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4-28-2010 @ 10:07PM
I for one like the change, the most fun ive ever had in a raid was Kara in BC and Kara was 10 man only.
4-28-2010 @ 10:20PM
Probably because you never got farther then that.This is the worst decision Blizzard has ever made for the game. Not allowing people to do both 10/25 versions of encounters cuts what I have the ability to do during the week in half for one thing. Most all the other issues have been said. No need to beat a dead horse (although I probably would beat it for a while if I saw one) but many of my friends and guild mates are seriously considering this the end of our WoW career because of these changes.
4-28-2010 @ 10:30PM
At Dia,Every change Blizzard introduces makes someone and their friends leave WoW. Yet their subscription base is steady. I do find it odd that they are combining lockouts. I think the loot should be the same because if you're a 10 man guild and only run 10 man raids then the fights are usually just as difficult if not more difficult because one person dieing may mean a wipe. Lock out seems strange but I fully support the gear changes.
4-28-2010 @ 11:36PM
im on the fence, but im leaning towards being for the the change. The effect of getting loads of 25man gear to run the 10man was a little cheesy, but I also love big 25man groups. But, the ppl who love them, can still run them, and say they did it, if they dont have the want because of rewards then they'll do something else. But still I like 25man raids nonetheless. Just not the wierdo gear stuff this expansion...BUT.. the thing we ALL have to remember and something I'm surprised to not see in these posts (maybe towards the end someone might have mentioned or meant to mean this) was that to take these new changes and think about the content and the raid scene at this moment doesnt work. Blizz has said before, don't imagine current changes coming in the current timeframe. If we take new raid changes and apply them to wrath, they are probably horrible. But cata? We don't know everything yet, these changes could be AMAZING and PERFECT for what they do with raiding this go around. Hell maybe we'll have so many raids that guilds will 25man some and only 10 man others. I dunno, its just that these changes wouldn't work for wrath, but will probably work for cataclysm and we just have to wait and see what happens.
4-28-2010 @ 11:48PM
They made the lockout the same for the same reasons we have a lockout now, so you don't get multiple chances at the same loot more than once a week. If 10 and 25 didn't share a lockout, and assuming 25 actually drops MORE epics (and not just proportionally more), you would have about 3 chances at getting BIS loot where you only have one in the current state of WoW.
4-28-2010 @ 11:50PM
"It seems like this change will separate those who actually like 25-mans from those who are only doing it for the gear."Can resume the situation pretty accurately.All around it would seem people who love 25 man format are not liking the new change and people that run with smaller 10man guilds are welcoming it.I'm personally goin 50/50 about this, I never could bring myself to stick around in bigger guilds for the simple fact that people often come and go and there's always some guy you don't know(people who will freak out at the first sight of a wipe or worse), whereas 10s are usually much more intimate/forgiving.25s sure feel right from alroe stand of view, but I don't find them confortable, let alone 40s. On the other hand I can easilly understand how much hardwork it is to get 25 people together on a regular basis, filling spots ect and feel like these should get more in return, but thats already what we got with the current system.It all comes back to Daniel's statement, those who really love 25s or already have 24 very loyal friends will stick to it, whereas those who were only doing it because htey "had to" will break up into smaller more private groups.The antisocial/casual part of me is rejoycing, while the harcore/minmaxing player is cursing at blizz.
4-29-2010 @ 12:19AM
@ Dia: if you are running out of stuff to do, and that is a huge concern, roll an alt and keep it raid geared. Geared tanks and DPS? Moar fun! Need even moar fun? (because moar) add a healer!I've got three alts who can run ICC in any given week (not that I'd try to hit it on all of them) but trying to keep up right now means you only really get one toon that can be anywhere as good as your main with a reasonable time commitment. I'm excited about that evening out a bit.
4-29-2010 @ 12:30AM
I also like the change, but I'm not entirely sure why.
4-29-2010 @ 1:04AM
I am indifferent. I'm no hard core raider (only got as far as the first two parts of ICC 5 man I think) so I will probably benefit rather than be hurt by this. Seems like the more hardcore one is, the more they will dislike it.That's their business of course. Everyone has reasons for playing WoW, and if the game no longer fits that reason, it's time to quit.Before judging a hardcore raider, I'd have to walk a mile in his shoes... I'll be a mile away and his shoes will have a higher ilevel than mine ;-)
4-29-2010 @ 1:09AM
A lot of people complained about how expensive tier 10 was. It was balanced around having a weekly, 7 dailies, a 10 man and a 25 to get. It had to be or else they risked those top guild blowing through content in no time.So the answer to that is to...a) limit it to 1 raid, thereby getting rid of a lot of badges and gear.b) limit the number of badges per week.Instead of picking B, which is sensible, they took C(both). It is overkill.Just reducing the amount of points like the new system is going to do would be enough.I imagine if doing both a 10 and 25 man raid would result in you getting no badges half way through one of them, the incentive would drop.
4-29-2010 @ 1:10AM
>All around it would seem people who love 25 man format are not liking the new change and people that run with smaller 10man guilds are welcoming it.<That would seem likely. 10 man guilds are hardly impacted. 25 man guilds are however put in a place where they lose a lot for...no perceivable gain.What else would you expect to happen?
4-29-2010 @ 2:04AM
@ Diatenshi - See you fall into the classic mistake of open debate. You start off with a childish insult and assume because someone prefer's 10 man they are casual or a scrub.The reality is that alot of 25 man's have a core group, those are the dedicated raider's, those are the ones who put in the effort, organise the group. There are usually 5-6 player's who put in a half assed effort (now I'm certainly not talking about top end guild's here), they dont gem properly, they dont buff properly and are more concerned with their phat loot's rather than working as a cohesive unit. In 10 man's you can't afford those people, there is less room for error, especially in 10 man guild's who aren't simply out-gearing the events in their 25 man gear... those people are the scrubsNow if you feel this is the end of your wow playtime (I'm sorry I refuse to call playing a video game a career) then thats your choice ... I seem to remember alot of the same talk when 40 man raid's were excluded in Burning Crusade. I think you are going to miss out on an excellent expansion.FYI I play a resto druid, who at first was not happy with the fact that I was losing my ToL (in fact I'm still not) but I realised I've been playing the same game now for many year's with little or no diversion. Clearly Blizzard has created a game that appeals to me, otherwise I would have simply gotten bored. I'll have faith that they will continue to bring the "wow factor" as it where :)
4-29-2010 @ 1:27AM
I like this change. Sure, 25-mans were awesome, but I can see why Blizzard is doing this. They want to open raiding to more people, and orchestrating a 10-man is significantly easier than a 25 man raid. I myself prefer 10-mans. There is less chance for failure, and more chance for loot. 25-mans do have a sense of bringing an army, but 10-mans are an elite squad. This change will change raids, though. 25 mans will be left to the 'leet and the larger guilds, and the closer cooperation that is used in 10 mans will be stressed. The loot changes are welcome; right now, 25-mans have less but more superior loot, and 10-mans have weaker plentiful loot. With Cat', it seems the loot quantities of 25-mans will be transcripted to 10-mans. Also, I can't fathom what this is going to do to guilds. 25-man raiding is tough to control, but multiple 10 mans is worse.
4-29-2010 @ 1:35AM
Phil - what does this have to do with the Catalclysm raiding changes? You are already able to run every raid in 10-man.
4-29-2010 @ 1:56AM
I've been playing since the game released, I've raided MC/BWL/ZG/AQ40 Kara/SSC/BT/ZA. In wrath however, I've only really done Naxx 10 because I my wife and I had a little girl. ;)But I agree with phil because karazhan and zul'aman are easily the most fun I've had raiding in the old content, and I never really had the motivation to get into Naxx 25 either, and this change brings my prefered raiding style onpar with 25mans.I don't see why people who do 25 mans are complaining though, especially not if they're going to get 5 pieces of loot. But it seems to me a lot of the complaints are coming from people who don't really, like, 25 mans. People who're doing it solely for the loot and would probably do 5mans or even solo content if that kind of playstyle awarded the best loot.Heh.Well I enjoy 10 mans, it's the threshold where things are fun and cozy and not full of long waits where you make sure everyone is ready or discuss who gets the loot.
4-29-2010 @ 2:55AM
I wish the people who always threaten to quit actually would. On another note, I'm a bit tired of hearing how much more difficult 25 man raids are. In my experience, about 5-10 of the people are carried and there are 10-15 people actually doing the raiding. In the days of 40 mans, you had like 20 people carried through. I guess the people longing for those epic days of 40 mans miss the feel of epic babysitting. I think the ones that have been carried in this way are the ones most worried about this change. In 10 man raids, there really isn't much room for error.
4-29-2010 @ 3:32AM
I think this is a solid design philosophy on Blizzards part that will open the door for the new (LFR) "Looking for Raid" option that I have a feeling will be introduced in Cataclysm. This could have a nice random option so that people wouldn't just skip out on older raids as is the case with Nax, Uldaur, Ony...etc. I think it is a shame that these raids are now practically unused due to being a lower tier of gear in an expansion that isn't finished, but for all intents and purposes the only time the content is visited is if it happens to be the weekly raid. I think that this is the crux of the problem and Blizzard is trying to figure out a way to keep content relevant during late cycles of an expansion - hence only being able to kill the same boss once a week. I would be more than happy to run Malygos again if the gear that dropped was in the current tier especially since 90% of the guilds have not completed this Raid. This would be a solution to that problem and I would not be surprised if this ace was tucked inside a certain crab’s sleeve.Blizzards hand has not been shown yet so don't assume that this will be the end of the world because I am sure that they plan on catering to all segments of the player base. Plus they will be coming up with guild rewards which in my opinion is a very exciting concept.
4-29-2010 @ 7:05AM
While I like raiding in a 25 group, I don't like the difficulty of assembling 25 raiders. It's very important to understand that they are two very different things. Once I have 25 people together and raiding it's awesome.In WotLK, during Hardmode ToC, my 3 year old guild broke up. Why did it break up? It wasn't because we weren't having fun; everyone in our guild loved 25 mans. We didn't break up because we preferred 10 mans, or because of drama.We broke up because a few people moved on due to changes in their life; not an unusual thing. But unlike in Burning Crusade, now we were unable to refill their spots in the raid. After several months of pugging 3-5 people to fill our raid spots, it just sorta crushed us. We lost our will to keep raiding, because now we had to spend an hour or two before every raid trying to pug people, often having the pugged people leave after a single wipe. When you pug a fair portion of your raid, it's so hard to get keep bosses on farm.If my guild hadn't broke up, and everyone in my guild who loves 25 mans continues to raid 25s, how would we recruit? Right now, I guess about 80% of raiders are in 25 mans? Forming a 25 guild, completing recruitment is a nightmare right now. It's not too bad in 10 mans, cause you only need 10 people. But what happens when 25 raiders drops to let's say 20% of raiders in Cataclysm?How could we possibly hope to form whole raid groups?This is why I'm scared of the changes.
4-29-2010 @ 10:14AM
Kara was great, it was my first raid, and i fell in love with it; it had a great lore attached, there were ton of bosses, great loot (well purple loot); the mood was great. It was just a fantastic raid. In contrast, Wraith raids feel misplaced (Naxx), odd (ulduar) or just pretty boring (iCC/TOC). Wraith raids are all fine and good, but Kara was really the best imo, second best being BT. Very epic, that place.
4-29-2010 @ 11:16AM
as far as incentives for 25man raiding go, i think the new guild achievement/talent trees/(heirloom gear?) will benefit 25man raiding over 10man. More details are required for this but i think they will be good enough to reward 25s sufficiently. i think the major disparity that blizzard is trying to resolve is the ilvl differences due to just how much of an incentive they are. i know plenty of ppl that have left the 10man atomosphere that they enjoyed just to do 25mans for the gear.there has been alot of discussions about 'the epicness' of the encounter and that is some of the motivation of doing 25mans. Fine, whatever works for you, and you can group with 24 other people that enjoy raiding with those large groups too. You should be rejoicing because you wont have sour ppl among u that are only there for the ilvls.overall, there should be several ppl rejoicing for the change of 10s and 25s dropping the same loot. 25man raiders that enjoy the atomosphere, 10man raiders that enjoy that atomosphere, and ppl whose computers completely fail and are unable to do 25s at >2 fps that are screwed outta phat lewts because of it (me xD).Sharing lockouts is a double edged sword. My guess is they are intending to siginificantly lower the amount of pugging. Again, this plays into the guild-related rewards. Still, more details are required, but sharing lockouts should be enough forcing to encourage raiding with your own guild. Sadly, this does cut out on how much u can do on one character per week, but hopefully proffesions/path of titans/pvp will be sufficient to spend some free time on wow and still enjoy a life away from the computer go go death of 25man guilds that barely can stand the ppl they raid with but still stay for those 13 ilvls ;P
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