Cataclysm raid progression refinements

Today Blizzard released some stunning new standards for raids in the upcoming Cataclysm expansion. Chief amongst these changes, which every WoW player should be aware of, is the combining of 10- and 25-man loot tables, 10- and 25-man raid lockouts, and the continuation of gated content.
No longer will 25-man raids provide better gear than 10-man raids (although they will drop more of the gear), and no longer will players be able to farm both the 10-man and 25-man version of a raid dungeon each week.
The following are the bullet points of this announcement:
No longer will 25-man raids provide better gear than 10-man raids (although they will drop more of the gear), and no longer will players be able to farm both the 10-man and 25-man version of a raid dungeon each week.
The following are the bullet points of this announcement:
- 10- and 25- man raids in Cataclysm will share the same lockout
- Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel
- 10- and 25- man bosses will be close in difficulty
- 10- and 25- man bosses will drop the exact same items
- 25-man bosses will drop a higher quantity of loot, but not quality
- For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid.
- Content will continue to be gated
- First Cataclysm raids will be tuned for players in dungeons blues and crafted items
The full statement after the break.
Cataclysm Raid Progression RefinementsWe're continuing to refine the raid progression paths in Cataclysm, and we'd like to share some of those changes with you today. Please enjoy!
The first of the refinements being made is that we're combining all raid sizes and difficulties into a single lockout. Unlike today, 10- and 25-player modes of a single raid will share the same lockout. You can defeat each raid boss once per week per character. In other words, if you wanted to do both a 10- and 25-person raid in a single week, you'd need to do so on two different characters. Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel. Obviously the raid lockout change doesn't apply in pure Icecrown terms though, as this change goes hand-in-hand with a few other changes to raid progression in Cataclysm.
We're designing and balancing raids so that the difficulty between 10- and 25-player versions of each difficulty will be as close as possible to each other as we can achieve. That closeness in difficulty also means that we'll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty. They'll have the same name and same stats; they are in fact the exact same items. Choosing Heroic mode will drop a scaled-up version of those items. Our hope is that players will be able to associate bosses with their loot tables and even associate specific artwork with specific item names to a far greater extent than today.
Dungeon Difficulty and Rewards
10- and 25-player (normal difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
10- and 25-player (Heroic difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop more powerful versions of the normal-difficulty items.
We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people. The raid designers are designing encounters with these changes in mind, and the class designers are making class changes to help make 10-person groups easier to build. Running 25-player raids will be a bit more lucrative, as should be expected, but if for a week or two you need to do 10s because half the guild is away on vacation, you can do that and not suffer a dramatic loss to your ability to get the items you want.
We recognize that very long raids can be a barrier for some players, but we also want to provide enough encounters for the experience to feel epic. For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid. All of these bosses would drop the same item level gear, but the dungeons themselves being different environments will provide some variety in location and visual style, as well as separate raid lockouts. Think of how you could raid Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep separately, but you might still want to hit both every week.
We do like how gating bosses over time allows the community to focus on individual encounters instead of just racing to the end boss, so we're likely to keep that design moving forward. We don't plan to impose attempt limitations again though, except maybe in cases of rare optional bosses (like Algalon). Heroic mode may not be open from day one, but will become available after defeating normal mode perhaps as little as once or twice.
In terms of tuning, we want groups to be able to jump into the first raids pretty quickly, but we also don't want them to overshadow the Heroic 5-player dungeons and more powerful quest rewards. We'll be designing the first few raid zones assuming that players have accumulated some blue gear from dungeons, crafted equipment, or quest rewards. In general, we want you and your guild members to participate in and enjoy the level up experience.
We design our raids to be accessible to a broad spectrum of players, so we want groups to be able to make the decision about whether to attempt the normal or Heroic versions of raids pretty quickly. The goal with all of these changes is to make it as much of a choice or effect of circumstance whether you raid as a group of 10 or as a group of 25 as possible. Whether you're a big guild or a small guild the choice won't be dependent on what items drop, but instead on what you enjoy the most.
We realize that with any changes to progression pathways there are going to be questions. We're eagerly awaiting any that we may have left unanswered. To the comments!
The first of the refinements being made is that we're combining all raid sizes and difficulties into a single lockout. Unlike today, 10- and 25-player modes of a single raid will share the same lockout. You can defeat each raid boss once per week per character. In other words, if you wanted to do both a 10- and 25-person raid in a single week, you'd need to do so on two different characters. Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel. Obviously the raid lockout change doesn't apply in pure Icecrown terms though, as this change goes hand-in-hand with a few other changes to raid progression in Cataclysm.
We're designing and balancing raids so that the difficulty between 10- and 25-player versions of each difficulty will be as close as possible to each other as we can achieve. That closeness in difficulty also means that we'll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty. They'll have the same name and same stats; they are in fact the exact same items. Choosing Heroic mode will drop a scaled-up version of those items. Our hope is that players will be able to associate bosses with their loot tables and even associate specific artwork with specific item names to a far greater extent than today.
Dungeon Difficulty and Rewards
10- and 25-player (normal difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
10- and 25-player (Heroic difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop more powerful versions of the normal-difficulty items.
We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people. The raid designers are designing encounters with these changes in mind, and the class designers are making class changes to help make 10-person groups easier to build. Running 25-player raids will be a bit more lucrative, as should be expected, but if for a week or two you need to do 10s because half the guild is away on vacation, you can do that and not suffer a dramatic loss to your ability to get the items you want.
We recognize that very long raids can be a barrier for some players, but we also want to provide enough encounters for the experience to feel epic. For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid. All of these bosses would drop the same item level gear, but the dungeons themselves being different environments will provide some variety in location and visual style, as well as separate raid lockouts. Think of how you could raid Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep separately, but you might still want to hit both every week.
We do like how gating bosses over time allows the community to focus on individual encounters instead of just racing to the end boss, so we're likely to keep that design moving forward. We don't plan to impose attempt limitations again though, except maybe in cases of rare optional bosses (like Algalon). Heroic mode may not be open from day one, but will become available after defeating normal mode perhaps as little as once or twice.
In terms of tuning, we want groups to be able to jump into the first raids pretty quickly, but we also don't want them to overshadow the Heroic 5-player dungeons and more powerful quest rewards. We'll be designing the first few raid zones assuming that players have accumulated some blue gear from dungeons, crafted equipment, or quest rewards. In general, we want you and your guild members to participate in and enjoy the level up experience.
We design our raids to be accessible to a broad spectrum of players, so we want groups to be able to make the decision about whether to attempt the normal or Heroic versions of raids pretty quickly. The goal with all of these changes is to make it as much of a choice or effect of circumstance whether you raid as a group of 10 or as a group of 25 as possible. Whether you're a big guild or a small guild the choice won't be dependent on what items drop, but instead on what you enjoy the most.
We realize that with any changes to progression pathways there are going to be questions. We're eagerly awaiting any that we may have left unanswered. To the comments!
Filed under: Cataclysm






Reader Comments (Page 4 of 23)
ahac Apr 26th 2010 11:51AM
Actually now that I read everything... it's a good idea. :o
jrizutko Apr 26th 2010 11:59AM
If this is the end of 25 man raiding, that suggests that 10-man raiding is better game design.
i not vewy smat Apr 26th 2010 12:38PM
@jrizutko: No, as others have pointed out, it shows that 10's are easier to organize. Having done both, I know I prefer 25 mans, when we can get the people together. There is more going on, and getting a larger group of people to work together properly is more challenging.
I tend to doubt that our guild will try all that hard to organize 25s post cataclysm, simply because it will be simpler to just run 2-3 10's.
ahac Apr 26th 2010 12:44PM
@ i not vewy smat:
If 25 man raids drop more badges/emblems/whatevertheyllbecalled and more loot per player then I think 25 man raids will still be popular. But I guess it all depends on how much more effort it takes for how much more loot. :)
Dan Apr 26th 2010 5:01PM
This sucks!
arquenvaron Apr 26th 2010 11:42AM
1 single lockout?! i'm really not sure if i like this.
lemur Apr 26th 2010 12:12PM
That is what bothers me the most. As a casual player who doesn't have the time to join a real raiding guild I rely on doing a 10man ICC pug and a 25 ICC pug every week. I'd never get gear if I had to choose one.
Jeremy Apr 26th 2010 12:16PM
Looks like druids will have a harder time having a healing set, tanking set, boomkin set, kitty set all at the same time...
theflyingbuddha Apr 26th 2010 12:18PM
While I can understand why people might not like this -- not getting two changes per week at something -- I think this is a really good change, when combined with the loot changes. The current setup means that in order to feel like I'm getting the most from my week I must get into two ICCs and VoAs a week (and maybe a ToC still depending on my gear level), 10 and 25. It also means guilds farming badges need to do the same thing. Having one lockout, given the unified loot tables, simply means you don't have to feel like you need to raid 6 times a week to feel productive. You can get the most out of say, two or three instead. It makes finding raids less of a chore.
Eternauta Apr 26th 2010 12:35PM
I agree with Theflyingbuda
kuri Apr 26th 2010 12:37PM
It's important to look at these lockout restrictions from a meta-game perspective. Having many raids & countless lockouts means you'll have people raiding endlessly week to week (some on multiple alts), pittling away time at only one part of the game. This isn't a good thing to game developers- it forces them to focus on only one part of the game because that's where the players want to be (...which is due to the reward/effort ratio). It's a bad cycle that leads to burn-out, when there's in fact a lot of variety people aren't touching because the incentive isn't as great or accessible.
Remember there are tons of other areas to focus on in WoW that got overshadowed with today's raiding loot funnel. In TBC everyone spammed arenas for easy-to-obtain gear to supplement their PVE sets. That flipped with WotLK. Blizzard is refocusing their work on leveling and PVP in Cataclysm, so they're trying to shift players there as well. Currently if you raid (and have alts), you're probably not heavily involved in other areas of the game. With this new system, once you've exhausted your raid lockouts for the week you're forced to focus on other parts of the game or simply log off (but log back on during the next reset).
This falls in line with the development path Blizzard's trying to take and, coupled with the other changes, gives a lot of autonomy to players to determine how they want to raid. People QQing about these changes are skimming over the part that says "10-mans will be balanced to be just as difficult as 25-mans." If Blizzard properly balances the raids, you won't be walking into a 10-man and stomping it while 25-man teams slog through. You'll get your gear, have your challenge, and play their game in a more varied way. Best of all, you won't have to sacrifice your sanity or free time trying to organize huge raids to get the gear you want.
Kal Apr 26th 2010 12:44PM
Yeah, I'm kind of worried about the 1 lock out as well. My guild can only get a 10 man together for the newer/harder raids, so to keep myself available to them I pug 25 man runs.
Also brings up the question, if they share the same lockout, does that mean if you start it as one can you finish at the other? Just the bosses you downed as say a 10 man group stay downed when you change to a 25 man? But then there's the potential of tons of people attempting to run the same raid lock out...
Sigh, so confused.
Pyromelter Apr 26th 2010 2:53PM
Grumbly, you completely missed my point... as many people who are saying "25 mans will be fine."
The thing with the 25man raids is that the rewards MUST significantly outsize 10man rewards. Because the effort to organize and coordinate a 25man raid significantly outsizes 10mans. You are talking about your perspective... and for you, hey, if you are sticking with 25man and getting a little extra, good on you. But the vast majority of people do not think like that, and are not going to think like that. The only way to get them doing 25mans is to give outsized rewards. Like guaranteeing every drop on the loot table drops. Like giving 5x the amount of emblems. And yes, gold is easy... but lets say instead of getting 15g off a boss kill, you now get 300, or 500g (per person). Since the items are the same, Blizzard must come up with some outsized rewards for doing 25 mans. It may be silly to you, but for the 99% out there that are not hardcore raiders, what incentive would they have for doing 25mans instead of 10?
Lissanna is right again. Although I would say top 10% is too generous. I'm thinking the top .1% (at most) will stick to 25mans, unless outsized rewards are given. And frankly, if it's vanity type stuff (pets, mounts, shirt slot items), I don't think that will do it. It has to be gameplay related rewards.
Jeremy Apr 26th 2010 11:49AM
This pretty much kills at 25 man guilds...
PThunder Apr 26th 2010 12:02PM
I don't think so. If you can get 25-man raids together, that's what you'll do because it looks to be more lucrative in the long run.
Drexx Apr 26th 2010 12:04PM
The announcement of 10 man raids for Wrath killed 25 man raids....oh wait.
Bob Dewane Apr 26th 2010 12:08PM
How does this kill a 25 man raiding guild? The difficulty will be the same so why would people who enjoy 25 man raiding just up and quit and go to 10? They get more loot/badges/gold doing 25 man so there is still incentive to do it.
Personally I love the sound of all the QQ from 25 man raiders..."Oh noez!!! Now the n00bs can get the same phat lewtz that I can without having to be 1337 like me and mah crew!" Get over yourself, ffs! If people really do cancel their accounts over something like this then good riddance to them! Someone who worries THAT much about someone having the same piece of gear as them is only paying to play so that they can tell people who don't have their gear what scrubs they are and I don't want those people in the game anyway.
Bottom line. People WON'T quit. People WILL continue raiding. Blizz will get a subscription spike when Cata comes out, same as always.
Lissanna Apr 26th 2010 12:36PM
It only sucks for 25-man raiders because 10 & 25-mans are on the same lockout. The danger for 25-man raid groups ends up being that 25-mans require more work on the part of guild officers, and so there is very little reward for the extra risk that 25-man raiding OFFICERS are going to have to endure. If they left 25-man raid teams ALSO able to clear 10-mans (with ALL the other changes in place), then 25-mans have a MUCH better chance of surviving in Cata, because the reward will simply be that they can gear up faster (which is true right now). If it ends up being that 10-mans are easier for guild leaders to deal with (ie. easier to form a group, easier to recruit for, easier to work together, easier to find skilled players for, faster to clear), then I predict that all but the bleeding-edge raid groups will switch to 10-man only, just because it is easier on the officer team for putting groups together.
Pyromelter Apr 26th 2010 1:28PM
Lissanna is totally right. I think everyone downrating people becuase.. well I don't know why. Unless the rewards are significantly significantly more, like twice as many loot and emblems, and 10x the gold, it'll be hard for most 25mans to survive... and even then, 10mans are always easier to organize, so I have a hard time seeing how 25mans will be big in 4.0+
GrumblyStuff Apr 26th 2010 1:55PM
@Lissanna
Why haven't 10mans destroyed 25s as it is? I mean, after stomping through 25 and the crew splits to do 10s, that leaves 5 all on their own. Don't you think they want to run 10s too?
I can see them now, watching guildchat or listening to the runs in vent... "w00t! tanky boots! Ah, man, Jimmy ain't here. Ah well. shard it." All the while they're just picking flowers or mining or grinding honor.
As for Pyromelter, 2x loot and 10x gold? That's just silly. For one, there's 2.5x as many players. Five pieces of loot should drop to remain par for course. Six if you want a lil' sumthin' extra. And two, extra gold isn't nearly as progression breaking as loot but 10x is a bit much. Doubling or tripling would be rewarding and ample compensation.