Cataclysm raid progression refinements

Today Blizzard released some stunning new standards for raids in the upcoming Cataclysm expansion. Chief amongst these changes, which every WoW player should be aware of, is the combining of 10- and 25-man loot tables, 10- and 25-man raid lockouts, and the continuation of gated content.
No longer will 25-man raids provide better gear than 10-man raids (although they will drop more of the gear), and no longer will players be able to farm both the 10-man and 25-man version of a raid dungeon each week.
The following are the bullet points of this announcement:
No longer will 25-man raids provide better gear than 10-man raids (although they will drop more of the gear), and no longer will players be able to farm both the 10-man and 25-man version of a raid dungeon each week.
The following are the bullet points of this announcement:
- 10- and 25- man raids in Cataclysm will share the same lockout
- Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel
- 10- and 25- man bosses will be close in difficulty
- 10- and 25- man bosses will drop the exact same items
- 25-man bosses will drop a higher quantity of loot, but not quality
- For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid.
- Content will continue to be gated
- First Cataclysm raids will be tuned for players in dungeons blues and crafted items
The full statement after the break.
We're continuing to refine the raid progression paths in Cataclysm, and we'd like to share some of those changes with you today. Please enjoy!
The first of the refinements being made is that we're combining all raid sizes and difficulties into a single lockout. Unlike today, 10- and 25-player modes of a single raid will share the same lockout. You can defeat each raid boss once per week per character. In other words, if you wanted to do both a 10- and 25-person raid in a single week, you'd need to do so on two different characters. Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel. Obviously the raid lockout change doesn't apply in pure Icecrown terms though, as this change goes hand-in-hand with a few other changes to raid progression in Cataclysm.
We're designing and balancing raids so that the difficulty between 10- and 25-player versions of each difficulty will be as close as possible to each other as we can achieve. That closeness in difficulty also means that we'll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty. They'll have the same name and same stats; they are in fact the exact same items. Choosing Heroic mode will drop a scaled-up version of those items. Our hope is that players will be able to associate bosses with their loot tables and even associate specific artwork with specific item names to a far greater extent than today.
Dungeon Difficulty and Rewards
10- and 25-player (normal difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
10- and 25-player (Heroic difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop more powerful versions of the normal-difficulty items.
We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people. The raid designers are designing encounters with these changes in mind, and the class designers are making class changes to help make 10-person groups easier to build. Running 25-player raids will be a bit more lucrative, as should be expected, but if for a week or two you need to do 10s because half the guild is away on vacation, you can do that and not suffer a dramatic loss to your ability to get the items you want.
We recognize that very long raids can be a barrier for some players, but we also want to provide enough encounters for the experience to feel epic. For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid. All of these bosses would drop the same item level gear, but the dungeons themselves being different environments will provide some variety in location and visual style, as well as separate raid lockouts. Think of how you could raid Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep separately, but you might still want to hit both every week.
We do like how gating bosses over time allows the community to focus on individual encounters instead of just racing to the end boss, so we're likely to keep that design moving forward. We don't plan to impose attempt limitations again though, except maybe in cases of rare optional bosses (like Algalon). Heroic mode may not be open from day one, but will become available after defeating normal mode perhaps as little as once or twice.
In terms of tuning, we want groups to be able to jump into the first raids pretty quickly, but we also don't want them to overshadow the Heroic 5-player dungeons and more powerful quest rewards. We'll be designing the first few raid zones assuming that players have accumulated some blue gear from dungeons, crafted equipment, or quest rewards. In general, we want you and your guild members to participate in and enjoy the level up experience.
We design our raids to be accessible to a broad spectrum of players, so we want groups to be able to make the decision about whether to attempt the normal or Heroic versions of raids pretty quickly. The goal with all of these changes is to make it as much of a choice or effect of circumstance whether you raid as a group of 10 or as a group of 25 as possible. Whether you're a big guild or a small guild the choice won't be dependent on what items drop, but instead on what you enjoy the most.
We realize that with any changes to progression pathways there are going to be questions. We're eagerly awaiting any that we may have left unanswered. To the comments!
The first of the refinements being made is that we're combining all raid sizes and difficulties into a single lockout. Unlike today, 10- and 25-player modes of a single raid will share the same lockout. You can defeat each raid boss once per week per character. In other words, if you wanted to do both a 10- and 25-person raid in a single week, you'd need to do so on two different characters. Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel. Obviously the raid lockout change doesn't apply in pure Icecrown terms though, as this change goes hand-in-hand with a few other changes to raid progression in Cataclysm.
We're designing and balancing raids so that the difficulty between 10- and 25-player versions of each difficulty will be as close as possible to each other as we can achieve. That closeness in difficulty also means that we'll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty. They'll have the same name and same stats; they are in fact the exact same items. Choosing Heroic mode will drop a scaled-up version of those items. Our hope is that players will be able to associate bosses with their loot tables and even associate specific artwork with specific item names to a far greater extent than today.
Dungeon Difficulty and Rewards
10- and 25-player (normal difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
10- and 25-player (Heroic difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop more powerful versions of the normal-difficulty items.
We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people. The raid designers are designing encounters with these changes in mind, and the class designers are making class changes to help make 10-person groups easier to build. Running 25-player raids will be a bit more lucrative, as should be expected, but if for a week or two you need to do 10s because half the guild is away on vacation, you can do that and not suffer a dramatic loss to your ability to get the items you want.
We recognize that very long raids can be a barrier for some players, but we also want to provide enough encounters for the experience to feel epic. For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid. All of these bosses would drop the same item level gear, but the dungeons themselves being different environments will provide some variety in location and visual style, as well as separate raid lockouts. Think of how you could raid Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep separately, but you might still want to hit both every week.
We do like how gating bosses over time allows the community to focus on individual encounters instead of just racing to the end boss, so we're likely to keep that design moving forward. We don't plan to impose attempt limitations again though, except maybe in cases of rare optional bosses (like Algalon). Heroic mode may not be open from day one, but will become available after defeating normal mode perhaps as little as once or twice.
In terms of tuning, we want groups to be able to jump into the first raids pretty quickly, but we also don't want them to overshadow the Heroic 5-player dungeons and more powerful quest rewards. We'll be designing the first few raid zones assuming that players have accumulated some blue gear from dungeons, crafted equipment, or quest rewards. In general, we want you and your guild members to participate in and enjoy the level up experience.
We design our raids to be accessible to a broad spectrum of players, so we want groups to be able to make the decision about whether to attempt the normal or Heroic versions of raids pretty quickly. The goal with all of these changes is to make it as much of a choice or effect of circumstance whether you raid as a group of 10 or as a group of 25 as possible. Whether you're a big guild or a small guild the choice won't be dependent on what items drop, but instead on what you enjoy the most.
We realize that with any changes to progression pathways there are going to be questions. We're eagerly awaiting any that we may have left unanswered. To the comments!
Filed under: Cataclysm






Reader Comments (Page 5 of 23)
Lissanna Apr 26th 2010 2:05PM
25-mans are only sustainable now because of 2 reasons:
A) You can run both 10 & 25 with the same character (ie. you can have BOTH), and
B) 25's offer better rewards.
Right now, in Cata, both A & B are going away at the exact same time, and will make everything but the bleeding-edge (top 10% of current 25-man guilds) impossible to sustain without tremendous amounts of officer effort.
N-train Apr 26th 2010 4:56PM
"The announcement of 10 man raids for Wrath killed 25 man raids....oh wait."
Not only that, this change seems like a DIRECT RESPONSE to the player base, who took the new 10 man level and did crazy things like ask for legit hard-modes and create "strict" 10 man guilds. As I understood it, 10 mans were to be for casuals and alts and as a stepping stone to 25s (hence why they had different tiers of emblems in Naxx and Uld), but instead the playerbase turned it around and took it far more seriously than I think Blizzard had originally intended.
So for everyone concerned with this change (which I support and don't think will affect anyone who actually enjoys 25 mans for the experience) being the death of 25 mans and also complaining that Blizzard never really listens to anyone, I think you need to consider why they're making this change.
Arnav Apr 26th 2010 11:44AM
WHOA!!
No more 25 man GDKP "And" 10 man Guild runs? OMG!!!
lemur Apr 26th 2010 11:42AM
Dude. That is wack. Just plain wack.
Evandrial Apr 26th 2010 11:43AM
wiggidy wack? or just the regular type?
Unhunted Apr 26th 2010 11:55AM
no, just regular
Ed Apr 26th 2010 11:43AM
And here I was hoping they'd make raid lockouts LESS annoying and prohibitive.
kaspern83 Apr 26th 2010 11:53AM
Yeah seriously They will loose a lot of suscribers over this, they should concentrate on things like going in with a fail pug u get locked with one boss in and screwed for the rest of the week. Now U cant raid anything at all. Now at least u have a chance to go with a 10 or the 25 depending on what you got screwed out of earlier. What shey should do is u dont get locked out of the raid but locked out of a boss.. So If u went with a fail pug and it only managed to down 2 bosses u can go in with another pug kill these bosses again but you wont be eligible for any loot from them. But at least you have a chance of getting loot from later bosses. I think that change would make lots and lots of people pretty damn happy.
blackpony Apr 26th 2010 11:59AM
you could just not join fail pugs and get in to a raiding guild. just a thought
Ilmyrn Apr 26th 2010 3:08PM
People are downrating kaspern23 for no good reason. While this change won't negatively impact me personally (aside from gear level, I genuinely prefer ten man raiding, but have to raid 25 to finish my Shadowmourne and Val'Anyr), Blizzard would be better served, I think, by redoing the way being saved works. Instead of the current system where a character is locked to an instance of the raid, why can't their raid ID simply record what bosses/trash they've killed and prevent them from getting loot/gold/drops/badges from those bosses?
For example, the weekly is Marrowgar, so I join a ten man pug for it. we down Marrowgar, Deathwhisper, and Gunship, but fall apart on Deathbringer. Now my guild wants to run a ten man later that week and I join them. I'm not saved to ten man ICC< I'm saved to ten man Marrowgar, Deathwhisper, and Gunship. We go in and I can't get loot or rep or anything from the first three bosses (Aww, Whispering Fanged Skull dropped. Too bad I can't roll on that!) But we easily down Deathbringer and clear the Plagueworks, and I get all the gold and rep and loot that drops there.
That just seems like a much friendlier system to me.
Matt Spicer Apr 26th 2010 11:43AM
Wow, not to mention giving us people with no life less to do in game. FAIL!!!
Eamara Apr 26th 2010 11:48AM
That's probably the idea. Not having a life outside of the game isn't really healthy.
Arbolamante Apr 26th 2010 12:20PM
This is why I like this. No pressure to go to two raids each week to keep up with your raid group. Further, more opportunities to raid with your alts. This is a boon for people who a) want to raid, but maybe only a couple nights a week and/or b) want to raid with their alts, but don't have lots of time.
In other words, me.
Lepidus Apr 27th 2010 8:51AM
If you need Blizzard to step in and tell you to stop playing so much, that's your own fault.
Tim Apr 26th 2010 11:44AM
I think I like this as a member of a 10 man raiding guild. I was always upset that we were 10 great raiders but couldn't get 1337 loot because of recruiting issues. I hope this works out well. REALLY did not expect all this though.
warpstarmaster122 Apr 26th 2010 11:45AM
*buys boat for the incoming QQ*
Ginny Apr 26th 2010 12:09PM
Got room for another in that boat? The flood of tears is starting to wash me away.
Sithril Apr 26th 2010 1:45PM
Nothing short of the mighty Orgrimms Hammer will survive this!
Syhn Apr 26th 2010 11:48AM
As a raid leader of a Guild which is dedicated to 10 men content I have nearly cry of joy in the middle of my open space !
Finally some love to the 10 men content.
Nearly same difficulty ! Same gear ! Wooot !
Degoat Apr 26th 2010 11:46AM
Maybe it's my ignorance when it comes to raiding, but what would be the point of doing a 25-man raid then? Maybe just because your guild has more people in it.....