Cataclysm raid progression refinements

Today Blizzard released some stunning new standards for raids in the upcoming Cataclysm expansion. Chief amongst these changes, which every WoW player should be aware of, is the combining of 10- and 25-man loot tables, 10- and 25-man raid lockouts, and the continuation of gated content.
No longer will 25-man raids provide better gear than 10-man raids (although they will drop more of the gear), and no longer will players be able to farm both the 10-man and 25-man version of a raid dungeon each week.
The following are the bullet points of this announcement:
No longer will 25-man raids provide better gear than 10-man raids (although they will drop more of the gear), and no longer will players be able to farm both the 10-man and 25-man version of a raid dungeon each week.
The following are the bullet points of this announcement:
- 10- and 25- man raids in Cataclysm will share the same lockout
- Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel
- 10- and 25- man bosses will be close in difficulty
- 10- and 25- man bosses will drop the exact same items
- 25-man bosses will drop a higher quantity of loot, but not quality
- For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid.
- Content will continue to be gated
- First Cataclysm raids will be tuned for players in dungeons blues and crafted items
The full statement after the break.
We're continuing to refine the raid progression paths in Cataclysm, and we'd like to share some of those changes with you today. Please enjoy!
The first of the refinements being made is that we're combining all raid sizes and difficulties into a single lockout. Unlike today, 10- and 25-player modes of a single raid will share the same lockout. You can defeat each raid boss once per week per character. In other words, if you wanted to do both a 10- and 25-person raid in a single week, you'd need to do so on two different characters. Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel. Obviously the raid lockout change doesn't apply in pure Icecrown terms though, as this change goes hand-in-hand with a few other changes to raid progression in Cataclysm.
We're designing and balancing raids so that the difficulty between 10- and 25-player versions of each difficulty will be as close as possible to each other as we can achieve. That closeness in difficulty also means that we'll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty. They'll have the same name and same stats; they are in fact the exact same items. Choosing Heroic mode will drop a scaled-up version of those items. Our hope is that players will be able to associate bosses with their loot tables and even associate specific artwork with specific item names to a far greater extent than today.
Dungeon Difficulty and Rewards
10- and 25-player (normal difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
10- and 25-player (Heroic difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop more powerful versions of the normal-difficulty items.
We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people. The raid designers are designing encounters with these changes in mind, and the class designers are making class changes to help make 10-person groups easier to build. Running 25-player raids will be a bit more lucrative, as should be expected, but if for a week or two you need to do 10s because half the guild is away on vacation, you can do that and not suffer a dramatic loss to your ability to get the items you want.
We recognize that very long raids can be a barrier for some players, but we also want to provide enough encounters for the experience to feel epic. For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid. All of these bosses would drop the same item level gear, but the dungeons themselves being different environments will provide some variety in location and visual style, as well as separate raid lockouts. Think of how you could raid Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep separately, but you might still want to hit both every week.
We do like how gating bosses over time allows the community to focus on individual encounters instead of just racing to the end boss, so we're likely to keep that design moving forward. We don't plan to impose attempt limitations again though, except maybe in cases of rare optional bosses (like Algalon). Heroic mode may not be open from day one, but will become available after defeating normal mode perhaps as little as once or twice.
In terms of tuning, we want groups to be able to jump into the first raids pretty quickly, but we also don't want them to overshadow the Heroic 5-player dungeons and more powerful quest rewards. We'll be designing the first few raid zones assuming that players have accumulated some blue gear from dungeons, crafted equipment, or quest rewards. In general, we want you and your guild members to participate in and enjoy the level up experience.
We design our raids to be accessible to a broad spectrum of players, so we want groups to be able to make the decision about whether to attempt the normal or Heroic versions of raids pretty quickly. The goal with all of these changes is to make it as much of a choice or effect of circumstance whether you raid as a group of 10 or as a group of 25 as possible. Whether you're a big guild or a small guild the choice won't be dependent on what items drop, but instead on what you enjoy the most.
We realize that with any changes to progression pathways there are going to be questions. We're eagerly awaiting any that we may have left unanswered. To the comments!
The first of the refinements being made is that we're combining all raid sizes and difficulties into a single lockout. Unlike today, 10- and 25-player modes of a single raid will share the same lockout. You can defeat each raid boss once per week per character. In other words, if you wanted to do both a 10- and 25-person raid in a single week, you'd need to do so on two different characters. Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel. Obviously the raid lockout change doesn't apply in pure Icecrown terms though, as this change goes hand-in-hand with a few other changes to raid progression in Cataclysm.
We're designing and balancing raids so that the difficulty between 10- and 25-player versions of each difficulty will be as close as possible to each other as we can achieve. That closeness in difficulty also means that we'll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty. They'll have the same name and same stats; they are in fact the exact same items. Choosing Heroic mode will drop a scaled-up version of those items. Our hope is that players will be able to associate bosses with their loot tables and even associate specific artwork with specific item names to a far greater extent than today.
Dungeon Difficulty and Rewards
10- and 25-player (normal difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
10- and 25-player (Heroic difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop more powerful versions of the normal-difficulty items.
We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people. The raid designers are designing encounters with these changes in mind, and the class designers are making class changes to help make 10-person groups easier to build. Running 25-player raids will be a bit more lucrative, as should be expected, but if for a week or two you need to do 10s because half the guild is away on vacation, you can do that and not suffer a dramatic loss to your ability to get the items you want.
We recognize that very long raids can be a barrier for some players, but we also want to provide enough encounters for the experience to feel epic. For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid. All of these bosses would drop the same item level gear, but the dungeons themselves being different environments will provide some variety in location and visual style, as well as separate raid lockouts. Think of how you could raid Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep separately, but you might still want to hit both every week.
We do like how gating bosses over time allows the community to focus on individual encounters instead of just racing to the end boss, so we're likely to keep that design moving forward. We don't plan to impose attempt limitations again though, except maybe in cases of rare optional bosses (like Algalon). Heroic mode may not be open from day one, but will become available after defeating normal mode perhaps as little as once or twice.
In terms of tuning, we want groups to be able to jump into the first raids pretty quickly, but we also don't want them to overshadow the Heroic 5-player dungeons and more powerful quest rewards. We'll be designing the first few raid zones assuming that players have accumulated some blue gear from dungeons, crafted equipment, or quest rewards. In general, we want you and your guild members to participate in and enjoy the level up experience.
We design our raids to be accessible to a broad spectrum of players, so we want groups to be able to make the decision about whether to attempt the normal or Heroic versions of raids pretty quickly. The goal with all of these changes is to make it as much of a choice or effect of circumstance whether you raid as a group of 10 or as a group of 25 as possible. Whether you're a big guild or a small guild the choice won't be dependent on what items drop, but instead on what you enjoy the most.
We realize that with any changes to progression pathways there are going to be questions. We're eagerly awaiting any that we may have left unanswered. To the comments!
Filed under: Cataclysm






Reader Comments (Page 3 of 23)
Babaloo Apr 26th 2010 11:41AM
10- and 25-player (normal difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
Win.
veil Apr 26th 2010 12:05PM
i like their intention to get rid of the disparity in item quality, but i'm on the fence on this to be honest. the trade off with having a lower ilvl gear was that i got to experience the content with a smaller group of friends and just have fun with it, while keeping 25man progression separate. with this i'll effectively be only able to have fun on the smaller scale with an alt...if that particular toon even stays with 10man (the downside of a priest alt...they're always needed somewhere). that in and of itself isn't a terrible option, but i just liked having the option to choose for my main and my alts.
Fatamorgana Apr 26th 2010 12:12PM
/agree
Full time job, night classes, and fiance means I only get to pug these days.
And unless it's Ony, OS, or VoA, it's hard to consistantly get into a 25m run.
So, for me, this is epic win!
jealouspirate Apr 26th 2010 12:45PM
@ Fatamorgana
I agree completely. Multiple shorter raids, 1 lockout, and Blizzard has mentioned before that they like the idea of moving toward weekly quests instead of dailies.
I like playing WoW just as much as anyone, but with a busy schedule the pressure to play every day and for long sessions is really a killer. I'd like to be able to step away for a few days and not feel like I'm missing out.
Hollow Leviathan Apr 26th 2010 3:14PM
My question is: do they drop the exact same achievements as each other? I don't want to have to lock myself out of 25s for a week and join a 10s, or the opposite, just so I can get [Make Quick Werk of Him 2.0! (10 man version)].
Manadar Apr 26th 2010 7:50PM
I don't really know what to think about this change. It's nice if we don't get to run the same instance two times a week, but only if Blizzard can provide more content then they did in WotLK. I have a hard time believing that, no matter what Blizzard says. WoW have lost a lot of good people to SC and Diablo, and with their new master Activision they too seem to be focused on delivering as little content as possible for a maximum profit, like selling a mount for the same price as a expansion.
I dunno, after all the bad changes in WotLK which Blizzard think is a success, I don't think we're gonna get a better game as time will pass. They clearly want something else with this game then what I'm after.
TNBuckeye Apr 26th 2010 11:41AM
This is the sound of twenty-five mans dying a horrible and painful death.
Wowcoholic Apr 26th 2010 11:54AM
not true. 10 mans today drop mainly 2 pieces of gear. i bet they'll keep that loot to person ratio. so in 25 mans, you'll see 5 pieces drop, and increases the chances of that one special piece of gear you've been searching for to show up more often. granted you'll still have to roll against more people. but 25 mans will have the opportunity for it to drop more than 10 mans. (you'll see it more often...)
Evlyxx Apr 26th 2010 11:54AM
That was my 1st thought too. Great time to be a tank OK for healers but as a DPS class the options are gonna be very, very limited and raid spots will be reserved for the very best.
Is now the time to grab a group of 12 friends and get that 10 man group set up? Could be.
Flynx Apr 26th 2010 5:09PM
I honestly think this is an accurate evaluation. IMO, the main motivation for doing 25-mans is the higher ilvl gear, achievements, and better mounts. Gold is already ridiculously easy to make and the fewer number of 10-man drops is not going to dissuade folks. OTOH, getting 25 people to showup 3+ nights/wk and focus on progression is a major PITA.
Following the path of least resistance is human nature, just as it is physical nature. Regardless of whether this is Blizzard's intention, this change WILL be the death of 25-mans.
TempName Apr 26th 2010 12:04PM
@Wowcoholic
It says higher quantity PER person. So if there's 2 pieces in 10man there will be more than 5 pieces in 25man.
Zoe Apr 26th 2010 12:11PM
You know..is that a bad thing then?
If just this kills 25 mans (which I seriously doubt) then that means 25 mans were terrible to begin with. If people only went there 'cause the loot was better and not 'cause they liked raiding with their group of friends then yeah, why keep them around?
Docp Apr 26th 2010 12:32PM
It doesn't mean that at all. It means 10mans are easier to organise than 25mans (which, unsurprisingly, it is).
The gear is a nice incentive, it provides people with the motivation to create 25mans and for people to show up. However I also enjoy the size of 25mans, the epic feel, the higher co-ordination required, the greater feeling of teamwork, etc.
However at the end of the day if I'm looking at a 10minute effort to make a good 10man pug or 45minute-hour slog to get 25 people together (based on my own pug forming experiences) for very little bonus reward...well I'm quite a lazy man.
(and before someone chimes in about joining a raiding guild I'd imagine a lot of guild leaders feel the same about getting sign ups and recruiting for their 25mans)
Basil Berntsen Apr 26th 2010 12:43PM
@Zoe I love 25 man raiding, and I love my 25 man, but I'm not willing to work harder for the same rewards. I'd say that my 25 man stands a fairly good chance of dying, and we fit your "group of friends who enjoy raiding together" characterization.
Zoe Apr 26th 2010 12:50PM
@Basil Berntsen
So you don't love it enough to keep it going, well then this is great for you, you get to raid for the same rewards isn't it? As far as the 'working harder' the announcement states difficulty will be the same between 10 and 25s
Like I said, anyone who doesn't WANT to raid 25 mans doesn't have to anymore.
Feezee Apr 26th 2010 2:42PM
@Basil Berntsen
"I love 25 man raiding, and I love my 25 man, but I'm not willing to work harder for the same rewards."
25 man normal and 10 man heroic drops are the same ilevel right now, but the 10 man heroic encounters are more difficult than the 25 man normal counterparts. This is not an equal system right now.
If the difficulty is equivalent you will not be "working harder" for the same rewards. 25 mans will be compensated with extra drops, gold, and badges for the organisational difficulties. YOU WILL BE WORKING THE SAME FOR THE SAME REWARDS.
"I'd say that my 25 man stands a fairly good chance of dying, and we fit your "group of friends who enjoy raiding together" characterization."
Blizzard is not going to stop you from running 25 man raids. You will be able to run them in cataclysm. If your 25 man raid dies it will not be because "Blizzarrd killed it", but because it actually wasn't as much fun for everybody as you thought it was.
Etreya Apr 26th 2010 2:43PM
The difficulty with 25 man isn't necessarily the difficulty of the raid itself, but rather getting together a solid, friendly group of 25 people to raid with, without having the claw for people to come raid.
"For 10 man guilds it's a great change. Get the same loot as a 25man raid without having to do a 25 man raid. For 25 man guilds who have 25+ excellent players it'll be a minor hit not being able to run 10 man content as well as the 25.
The guilds I see it having the biggest impact on is the 25 man guilds who either struggle to get 25 players for every raid, or those that have 10 or so great players in a 25 raid but slightly lower calibre members making up the other spots. I can see a fair number of both of those type of guilds switching to solely running 10 man content come Cataclysm as putting together a strong 10 man group is a lot easier than putting together a good 25 man group." (Quoting Floss, a fellow WoW player and good friend)
Shrike Apr 26th 2010 4:45PM
Why do all the "25-man raiding will die!" doomsayers keep ignoring the blue quote "25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people"?
Per Player. So if a 10-man boss drops 2 items, 100g and 2 emblems per person, the same boss in 25-man will drop at least 6 items, and more than 250 gold and at least 3 emblems per person.
kaspern83 Apr 26th 2010 11:41AM
Wow, Is blizz getting lazy or what? running out of ideas for gear names and artwork so they make everything the same other then the stats. Def do not like this change at all.
ahac Apr 26th 2010 11:41AM
This will be the end of 25 man raiding.