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4-30-2010 @ 9:14AM
Rossi:I agree with the size argument, definitely. I keep finding myself wishing for the epicness of Karazhan. That place was tops. And when you design 25 player raids, then scale them down to 10 man, they just don't work. There's boss abilities that don't work, there's punishing mechanics that can make it much harder to get the right comp for your 10 man (think faction champions, or Deathwhisper's curses, or even Saurfang adds if you don't have enough ranged), and the scale doesn't work. Raids need to feel like you have an army at your back, and you can do that with 10 players, but not when you're in the space for a 25. Ulduar certainly made you feel ridiculously small as a 10 man run.I still think the "path of least resistance" will be 25s for a lot of people. It will drop more loot. let me say that again. Rossi, it will drop more loot. Your mathematical chances of getting loot are going to be better in 25s than in 10s. 10s and 25s are going to be equal difficulty, and in fact I think it will be arguably *easier* to get a 25 man group. I can't tell you how many times boss fights have been stupidly hard just because we don't have enough ranged or we don't have a mage or something. With 25s, its hard to come up with a group that doesn't bring all 10 classes, or come close to it.There is a problem with having a separate 10 man dungeon from the 25 man dungeon too thought. That means that you have to run two equivalent difficulty raids in a week, and if the raids are at all long, then that gets to be a lot of time commitment. In TOC it wasn't so bad, since there was only 5 bosses. We have a 3 day raid schedule, and we were able to farm 25 man normal, and the first 2 bosses in 25 heroic, and then we'd split off into set groups and do 10 man heroic sometime during the week. At one point, we had 4 groups farming toc 10 heroic. Once ICC came out though, it just got to be too much raiding for a lot of us once a wing or two had been open, and our 10 man groups fell apart. Having to run a 10 man and a 25 man each week just to stay caught up on progression (if that even matters) and badges (which do matter) is a bit much. Also, if they made a separate 10 man run for each tier (as much as I think that would be awesome), it wouldn't make sense to have it drop the same exact loot. So you're going to have to go back and forth to farm random drops between the 10 and the 25 each tier.Rossi, I think your problem with this boils down to the fact that, while you like to do 25s, you're convinced that NO ONE will do 25s anymore, and that it will be IMPOSSIBLE to find a group for 25 man. So EVERYONE will be running 10 mans, which were designed for 25 players. That's just not going to happen. The amount of QQ alone makes it pretty clear a lot of people will still WANT to run 25s. and again IT WILL DROP MORE LOOT! :) You know we're all in it for the loot, right? :P
4-30-2010 @ 9:27AM
Just dropping more loot is insufficient motivation.You indicated yourself that you're more likely to have all classes and roles accounted for in a 25 man raid. You'll inevitably have a good bit of overlap - substantially more than likely in a 10 man group. There may be a marginal increase in the chances of a boss dropping something you want but that's more than compensated for by the fact that there are 3 DPS warriors or 4 rogues or 3 mages in your raid.
4-30-2010 @ 9:40AM
Heads up: Rossi didn't post this.
4-30-2010 @ 9:52AM
It will drop more loot yes, but that does not mean a better chance of loot. They said the loot distribution will be equal. This means that in a 10 man, 2 pieces of loot drop. That is 20% when compared to group size. The same goes for 25 man, 20% would be 5 pieces of loot. It doesn't mean that you have a better chance at loot especially since you will have more people to roll against unless you are the tank.
4-30-2010 @ 2:18PM
The only problem with your argument Rankol is that 25s will drop more loot **PER PERSON**
4-30-2010 @ 3:03PM
It is not more loot per person. It still comes out to 20%. Regardless, you chance to get loot is the same. It is not more loot per person. Please look at the math before you respond.
4-30-2010 @ 5:17PM
You are demonstrably incorrect:http://www.wow.com/2010/04/26/cataclysm-raid-progression-refinements/:"We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a HIGHER QUANTITY OF LOOT PER PLAYER (ITEMS, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people"(emphasis mine)
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