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The latest patch 5.4 newsBreakfast Topic: Where's the epic, part two
by Anne Stickney 
Apr 30th 2010 at 8:00AM
Moving on, Hyjal felt odd at first because I was used to that 40man model. It faded because the dungeons of Burning Crusade were designed with 25 players in mind. Hyjal, Black Temple, Serpentshrine Cavern, all of it, designed with the intent of 25 players being present in that zone, so they felt natural. On the same principle, the 10man dungeons -- Karazhan and Zul'Aman -- both felt exactly right, because they were designed with 10 players in mind. Karazhan was huge, but not once did the experience feel awkward because all boss encounters and rooms were designed around 10 people playing in there.
When you get to Wrath, Ulduar in particular -- Ulduar was designed with 25 players in mind. The boss rooms, the open spaces were all created specifically so that 25 people would feel like this space was absolutely gigantic. But when you take 10 people in that space, what was once comfortably "huge" for 25 borders on the absurd for 10 players. That's why it doesn't feel right -- because the space simply doesn't fit the people in it.
The inherent problem here isn't the loot, or the equalization of content, it's the design of that content that bothers me. While I don't really care about loot (it is nice, I can't lie, but it isn't everything), loot is something that drives a large number of raiders -- way larger than people like me, who just want to play through the thing. However, given that it is much, much easier to recruit 9 people than 24, what I am looking at is a drastic drop of people that want to do the 25man content, simply because people would rather follow the path of least resistance to get what they want -- the loot. This would be absolutely fine with me, except for one small thing -- the design.
I'd be perfectly happy running 10man raids, if those raids were designed around 10 players. Instead, they're designed around 25 players. Taking 10 people into a 25man zone feels about as comfortable to me as taking three people in to kill Ragnaros -- which is to say, not very comfortable at all. It feels in a way like I'm cheating somehow. Like there should be more people present, but there isn't, so we're doing something wrong. And it's because I look around that huge, empty room and somewhere in the back of my head realize that there should obviously be a lot more people in here than I've brought. That this space, no matter how pretty, was designed for something that I'm not doing "the right way."
This is I think why I'm one of a few -- because I do a lot of design work, so something like the space being "off" triggers some sort of odd discomfort in me that I can't quite pinpoint. I don't like the thought that something is being designed for more, then played by less -- to me that seems like an inherent flaw in the design of the zone. Hopefully this makes a little more sense to you; it made me feel much better once I realized where exactly my problem sat.
So how does this get addressed, how does it get fixed? Do we ask the designers to essentially create two raid dungeons, identical in content but differing in scale? Do we hope that they find some way to make the difference between 10 people in a room and 25 people in a room somehow less noticeable? Do they need to maybe cut the 10man/25man model, call it good at 15 raiders, and just design the dungeons with one group in mind? What do you think?
Filed under: Breakfast Topics
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 6)
dave2 Apr 30th 2010 7:12PM
@Zenith .. extra NPCs on boss fights in 10s? That's brilliant. That would be a great way of bringing some of the epic large scale back, you still have an army to do these things.
themightysven Apr 30th 2010 8:22AM
I've only done Anub'rekhan, but it seemed like a really big space, even for 25 man. Did they keep the old 40 man design?
vanye111 Apr 30th 2010 8:38AM
Yes, they did.
Eamara Apr 30th 2010 8:38AM
Yep. The design of the place is exactly as it was at 40 man.
Colin Apr 30th 2010 8:39AM
Yep, as far as I know. That's why ten person Naxx runs feel ridiculous.
Kanuris Apr 30th 2010 10:25AM
I like to think 10 man Naxx is just a cleanup crew after Arthas does a botched res on the raid bosses after a 25 man stomps through.
Calid Apr 30th 2010 8:24AM
On the one hand I see where you are coming from designed for 25 players in mind, but in my head that is where the boss "lives". I came to his house to kill him and he has as much space as he wants.
vloriggio Apr 30th 2010 9:15AM
^ This.
I've raided (casually, but raided nonetheless) since BC and I've gone to the vanilla raids with smaller groups, and I've never felt the encounters to be anything less than epic.
Open space and grandiose settings, no matter how empty of actual players, have always felt epic to me.
I do agree that some of the newer raid encounters are less epic, but for me, what truly makes them epic is the design of the encounter itself. A boss that just sits there until you attack, without saying nor doing anything except taking and dishing out damage, is not very epic.
Herald Volazj always struck me as unnerving and dangerous due to the whispers before and during the fight. Ingvar the Plunderer's fight, even, is pretty epic - he's talking to an agent of Arthas before the fight, and gets transformed mid-way through.
Scourgelord Tyrannus is my current favourite - I'm almost sorry to have to kill the guy. He's instantly present when you enter, and throughout the instance. Once you get to him, he feels like a true nemesis, since he's been dogging your steps up until the actual encounter.
From what other people have said, too, it seems to me that the most memorable encounters just aren't the ones where it's pull-pew-pew-loot. Interesting mechanics, lore material and challenge are what make the fight epic, not the number of people.
Kel'thuzad always felt incredibly epic to me due to the lead-up to the fight. Thinking that it's 10 people locked in his throne room, surrounded by scores of undead... that just felt claustrophobic and terrifying, which is perfect for that boss. And of course, having an animated pile of dragon bones as a guard dog was pretty awesome, too.
Jorges Apr 30th 2010 10:46AM
That was exactly was I was thinking when I read the "25 space too big for 10". Besides the design aspect of 40/25/10 mans (wich is completely valid), there's also the "lore" part.
Ulduar is HUGE because it is a facility made by titans AND FOR TITANS.. they didn't think about 25 or 10 people going there to destroy it when they were building it. You can also apply this concept when you enter The Terrace of the Makers, or any of the open world titan places in Stormpeaks... can we say they were designed for 25 people and that's why it feels so huge when you're soloing or with other 4 people? I think not, those are titan constructions and they should be HUGE (not to mention that they are in the open world, and are not designed for a specific amount of people).
Naxxramas was a raid for 40 people.. it is also a Necropolis, a city of the dead. I don't think a city should be small or big.. it has the size it has, and that's it. Maybe that's a perfect place for undead and they feel comfortable with that size, who knows.
Karazhan was a tower built for a sole master and it's servants. This master wasn't too big anyway (just your regular demon boss), and the servants (besides bosses) were all of them of a "normal" size. The structure was built (as in, someone "in" the game built it) to acomodate this. And yes, you only needed 10 people to storm the place, 25 would have been a waste of resources... BTW, in the room of the final boss, 25 people could fit perfectly.
ICC has its "normal" and Huge places. All in the same instance. In the 10 man version of the fight to save Valitria, Blizzard moved the four mages to the front and only two doors open instead off all 4. Diferent mechanics for the same place, but the room size stayed the same. Yeah, they virtually reduce the space of the fight by doing this, but it is a fact that this room is holding a dragon and it has to be big. It doesn't matter if 25 or 10 people come to rescue her. On the contrary, the throne room of The Lich King works for 25 people as well for 10 people... but The Lich King is just a regular person, maybe a bit taller than your average human, but it's not as big as a Demon or something. The room could have been smaller, but it is a throne room. It has to be big.
So the point is, while the design factor is obviously very important since they have to make a place that fit a fight for a 25 or 10 man mechanics, they don't have to make a place that fit a specific number of players if the lore suggest that the place should be of a certain size. The place doesn't have to "feel right" for us, it wasn't made for the people that is going to destroy it, but for the creatures that "live" there. So, as long as the size of the place don't interfere with the mechanics of the fights, this souldn't be an issue.
Jimson Apr 30th 2010 1:56PM
A small correction... Kara was built for Medivh, who was a human. Prince Malchezzar was a demon, yes, but no one's quite sure how he ended up there.
Jorges Apr 30th 2010 3:10PM
OMG yes, you're totally right. Don't know how I let that one slip. Thanks!
Jackwraith Apr 30th 2010 8:39AM
I can certainly sympathize with this idea. The 'feel' of content is often as important as the story behind it and I'm of those hoping for an increase in the importance of the story as a reason for some of the technical changes in Cataclysm.
However, I can remember playing D&D as a kid and plunging through White Plume Mountain and going to the homes of the 3 giant kings (G 1, 2, 3 Against the Giants; I'm really dating myself...) and finding enormous spaces and fighting huge battles with a party of 6, not even 10. So, I guess it's a bit harder for me to relate to, since the upper levels of character power in the WoW is along the same lines as that of D&D. 10 lvl80s IS an army and don't necessarily need 30 more to fill the space between themselves and the mobs. They've got the muscle and power to do it themselves, which is why they spent 80 levels (in game terms: months? years?) getting there.
You can already wield earthshaking power. Having 9 other people that can do the same thing should be enough 'presence' (for lack of a better term) to fill even the largest room, I think.
Cowmonaut May 1st 2010 5:34PM
Now there is an interesting thought. Increase the sense of presence of each of the *players* themselves. Would be a difficult if elegant solution to the problem.
Ian Apr 30th 2010 8:44AM
I don't truly understand this... in real life, buildings don't resize based on the number of people in them; they don't have signs on them saying "only 25 or more people allowed in here" because the space will feel "off" for a smaller group. I can see some of your points, but we're essentially dealing with architectural design here and as far as I am aware, no one has really had problems in the real world yet.
As for Ulduar, the size of it wasn't for 25 mans or 10 mans... it was that size because it was a Titan facility built by and for Titans. As a result it is meant to feel huge regardless of how many people in there: 1, 10, 25, 40 or 100. This is the same reasoning that cathedrals were built to epic scales in the mediaeval period to make Man feel small and humble in the "presence of God". I don't feel like I'm cheating entering Ulduar in a small raid, much like I don't feel like I'm cheating when I enter the large spaces inside the British Museum.
It does not need "fixing".
CaryEverett Apr 30th 2010 9:16AM
It's definitely a real life problem that real life architects have to deal with.
There is a certain amount of space a building (or room, or elevator, or stadium, or pool), and it can only hold a finite number of people safely.
You may not have noticed, but a place you'll see it frequently is posted in restaurants, elevators, and pools, saying the "maximum capacity" of people cannot safely exceed this. I suppose the sign is pretty silly, but the concept isn't.
There is definitely a different feeling if you are in a baseball stadium that is at maximum capacity, or one that is nearly empty.
greeto Apr 30th 2010 9:32AM
Of course there are maximum capacities. He is talking about the lack of *minimum* capacities. I'm sure one could argue against that too though...
toddcore Apr 30th 2010 9:36AM
I'm not sure what planet you live in but most structures on Earth are designed with an expected occupancy in mind. If you went to see a local band at an arena that can hold 100,000 and only 200 people showed up you'd probably feel like the venue was far too big for the event being held there. Similarly, if you saw Metallica at a local bar and 100,000 were trying to cram in you'd likely feel the venue was disproportionately small.
Size and scale are important factors in design and if that's a fact with which you intend to argue I can only hope you work in an unrelated field.
greeto Apr 30th 2010 1:57PM
I'm sure he means 80s Metallica, before their "HAY KID! IMMA SMACK YOU IF YOU USE NAPSTER! WOO DRM FTW!" days.
jealouspirate Apr 30th 2010 8:47AM
Hm, that's an interesting perspective. I admit it has never bothered me before, but I can appreciate why it might not sit right with some.
I suppose this is just my particular personality, but the ideas and concepts are a huge part of the "epic" for me. A room of 40 people and a giant fire monster aren't enough for me.
On the other hand, I quested through Grizzly Hills and helped Drakuru... and look what happened. The betrayal, the consequences for the trolls of Zul'drak and their Gods. That, for me, was more epic than many of the raids I've been in.
In Lord of the Rings, some of the most epic moments for me aren't the big battles (of which there are many), they are the conversations. The insights that hit you like a sledgehammer.
I don't really know where I'm going with this... basically, I found Tirion's speech at the beginning of ICC more epic than a lot of the bosses. Give me reasons, ideas, insights, revelations... and then I'll be in awe. Giant monsters are a dime a dozen, they don't excite me, regardless of the spacing/scaling of the environment.
Ard Apr 30th 2010 8:56AM
It's never once bothered me that a room is too big for a 10-man raid. I agree with Calid: It's the boss's space, be it big or small. It doesn't really matter to me, as long as it's big enough to hold a 25-man raid.
And even then, if the room for a 25-man seemed cramped, I'd just consider it to be part of the encounter and deal with it, like not standing in the fire. Nothing worth getting my panties in a bunch over.