 10-person groups easier to build. Running 25-player raids will be a bit more lucrative, as should be expected, but if for a week or two you need to do 10s because half the guild is away on vacation, you can do that and not suffer a dramatic loss to your ability to get the items you want.
We recognize that very long raids can be a barrier for some players, but we also want to provide enough encounters for the experience to feel epic. For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid. All of these bosses would drop the same item level gear, but the dungeons themselves being different environments will provide some variety in location and visual style, as well as separate raid lockouts. Think of how you could raid Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep separately, but you might still want to hit both every week.
We do like how gating bosses over time allows the community to focus on individual encounters instead of just racing to the end boss, so we're likely to keep that design moving forward. We don't plan to impose attempt limitations again though, except maybe in cases of rare optional bosses (like Algalon). Heroic mode may not be open from day one, but will become available after defeating normal mode perhaps as little as once or twice.
In terms of tuning, we want groups to be able to jump into the first raids pretty quickly, but we also don't want them to overshadow the Heroic 5-player dungeons and more powerful quest rewards. We'll be designing the first few raid zones assuming that players have accumulated some blue gear from dungeons, crafted equipment, or quest rewards. In general, we want you and your guild members to participate in and enjoy the level up experience.
We design our raids to be accessible to a broad spectrum of players, so we want groups to be able to make the decision about whether to attempt the normal or Heroic versions of raids pretty quickly. The goal with all of these changes is to make it as much of a choice or effect of circumstance whether you raid as a group of 10 or as a group of 25 as possible. Whether you're a big guild or a small guild the choice won't be dependent on what items drop, but instead on what you enjoy the most.
We realize that with any changes to progression pathways there are going to be questions. We're eagerly awaiting any that we may have left unanswered. To the comments!
Filed under: Cataclysm






Reader Comments (Page 2 of 23)
Brian Apr 26th 2010 2:33PM
Having the same loot tables for 10/25-man raids could also free up time for developers and artists to focus on other areas since they don't have to create as many new items as before. Just speculating :P
Karmatrain Apr 26th 2010 2:40PM
This is a Great Idea:
-For everyone that is saying it will kill the PuGs you are right. That's what Blizz wants they want you in a guild playing and advancing through the guild lvling systems.
-More options for small and large guilds with players with limited playtime. No More oh tank/healer/top dpsers the had to go 2 hours into the raid for wife/kid aggro or what ever, guess we aren't raiding anymore.
-Also not having to commit to 4-6 hours to tackle 12 bosses may encourage people who don't raid now to do so expanding the number of raiders in guilds and pushing them into 25 man content b/c it will be more lucrative.
-The current system allows 10 Man players to 'game' the system by getting 25-man ilevel gear hence making 10-mans easier. This change will do away with that.
This is a very good thing for small guilds
hawaiiansouljah Apr 26th 2010 3:19PM
Terrible? This is nothing new, this is Vanilla WoW once more and I for one support it!
Codexx Apr 26th 2010 3:20PM
It's absolutely wonderful that everyone who thinks these changes are bad are being downvoted.
I wouldn't mind their difficulty being brought up, or them sharing the same level of gear. It's that lockout. If my guild can't get 25 people for progression one night, we have 20 people that want to raid. Either they need to pick 10 each night or they need to tell half of us to come back next week and hope for 5 more people.
The system in Wrath works fine. I'm sure it adds some strain on the designers who have to put the items in, but the system as a whole functions. As it is, I never raid ICC 10. Why? Because, I never get invited to my guild runs for it, and the couple of times I've tried PuG'ing it, they've always been fail groups that wipe on Marrowgar. The only people running 10 mans right now are people who are without a raid group that have organized something on off nights, and noobs who PuG each week and don't realize they suck. The concern for 25 mans is that people will say "meh, it's too hard to find a group for 25 man, I may as well just do 10 man" and then they're saved. As it is, people in my guild have been getting themselves saved to VoA lately, and our guild runs it on Tuesday. Allowing them to do a quick 10 man and get saved is just asking for trouble.
Phoulmouth Apr 26th 2010 4:14PM
You are right, it is an absolutely horrible idea. Saying it will be the end of 25 man raiding is not at all an overstatement. If you get the same gear for doing easier content then what reason is there to do the more difficult content?
Do not make the mistake of saying that 10 mans are not inherently easier than 25 mans either. If you think so then you are pretty damn clueless. You need to get less people to do their jobs properly in 10s than in 25s. this one fact makes 10 mans 100% easier than 25s. Anyone who disagrees with this needs to remove head from arse.
Loot distribution will ultimately be the key to whether or not this change destroys 25 man raiding. Lets look at the logistics 10 man/25 man reduces to a 2/5 ratio. In order to keep 25 man interest this ratio needs to be directly proportionate to loot drops. This ultimately means that in order to keep things even 10 mans should drop 2 items per boss and 25 mans should drop 5. At this point, assuming loot drops are evenly proportionate why do the more difficult 25 man content when your %chance of loot drops is the same as in 10s? Also if you are dropping 5 items per boss in 25 mans you are gearing an entire guild inside of 5 raid weeks easily.
In order to keep 25 mans progressive you cant really drop more than 3 items per boss. If you take the above ratio into consideration then you are dropping 1.2 items per 10 man raid boss. So rounding that you get 1 loot per 10 man boss and 3 per 25 man boss. This will keep interest into 25 mans and keep people replaying content for longer but will neuter interest in 10 mans.
The entire idea of shared lock outs and shared loot is absolutely horrible and was not at all properly thought out. The current raiding and tier system that is in game right now (ICC) is perfect and does not need to be redone. If blizzard does go and change things like this they will lose hundreds of thousands of, maybe a million+, accounts.
CaryEverett Apr 26th 2010 4:47PM
Why do I think this is a terrible idea?
I already run 10 and 25 mans. I pugged 10 mans, and ran 25 mans with my guild.
It gave me something to do all week. Now what? I complete my guild raids in 1-2 days and sit bored for the rest of the week?
*sigh* The people it REALLY hurts are those who enjoyed BOTH.
Clydtsdk-Rivendare Apr 26th 2010 4:55PM
You're all missing the real point: less of a chance we'll need "Deathwell Radiance".
Eisengel Apr 26th 2010 7:10PM
This is an absolutely fabulous thing. Honestly, even if they implement any 2 of the above bullets, I'd be happy. If they're implementing all of them, I'm ecstatic.
25-man rewards you for having more warm bodies. That's all. My guild is strictly 10-man (and sometimes we need to PuG in 1 or 2 slots), and every time I've subbed into a 25-man raid I'm stunned at how easy it is and how much I would outperform classes with better gear (and better scaling/abilities, since over the course of Wrath the classes have gotten a lot closer than they were). I can pretty much say, for my server at least and during the times I play, that 25-man raids are stunningly less organized, less attentive, less mature or capable as 10-man raids that I've seen. I've never seen anything in a 25-man that justified better gear, other than the fact that they herded more people into the same raid.
I'm not saying that all 25-man raids are terrible, only that the ones I've seen have been, and they in no way earned better gear drops. They received better drops because they had enough people sign on at once.
Since all bosses will be approximately as difficult, the same hard modes will exist, and the same loot will be there, then your guild can choose what is best for the guild. If you want to roll 2 10-man teams, go ahead. As pointed out above, 25-man raids will net the whole raid faster progression through the gear, so if you have the guild size for that, then that is a good option for you.
Let me pose the opposite question, why should we keep 25-man raids as they are now? Is there a point? Remember, they were new at one point as well, raiding used to be 40-man. Does it make the entire game more fun if you want to raid for better gear, but can't because your guild is too small and your server population is low or you don't play at peak times?
25-man raids go through the same content (aren't any 'more epic') in the same order (no optional bosses or extras), and soon, will be at the same level of difficulty. Why shouldn't the rewards be the same?
Anathemys Apr 26th 2010 7:41PM
@Rhabella
No, he got downrated for not explaining. "It's a terrible idea" is just a thought.
Back on the topic, I personally love this idea. My guild is small, and now we can get the same level of gear as everyone else. Sure, it'll take longer, but now that there's a light at the end of the tunnel, we can start goin' for it.
Gothia Apr 27th 2010 4:31AM
This is a wonderful change that has been a long time coming. The difference between 10 man and 25 man progression shouldn't be as wide as it is currently today. Why do 10 man raids have to wait until hard mode for tier gear for downing the same bosses as 25 man normal groups? That has never made sense to me and I for one welcome this change. No, this will not be the end of 25 man raids because their is still an incentive for larger guilds to do them without penalizing smaller guild is a good change that as I will say again is long overdue.
Notice: Epeen punks you will not go anywhere because there isn't anywhere to go so sit back, buckle your seat belt, and enjoy the ride. This is not the end of YOU.
Brad Apr 27th 2010 7:51AM
Some of you are missing it. Most people play this game to interact with multitudes of people. This is a PVE game so most of this interaction is through raiding. This is a Guild killer. There is no point in guilds if all content is pug-able. That is why i maintain status in a 25 man guild. If all the loot is readily available to the 12 yr old kid that plays for 3-4 hrs a week then what is the point? They already have taken gear itemization away. This is what separated the children and the people that have played this game for 4-5yrs.
Rob Apr 27th 2010 9:35AM
Wow, this is very interesting. I can't say it will kill 25 man raids, but its got to be close. I think, honestly, that the devs should not limit too much what people can do in the game. By putting all these limitations in the game, sure it helps casuals like myself, but it hurts those guys who really want to do all the raid content every week. Right now there are still people very interested in TOC25 and ICC25; TOC25 provides loot a step above badge gear (or can fill in holes at the least), in addition to the T9.5 token and recipes. Great stuff, great rewards. ICC25 is of course the pinnacle, so lots of reasons to run that.
What I'm seeing and have seen is that people who PUG this expansion really got short-shift. If you PUGed the whole thing, chances are 1) You never seen the end of NAXX. 2) Never seen the end of Ulduar (the guild on our server FINALLLY got Yogg+0 last night, think about that). 3) Never seen/will see the end of ICC (or heck even the middle). So, there is a ton of content that you missed because the raids require multiple lockouts. Now, smaller (less bosses) raids help, and homogenization helps; but PUGs are going to be harder to make, since people are going to be very stingey in deciding if they can do the content w/ their guild.
I don't really have a point, but my feeling is that PUGing the current tier is going to be more challenging, and 25s are certainly going to be even more rare.
I also predict they will change this after the first tier of raids, once they figured out this isn't where they want to go (they have changed their system literally every raid tier (since 4 at least), its a safe prediction).
Sky Apr 27th 2010 12:03PM
I think this is a terrible idea because it puts all the incentives on 10 man raids. And while I do think that there are guilds that will still do 25 man raids just for the epic feel of it, I think more and more guilds will move towards doing 10 man content. Most people do the 25 mans for loot, achievements and mounts. Blizzard is taking loot out of that equation and possibly mounts as well. I wouldn't be surprised if majority of the raiding guilds are doing 10 man content at the end of Cataclysm.
Blizzard thinks they are helping the little guy out with this change but in the end they are the ones who get shafted. Now 25-man raids have all the incentive to take the core people and cut the people who arent as good as the core. The mentality would be "We shouldnt bring X and Y to our 25 man raid because hes not as good as the rest of us. We should just do a 10 man raid and get the same loot without those baddies".
BlackTiger Apr 28th 2010 2:08AM
"You read what he said. More loot per player. If you have a big enough guild, 25-mans are still the way to go."
What? Are you from China or Northern Korea? People go to 25 not because of "amount of loot", but because of higher level of that loot.
This change will kill 25-ppl raids, which is terrible idea.
Evandrial Apr 26th 2010 11:40AM
woah.
Zayd Apr 26th 2010 11:56AM
Dude.
Ibid. Apr 26th 2010 12:11PM
Relax. It's not that big of a deal.
DarkFinch Apr 26th 2010 12:43PM
Sweeeeeett!!!
relmatos Apr 26th 2010 12:48PM
woah indeed.
over a year asking for this.
Now they just have to go one step further and make it so that people can raid from 5man up to 40man.
Grovinofdarkhour Apr 26th 2010 12:53PM
LEAF!!!!!!!