Patch 5.4 patch notes
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The latest patch 5.4 newsBreakfast Topic: Where's the epic
by Anne Stickney 
Apr 27th 2010 at 8:00AM
So we got a lot of big news yesterday: Badges are going the way of the dodo (and I for one will not miss them), and on top of that astonishing bit of news, the way we raid is about to change forever. Loot from 10- and 25-man raiding will be identical, the only difference being in the amount of loot that is doled out, or so the changes seem to indicate. For those that enjoy 10-man content this is well and good, for those that enjoy 25-man content ... well. It may get that much harder to recruit. But I'm not really going to talk about that.
What I am going to talk about is the screenshot pictured above. That's my priest, my first raiding character back in vanilla. She's taking a siesta while waiting for everyone to run back from yet another wipe on Ragnaros, the final boss in Molten Core. By everyone, I mean all 39 other people involved in the raid at the time; when I say this was vanilla I mean this shot was taken before BWL had even been hinted at. See, there's something fundamentally ... off with raiding in Wrath, and I can't really put my finger on it -- but I keep going back to this screenshot and remembering fondly the small army it took to finally make that bastard up and die.
What I am going to talk about is the screenshot pictured above. That's my priest, my first raiding character back in vanilla. She's taking a siesta while waiting for everyone to run back from yet another wipe on Ragnaros, the final boss in Molten Core. By everyone, I mean all 39 other people involved in the raid at the time; when I say this was vanilla I mean this shot was taken before BWL had even been hinted at. See, there's something fundamentally ... off with raiding in Wrath, and I can't really put my finger on it -- but I keep going back to this screenshot and remembering fondly the small army it took to finally make that bastard up and die.
40 people. A virtual army, and it suited the encounter -- the size of that room was breathtaking. The sight of Ragnaros emerging from that lava gave me goosebumps. When we finally killed him, there was this sense of accomplishment, that we'd achieved something utterly amazing. Nowadays, I can go in and 3-man him. It makes me wistful. But what I miss most, what seems to be missing from Wrath is that feeling. The epic.
Fighting the Lich King was all right but not once did I have that "Oh god oh god we are all going to die" sensation that made those old zones so fun. I miss that sensation, the goosebumps, the feeling that when a boss died it was this truly momentous event. I don't know where they lost it -- Burning Crusade had it, when Kil'jaeden emerged from the Sunwell the "Holy s-" feeling was definitely present. But in Wrath, it just fell ... flat, somehow. I keep thinking I'm the only one, but a few more people are piping up here and there, so I thought I'd ask you all over the morning coffee -- do you remember the epic? Do you feel the epic now? Or do you, like me, think that maybe it got lost somewhere and we ought to send out a search party for it? Let's see what people have to say -- I'll be over here, on my porch. In the rocker, reminiscing about the good 'ol days.
Filed under: Breakfast Topics
Reader Comments (Page 13 of 13)
lolikitty Apr 28th 2010 1:04AM
There definitely are people who raid 4-5 times a week and also enjoy questing, learning about lore and smelling roses, i can assure you of that.
lolikitty Apr 28th 2010 1:00AM
I really must be easily impressionable, because i get epic feelings quite often. It saddens me that people don't seem to take the Lich King very seriously, and while i still haven't killed him, i have to say even after more than 15 attempts, he still scares me, and being in the middle so close to him after ph2 really makes me uneasy, and i'm glad i'm not melee.
Seeing him pop left and right while questing only made me more anxious to confront him. Heck, i almost feel like hiding behind a big Tauren when he appears in Utgarde Pinnacle (dont laugh)
While 40 man raids certainly did feel epic, i was kinda feeling like a tiny pawn, while in 25 and even 10 man, there's a feeling that you're one of the "selected few", the cream of the crop of Azeroth or something.
Bex Apr 28th 2010 1:07AM
Okay, well, I've been playing since day 1. Had my share of raiding, still raid to this day, and would have to say I still get that "epic" feeling in newer raids. When i first encountered marrowgar i was freeking out when he came spinning after me with that humongous axe. Then, when i first downed festergut knowing that the heals on that fight were just that insane. Again when we had to heal a boss instead of killing it. Heck, the LK himself was an epic fight. Getting sucked into frostmourne, being carried by valkyr to be dropped off the edge, i mean come on....thats pretty epic to me.
I've also had my epic moments in the past. The first time i played a tauren, i finished the lvl 1-5 area and stepped past the gate into mulgore and was just struck with awe. Had that feeling like the whole world was at my fingertips. Then there was the first time i stepped into MC. Just seeing those two giants guarding the way was pretty epic. But we had that instilled into us when we got our butts handed to us by the elite giants roaming around the various zones, so knowing it took 40 ppl to kill the ones in MC was pretty epic feeling. There were reasons for it feeling epic. You NEVER killed anything that big without the help of other ppl. But once you have killed something that big by yourself it feels less like you've did the impossible.
So essentially those who don't get that feeling much anymore need to take a step back, stop worrying about the loot. Look at whats around you, turn on your music, and take in all the epicness around you in northrend. Play another character through the northrend quest chains and pay attention to the lore a little bit. It will make ICC feel that much more epic imho.
Donhorn Apr 28th 2010 1:44AM
Kinda. the 40 man version in my idea would be tuned up to the scale that it was back in the day, 40 people taking days or even weeks to run one instance. So it would take allot more work and dedication than the 25 man hard mode that currently only takes what, an hour or more?
But it also seems that Blizz is trying to make high tier gear less exclusive, that's why I went with the more gear route that matches what they already announced. But to make it a little more special the exclusive title for each 40 man instance. That way we get the current system that works well for casual players, while giving the old WoW vets that challenge and mass scale like before that they have been pining for.
Donhorn Apr 28th 2010 1:49AM
That reply didn't work so well... it was supposed to be a reply to the person who replied to what I said. Delete this post please? I should probably just say the report button. *goes to post in right place*
Pazvanty Apr 28th 2010 4:49AM
Well i started playing the game right before wrath came out, i dinged 70 a few days before wrath so i didnt get to raid the old raids.
Let's face it, Wrath had it's epic moments... At least for noobs, such as myself, it had epic moments.
My first raid was Naxx. Back in those days i was part of a small guild, we were all rl friends and we all kinda sucked a lot, but we did enjoy it. I will never forget my first try at Kel'thuzad in 10m. OMG... i had watched the videos of course, i knew the tactics but that did not prepare me at all. Seeing all those adds closing in on you was just like "oh yeah... we're so going to die". For me that was probably the highlight of this expansion. It really gave me the feeling that death was creeping up on me and soon i will be nothing more than a mindless undead serving you know who.
Again... back then, i was part of a guild that actually sucked. And i honestly think it was the sucking that made it that epic. We only raided 1-2 nights per week and so even wiping 4 hours a week at some boos wasnt really something you'd get tired of.
After that, i took a break and when everyone had UD on farm i came back, joined a guild that was kinda hardcode, raiding 5 days a week. Wow became a job and so i can't really say UD was pretty epic for me, because i was feeling a robot while doing it. I did however do a few tries with my sucky friends... Naturally we didn't get far... but a few moments come to mind: when Ignis took me in his belly the first time i was like "holy shfrach!" i didnt expect that.
As far as Yoggy goes, i did like him but purely for the voice and cosmetics, the fight in its own didnt feel epic to me at all. Again, probably because i was burned out, not because of the game itself.
Then came TOC. Now let's be honest.... I can't say a lot about the raid itself... Yes, the champions is SUUUUCH a fun fight, it may not be epic, but seeing a bunch of guy running around like headless chicken is always fun for me. And again, the fall into Anub's lair was cool the first few times. Every time they did a surprise fall in this expansion (and yes, they did kinda overdo it - OK, EOE, IC quest, TOC) i did get that feeling in my stomach that I was actually falling. Other than that, i can't say i loved anything in particular about that raid. However, what i did love about 3.2 was TOC5... I will probably never forget the feeling i got when i first went there. I will admit it, i had no clue as to what's going to happen and neither did my guildies. We went in guns blazing, killed the dark knight and for a briefest second got the feeling of "well... that sucked!" only to have him yell "my flesh was only getting in the way" and kill us all. The excitement and dorky smile that put on my face is something that words can't express... We resurrected and went again at it, this time ready for his resurrection. When he died the second time, my heart was pounding (though not a hard fight, an exciting one) and this time we were like "well that was fun!" only to have him yell again "i have no need for bones to defeat you" and i was like "won't you freaking die already?!?!" and again we died again. The awesomeness of that moment is something that lights up my face even as i write this comment (truth be told i'm at work right now and my colleagues are wondering why is it that i look so dorky right now). Anyway, we went at it once again and i have to admit that we were all optimistically pessimistic about him getting up a fourth time. conclusion: it rocked!
And then came ICC... let's face it, the trailer and the cinematic rule. I would often go and watch the movie while in dala trying to find some work or something, and i always get the chills when Arthas' father vanishes (that sound is epic). Now while you would say that's not part of the raid... well, it actually IS. As far as i know, Ragnaros didn't really do anything for you once he died, except drop loot. These guys put on a show.. It's epic.
As for the other bosses.. while they may not be so excruciatingly hard as Ragnaros was they are new and fresh. The first wing is pretty straight forward, yet they all have this unique touch. Marrowgar not only looks cool but also starts running all over the place causing you to run at times too.. which again produces the panic that i enjoy (not the "im gonna die" panic but the "oh where the hec do i run? boss hitting me in the face, fire in my back, bone spikes at the side... AAAAAA"), then Lady Her came with the cool thing of having to dps her shield down... For the first time (i think) the number of adds you got was entirely up to you.. or at least how fast you got that shield down... it was a cool thing for me.. not epic, but cool. Then the gunship.. while a joke with respect to the difficulty, a cool fight none the less. I play horde, and hearing the dwarf saying "move your jellopy or we'll blow it out of the sky" always put a smile on my face. Saurfang... boring intro... cool adds. Again, not epic, but fun.
And then, my favorite wing.. the plague quarter. I have no idea who came up with the idea for the voices of Fester and Rot, but that guy(or girl) is right up in my hall of fame. If i hadn't made it clear up till now, i suck and as such wiped a lot. But i've never enjoyed wiping on a boss more than i did at Fester.. Oh that voice and speech manner is just to great to not wipe a few times (unfortunately nowadays we 1shot him). For the the first time, i even found myself feeling sorry for the guy as se says "daa...daaddy". It's both cool, fun, and for me sad a bit at the end. Oh and speaking of fester, those blizz guys really have a thing for poop and farts :). Anyway.. Rotface's voice i started out as hating.. a LOT, just like XTs in ulduar. But again... when he dies, he becomes kinda cute when he says "bad news daddy". I dont find myself, feeling sorry i killed him but a sort of "he wasn't that bad after all". The professor is not all that cool... but for me and my guild it used to pose a real challenge (especially before the 10% buff). We always killed him just in the nick of time, when all the room was full of slime. And that.. for me is epic.
Moving on to the next wing... Blood princes.. oh you know i enjoyed seeing everyone run around in that room. What i did like the most about that fight was the fact that, being a hunter, i'm charge of the bombs. And boy does that rock. It's a whole new thing.. not just mindlessly dpsing the boss but checking out 2 (or 4) bombs all the time, making sure they dont touch the ground... more often than naught one appearing all the way in hecksville across the room giving you no time to reach it before it hits the ground and then sweat starts pouring down your forehead, only to be saved at the last moment by a willing companion saying. I only hate that we wipe if we wipe at 10-20% at that boss. Why? because i dont get enough time to play with my balls. That came out wrong...
As for blood queen. It's cool that you get bitten.. very cool actually. Even more so, that you have to bite someone else. Not so much when you fail to find him and wipe get transformed. Overall not an epic fight, but fun, especially when you see somebody with mark of the darkfallen running away from the center (thinking he has shadows on him) and not towards it.
Dreamwalker.... well that's cool in the sense that for once we dont have to kill anything and just save something... she does get on my nerves when she says "heroes, i have opened a portal into the dream, your salvation lies within" for the fifth time.. I mean.. the rhyme wasn't all that great the first time, but the fifth.. She does make up for it with her other lines.
As for Sindra.. well this is where we're stuck right now.. I personally never saw her dead so yeah. Right now i've wiped on her more than i would ever want so if that's your definition of epic.. it's pretty darn epic, but other than that.. i don't find anything epic about her.
In conclusion, i would say that Wrath doesn't lack epicness nor does it lack awesomeness. It's just a different kind. When 80% of your clients are noobs you're going to make your product feel awesome for them, not for the 5% that really rock or the 15% that are somewhat good.
Coolness and epicness are everywhere you look in the game, you just need to see it.
Majou Apr 28th 2010 4:57AM
Well frankly I find the Gunship battle in ICC is truly epic. It´s also the easiest fight in ICC, but still. The whole of Ulduar is pretty epic, its size anyway.
Also as 5-man come the HoR LK retreat is probably the most epic 5man moment in the entire game. Complemented with epic music and Lady Sylvanas putting down mountains of ice with her bow on the Horde side. The only thing that comes close for me is MT
Sjofn Apr 28th 2010 5:28AM
They basically need to find a happy medium between TBC's "Illidan who?" and WotLK's "Jesus Christ, Arthas, get a hobby and stop stalking me." I like having quests and such leading me to a raid and telling me why I should give a crap, but I do not like having Arthas in my face all the time being completely ineffectual but no seriously he's bad ass just you wait!
Some of this is rose-colored nostalgia glasses, though. Ragnaros felt epic to you partly because he and the game were new. WotLK had some definite epic moments for me (Ulduar in particular had some great ones, imo), but WotLK is also the first expansion I could, in my small 10-man oriented guild, do an entire raid progression instead of a) nothing (like in vanilla) or b) Karazhan (in TBC). So I still get that sense of "oh shit, awesome," because this isn't my bajillionth raid.
Also, if you want that "oh god oh god oh god I am going to DIE" feeling, roll a tank. :P
Darkissac May 1st 2010 4:31AM
I know the feeling brother..... Did Putricide today, If I got below half way I started getting that feeling cause my healer was exacerbating the problem yelling over vent "DONT DIE! DONT DIE! DONT DIE!" Those are never comforting words to hear from your healer....
Toranja Apr 28th 2010 9:00AM
I think it used to be "OMG WE'RE GONNA DIE", and now it's just "oh, snap, there goes another wipe"... the feeling changed because wipes are not so time consuming as they used to be... and people don't feel so bad about wiping, because now they understand that wiping is a part of the learning process, and if you're not an amazing player, you'll take some wipes :)
MasterAsh Apr 28th 2010 2:35PM
The Escapist posted an article this week which relates to this: You can never "unplay" a game. There's NOTHING Blizzard could do, not even roll back the servers and clients to 1.0, which will EVER recreate that feeling you had downing Rag for the first time.
Dreadheart May 3rd 2010 8:28PM
I just want to say that I 100% agree with you Anne, both in this thread and in your recent comments as part of the wow.com article on the disparity over the raid lock-out changes proposed for cataclysm.
I have noticed throughout all of this expansion that the feeling of imminent doom, of real danger in both levelling and raiding, has rarely been a part of my wrath experience. This certainly affects the creation of that "epic" feeling. In my opinion the lack of this feeling is what is behind people "feeling" as though the game is easier this expansion... the game probably isn't actually any easier, it has just "felt" easier because the surprise and awesomeness, the big unknown, has been lacking compared to vanilla and BC. Perhaps this has been a result of making everything highly accessible - if so, the question has to be asked, is it worth it? I'm sure players of all levels (casual and hardcore, for lack of a better term?) enjoy the feeling of knowing that there's more in the game to find and experience. Knowing everything that's going to happen, and experiencing it all readily, doesn't leave much to look forward to.
I also think that raid design, equally as much as fight mechanics, adds to the epic feel of the dungeons we enter. Raids in wrath (with Ulduar as an exception) haven't been as... interesting... as many previous raid designs.
I would love to see the "epic" return to the game in cataclysm.
Darkissac May 1st 2010 4:28AM
I actually did get a sense of pure epicness thursday night during my guild's ICC-25 continuation. We downed festergut litterally at the last second, BigWigs was telling me enrage at the exact second he fell down, and holy shit, you woulda thought we downed LK on a one-shot vent got so loud with us cheering..... Following that we get to Rotface..... Now we had all seen rotface on 10-man, but it never worked out well.... we got there on 25 and here we are looking at him, we wiped like 3 times due to premature cleansing, well that 4th time, we get in there, stuff starts going south, and I mean like alabama south..... then all the sudden, BOOM, theres a dead abomination at our feet, yet again, vent got to ear-drum popping levels, this turned out to be a guild first....