Cataclysm raid progression refinements

Today Blizzard released some stunning new standards for raids in the upcoming Cataclysm expansion. Chief amongst these changes, which every WoW player should be aware of, is the combining of 10- and 25-man loot tables, 10- and 25-man raid lockouts, and the continuation of gated content.
No longer will 25-man raids provide better gear than 10-man raids (although they will drop more of the gear), and no longer will players be able to farm both the 10-man and 25-man version of a raid dungeon each week.
The following are the bullet points of this announcement:
No longer will 25-man raids provide better gear than 10-man raids (although they will drop more of the gear), and no longer will players be able to farm both the 10-man and 25-man version of a raid dungeon each week.
The following are the bullet points of this announcement:
- 10- and 25- man raids in Cataclysm will share the same lockout
- Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel
- 10- and 25- man bosses will be close in difficulty
- 10- and 25- man bosses will drop the exact same items
- 25-man bosses will drop a higher quantity of loot, but not quality
- For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid.
- Content will continue to be gated
- First Cataclysm raids will be tuned for players in dungeons blues and crafted items
The full statement after the break.
We're continuing to refine the raid progression paths in Cataclysm, and we'd like to share some of those changes with you today. Please enjoy!
The first of the refinements being made is that we're combining all raid sizes and difficulties into a single lockout. Unlike today, 10- and 25-player modes of a single raid will share the same lockout. You can defeat each raid boss once per week per character. In other words, if you wanted to do both a 10- and 25-person raid in a single week, you'd need to do so on two different characters. Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel. Obviously the raid lockout change doesn't apply in pure Icecrown terms though, as this change goes hand-in-hand with a few other changes to raid progression in Cataclysm.
We're designing and balancing raids so that the difficulty between 10- and 25-player versions of each difficulty will be as close as possible to each other as we can achieve. That closeness in difficulty also means that we'll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty. They'll have the same name and same stats; they are in fact the exact same items. Choosing Heroic mode will drop a scaled-up version of those items. Our hope is that players will be able to associate bosses with their loot tables and even associate specific artwork with specific item names to a far greater extent than today.
Dungeon Difficulty and Rewards
10- and 25-player (normal difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
10- and 25-player (Heroic difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop more powerful versions of the normal-difficulty items.
We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people. The raid designers are designing encounters with these changes in mind, and the class designers are making class changes to help make 10-person groups easier to build. Running 25-player raids will be a bit more lucrative, as should be expected, but if for a week or two you need to do 10s because half the guild is away on vacation, you can do that and not suffer a dramatic loss to your ability to get the items you want.
We recognize that very long raids can be a barrier for some players, but we also want to provide enough encounters for the experience to feel epic. For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid. All of these bosses would drop the same item level gear, but the dungeons themselves being different environments will provide some variety in location and visual style, as well as separate raid lockouts. Think of how you could raid Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep separately, but you might still want to hit both every week.
We do like how gating bosses over time allows the community to focus on individual encounters instead of just racing to the end boss, so we're likely to keep that design moving forward. We don't plan to impose attempt limitations again though, except maybe in cases of rare optional bosses (like Algalon). Heroic mode may not be open from day one, but will become available after defeating normal mode perhaps as little as once or twice.
In terms of tuning, we want groups to be able to jump into the first raids pretty quickly, but we also don't want them to overshadow the Heroic 5-player dungeons and more powerful quest rewards. We'll be designing the first few raid zones assuming that players have accumulated some blue gear from dungeons, crafted equipment, or quest rewards. In general, we want you and your guild members to participate in and enjoy the level up experience.
We design our raids to be accessible to a broad spectrum of players, so we want groups to be able to make the decision about whether to attempt the normal or Heroic versions of raids pretty quickly. The goal with all of these changes is to make it as much of a choice or effect of circumstance whether you raid as a group of 10 or as a group of 25 as possible. Whether you're a big guild or a small guild the choice won't be dependent on what items drop, but instead on what you enjoy the most.
We realize that with any changes to progression pathways there are going to be questions. We're eagerly awaiting any that we may have left unanswered. To the comments!
The first of the refinements being made is that we're combining all raid sizes and difficulties into a single lockout. Unlike today, 10- and 25-player modes of a single raid will share the same lockout. You can defeat each raid boss once per week per character. In other words, if you wanted to do both a 10- and 25-person raid in a single week, you'd need to do so on two different characters. Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel. Obviously the raid lockout change doesn't apply in pure Icecrown terms though, as this change goes hand-in-hand with a few other changes to raid progression in Cataclysm.
We're designing and balancing raids so that the difficulty between 10- and 25-player versions of each difficulty will be as close as possible to each other as we can achieve. That closeness in difficulty also means that we'll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty. They'll have the same name and same stats; they are in fact the exact same items. Choosing Heroic mode will drop a scaled-up version of those items. Our hope is that players will be able to associate bosses with their loot tables and even associate specific artwork with specific item names to a far greater extent than today.
Dungeon Difficulty and Rewards
10- and 25-player (normal difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
10- and 25-player (Heroic difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop more powerful versions of the normal-difficulty items.
We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people. The raid designers are designing encounters with these changes in mind, and the class designers are making class changes to help make 10-person groups easier to build. Running 25-player raids will be a bit more lucrative, as should be expected, but if for a week or two you need to do 10s because half the guild is away on vacation, you can do that and not suffer a dramatic loss to your ability to get the items you want.
We recognize that very long raids can be a barrier for some players, but we also want to provide enough encounters for the experience to feel epic. For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid. All of these bosses would drop the same item level gear, but the dungeons themselves being different environments will provide some variety in location and visual style, as well as separate raid lockouts. Think of how you could raid Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep separately, but you might still want to hit both every week.
We do like how gating bosses over time allows the community to focus on individual encounters instead of just racing to the end boss, so we're likely to keep that design moving forward. We don't plan to impose attempt limitations again though, except maybe in cases of rare optional bosses (like Algalon). Heroic mode may not be open from day one, but will become available after defeating normal mode perhaps as little as once or twice.
In terms of tuning, we want groups to be able to jump into the first raids pretty quickly, but we also don't want them to overshadow the Heroic 5-player dungeons and more powerful quest rewards. We'll be designing the first few raid zones assuming that players have accumulated some blue gear from dungeons, crafted equipment, or quest rewards. In general, we want you and your guild members to participate in and enjoy the level up experience.
We design our raids to be accessible to a broad spectrum of players, so we want groups to be able to make the decision about whether to attempt the normal or Heroic versions of raids pretty quickly. The goal with all of these changes is to make it as much of a choice or effect of circumstance whether you raid as a group of 10 or as a group of 25 as possible. Whether you're a big guild or a small guild the choice won't be dependent on what items drop, but instead on what you enjoy the most.
We realize that with any changes to progression pathways there are going to be questions. We're eagerly awaiting any that we may have left unanswered. To the comments!
Filed under: Cataclysm






Reader Comments (Page 23 of 23)
Roshota Apr 29th 2010 2:45PM
The difference in difficulty between 10 and 25 man raids in WotLK has been very minimal for the most part. I even remember arguments that Naxx-25 was easier then Naxx-10. However, I see this change as more about trying to deal with the gear/stat inflation issue then anything else. The developers have stated before that having four modes per dungeon was a large factor contributing to the inflation, and cutting the number of iLvl tiers that have to be made for each dungeon would bring things back into line with what it looked like we would see at the beginning of WotLK - two modes per raid. Instead of 10- and 25-man versions now we are going to see Normal and Heroic. The real challange now will be balancing the difficulties of the 10- and 25-man versions so that they feel the same, and thus deserve the same rewards.
linksocarina7 Apr 29th 2010 2:59PM
It's amazing how easily threatened some people are. I don't have a problem with any of the changes, and I've been a raider since Vanilla. I think people forget that World of Warcraft is a business, and, when it comes to businesses, art imitates life. The games changes according to how the majority of people play it, so that they will keep playing. I have not been happy with all of the changes Blizzard has made over the years, but I do think they've done a great job providing content for everyone ranging from the hard core raider to the casual player. 25 man raiding isn't going away, you just now have to choose. And, judging from the lack of 25 man Kingslayer titles I've seen, (if you check the achievements, most are on 10 player), it's a smart move. More people are doing 10 man raiding than 25 man. This didn't just start with the LK. Few guilds have completed TOGC 25 man or even Ulduar 25 man, forget the hard modes. So the 25 man guilds that will downsize into 10 mans in Cataclysm, aren't doing much 25 man progression anyway.
It comes down to how you want to play and who you want to play with. These changes aren't going to affect something that has been true since day 1 on wow: make friends with people with the same game goals you have and you'll maximize your chances to achieve all you want in wow.
Haan Apr 30th 2010 12:45AM
Hello,
I am a systems project manager for a large corporation and wanted to give my point of view on the newly announced raid changes and what I think this means to the future of World of Warcraft. To those that read through the entire post I thank you for your time and look forward to your comments.
Statement #1: “…we'll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty.”
My interpretation: Blizzard reducing development costs.
Creating raid loot items requires time and money for artwork, “lore“, and play balancing. Instead of creating unique items for both the 10- and 25-player raid versions it’s simply cheaper to use the same item content for both. Their explanation was that their “hope is that players will be able to associate bosses with their loot tables and even associate specific artwork with specific item names to a far greater extent than today.” In my opinion people interested in raiding and the loot contained in those raids are familiar with this knowledge already. Also, many addons already display this information (for those that don’t want to alt-tab and look it up online in ~10 seconds). I think they should have omitted this statement from the post - it would have had more integrity.
Statement #2: “25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people.”
My interpretation: Blizzard tries to sell these changes to medium-hardcore players (while reducing dev costs).
The pseudo-code for this change is to simply increment “gold_quantity_dropped” & “badge_quantity_dropped” where “raid_size = 25“. They didn’t invest much into the incentives for 25-player raiding in my opinion. Therefore this also has the appearance of a decision whose primary goal was to reduce development costs.
Statement #3: Running 25-player raids will be a bit more lucrative, as should be expected, but if for a week or two you need to do 10s because half the guild is away on vacation, you can do that and not suffer a dramatic loss to your ability to get the items you want.
My interpretation: Nonsense disguised as a product feature.
Blizzard spent significant time and effort to finally ensure that the end-game content in WoW was PUGable in WotLK. Now they are promising that if “half the guild is away on vacation” - which I hope you agree is an exception not the rule - that you can run a 10-player raid instead? How about the more likely scenario in which 5-7 people can’t make it…but over the course of the last 1-5 years the guild has enough Friends to fill out some key roles before having to go to the Dungeon Finder to complete the 25-player raid. More likely? To say the lockout change is to help you “not suffer a dramatic loss” comes across foolish in my opinion.
Statement #4: “For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid.”
My interpretation: Good idea.
Most folks get a certain satisfaction from completing a task. Most folks like a little variety in the instances. This simple change is a win-win, and if anything probably increases Blizzards development costs slightly as two 5-boss raids likely requires more content (artwork, lore, perhaps even an additional cut scene) than one 10-boss raid. Well done.
Oh…but before I forget…it also mitigates the impact of the lockouts by effectively doubling the number of lockouts each toon has. Still, a good idea nonetheless.
Statement #5: “We do like how gating bosses over time allows the community to focus on individual encounters instead of just racing to the end boss, so we're likely to keep that design moving forward.”
My interpretation: You don’t need to be an IT project manager to see this artificially extends the elapsed time required to complete newly developed content.
OK so the goal of this approach is to spread the same content out over a longer period of time, which contributes to ~1-3 additional months of revenue before a player might otherwise grow bored and quit the game. It makes sense in theory….but I wonder how much it really improves their bottom line…and how much it is offset by the departure of players who get disgusted or impatient with this obvious “dangling carrot” approach.
Statement #6: “We design our raids to be accessible to a broad spectrum of players, so we want groups to be able to make the decision about whether to attempt the normal or Heroic versions of raids pretty quickly.“
My interpretation: Um, there aren’t normal or Heroic versions of raids anymore Blizzard, right?
Nobody likes a nitpicker but…they mentioned at the beginning of their announcement that “Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids”. So are they just trying to dangle out to hardcore raiders that you can jump right into Heroic? Um, no, because they also said “Heroic mode may not be open from day one, but will become available after defeating normal mode perhaps as little as once or twice.”
I KNOW I’m nitpicking here, but when releasing a statement about a change this major and controversial having mistakes like this raises additional doubt that Blizzard is 100% confident/comfortable with this new approach.
Statement #7: “We realize that with any changes to progression pathways there are going to be questions. We're eagerly awaiting any that we may have left unanswered. To the comments!“
My interpretation: Blizzard IS going in this direction - they are NOT asking us.
When I first read those 3 sentences my mind thought “OK this is such an extreme change that they are putting it on the table and looking for feedback; heck, they put so much time and care into past products who knows how this will end up?!”.
But if you read it again it says they are eagerly awaiting us to tell them what their own statement forgot to mention. Hmmm. I guess the train left the station on this…
Summary
Reducing costs and maximizing profits ARE goals for EVERY business obviously.
However, reducing costs to maximize short-term profits at the expense of long-term profits is a significant risk.
I feel these specific changes to the game are the first to put profits over our needs. Do I think a $25 virtual pet is a blatant money grab by Blizzard? Yes I do. But it has absolutely NO IMPACT on the game. This is - again, in my own opinion - a step in the wrong direction for the WoW brand.
Also, I think that Blizzard has finally exposed a crack for other development companies to take advantage of, namely that their competitors can market their MMO as
Providing “multiple levels of loot” based on “increasing levels of difficulty“. Why bother for the same ‘ol drops even when you put in the extra effort for larger raids??
As containing content unique to the 10- and 25-player raid size. Raid instance A would be specifically designed to maximize enjoyment for a 10-player raid group, while raid B will be specifically designed to maximize the enjoyment of 25-player raid group. They can boast they don’t “recycle content” and provide “watered-down” 10/25 player versions. Many people think that Kara was one of the best raids in the game. It was designed specifically for 10-players. Coincidence?
BTW I’m a casual raider within a small guild so this doesn’t really negatively impact my play experience at all. It’s when I “put on my Project Manager hat” and theorized why this change was being done that I got nervous and posted my thoughts! :)
All that said if there is a significant decrease in expansion pack sales and/or player membership I have faith that Blizzard will know how to turn it around….
Thanks again for reading.
-Haan
Varla Apr 30th 2010 3:41PM
Ok, I've seen people say this will kill the 25Ms, kill the PUG community, etc.
Say I have one level capped character. This means in Cata, I can do 2 raids- Raid A and Raid B. I do them both at 10M-level, gear drops, etc. So, that's my Tuesday and Wednesday. Now what? I'm effectively locked out of doing raids for the rest of the week. I can't PUG, since I'm already locked to both ID's. If all I want to do is raid as my one toon, like several of my guildies do, raid with just one 80 and do nothing else, well my week is shot. Otherwise, I could do Raid A, Raid B, both 10M, and have time on Thursday to pick one in 25M. Or do Raid A 25M Tues, Raid B 25M Wed, and then have time to do one 10M Thursday and pick up a PUG for the other over the weekend.
Now I have 3 80's. This means I can do 6 ICC's every week. I have a lot of flexibility in what I can do. I can do a guild 25M, enjoy the comraderie, and then go off and do a 10M Heroic version with my xcore elite group later in the week. Or maybe I don't like a handfull of people in my 25M runs, I put up with them for the sake of the guild to get better loot. If 10M and 25M drop the same loot, why do we need to keep extra players when we can break down into 2 10M's for the same effect?
And on that note, I can't count the number of times I've had 22 or 23 people in raid, and we PUG-ed friends and others in to fill the last spots. If it's late in the week, and they've already done their 10M guild run, we won't be able to fill said spots, and if we break into 2 groups, then we alientate players. If you're going to make the two raid sizes have the same difficulty and same loot tables, then make the even group go into the larger group evenly. We have this issue every Thursday when 22 raiders are logged on- too few to finish the last tiers of ICC25, too many to break into 10's without telling people to piss off.
And in respect to alts, I love doing ICC25 on my main and then going into ICC10's later in the week as my alt. This way, if I find an end-of week 25M, I can go try and heal, and if a friend needs a reliable tank for his 10M group, I can help too. I like the versitility of being able to help as many people as possible within a week as I can. Content isn't stale unless you're playing with stale players. It's the quality and enjoyment you should be getting with your fellow players, in addition to phat epics, that keeps the game fun. And by limiting me to one of two groups of raiders per character per week, I'm going to lose out on the interaction with other players and friends.
tl;dr: You owe me 5 bucks.
Akatoomb May 1st 2010 3:42AM
Seems like wow is getting easier and easier as more and more people play. Who can blame blizz? Its an mmo after, so appeasing the masses is how they make their money. Too bad for the few elite players who had an edge all these years. Maintaining your status of eliteness will push you to maximize your skills and macros as the playing field for gear is leveled.
Rainbow May 1st 2010 9:53AM
Currently we raid 25 man and pretty much carry 2-3 dps through it all. They are nice people, punctual and reliable. They also do roughly half the dps you'd expect from the character.
With this change, the leet players are highly likely to form breakaway groups.
If two people are underperforming in a 25 man, that's 8% of your raid in the 'nice casual player but not very good' band. If two people in youtr ten-man are like that, it's 20%...
Maybe this up a good thing, maybe it's bad. However, it will probably break up a lot of 25 man groups. Having 'more gold' in 25 man is facile, since most of my friends have 30 to 60k gold as it is and are not motivated by gold at all in any sense.
Yet, I can see it makes sense to reward 10 player groups parallel to 25 ones. I guess we will have to wait and see.
Sweetumz May 1st 2010 10:58AM
This does sound interesteing but im sceptical at the same time. Right now even though I have to run alot of raids to keep up with the flow. In cataclysm this seems like it will slow that flow down. Right now i can get my badge gear and then hope in a VOA 10 and have a shot at an upgrade on say my legs even though they're only 251 they are better than my 232s. Unless the amount of raids and item variety is plentiful i think we will see the rate at which people gear up slowing way down....If your upgrade item doesnt drop this week well thats your only shot at an upgrade unless hopefully there is another equally as good drop in one of the other raids that can be run. If not well have fun being stuck in 232s for another week. And if your like me with terrible luck have fun being stuck in lower gear for an immense amount of time.
kingcomrade May 1st 2010 10:16PM
It won't kill 25 mans, but it wouldn't be a tragedy if it did. 25 mans are a pain and usually aren't fun unless you're on an incredible server or in a top tier guild. It's ~15 good players trying to drag ~10 bad, lazy players through an encounter. After every fight six people need to take 10 minute bio breaks, staggered so they don't all go at once. People have to leave after the first two bosses. They take a long time to organize, and you have to compete with more players for loot as it is now (1 item per 8.3 people instead of 1 item per 5). I've rarely enjoyed 25 mans in all my raiding time and I wouldn't cry if they become rare.
Don't make a mistake, if the loot is the same and 25 mans die, it's because people don't like 25 mans. Trying to force people through loot quality into doing a style of encounter they don't enjoy isn't something any of you deserve, honestly.
Akazu May 3rd 2010 5:58PM
I think this is where your knowing your class more then others will come into play. Skill will pretty much make the player.
Akazu May 3rd 2010 5:59PM
sorry i meant...."where you knowing"
Akurano May 3rd 2010 6:04PM
i'd only agree with this plan if they substitute the less amount of time not running those extra raids with other raids instead. Same amount of raids, technically, but more variety. If they plan to have the same type amount of raids then this is a bad idea. if it's confusing, its like this
Now: 3 seperate raids, technically about 4 types of that raid available, so 12 raids total per week, which is awesome
Later: 12 seperate raids, 1 type per each
Same amount of raiding, if there isn't same amount of raiding, i disagree. if there' smore, i'm overjoyed. if there's less, :(
Bexer May 29th 2010 11:39AM
I support most of the new changes, such as more diverse raids of 5-7 bosses each and equal loot quality but there are a few things that this system leaves to be desired. The thing I enjoyed about Wotlk was that if you were in a lousy group/PuG for a 25man that only downed 1 boss, you still had a chance in the 10m for that week. For people who aren't in a raiding guild (not me personally, but there are plenty), this hurts their raiding chances greatly because a failed pug in 10 or 25 means they are out for the whole week. This change lends itself only to guild play, and while guilds are more efficient and fun usually some people will never have the time or the commitment to join a guild and it isn't fair to them or anyone else that a failed group downing 1 boss constitutes their entire weekly raid schedule.
My suggestion for a solution that fits everyone? Blizzard should divide the raids up into sections with 2-3 bosses in each and the raid lockout applies separately for each section. This would be similar to the set up of the ICC heroics except it applies to the raids. Initially, you must unlock each of the 3 sections by completing the one before it, but then this can work as a good way to divide the night's work or a second chance if your group never finishes. If you're in a failed pug that only downs the first boss one week, but a 25m group is forming for the second-third section there is no reason you shouldn't be able to join them because those bosses have yet to be attempted for you that week.