Shifting Perspectives: Eclipse come Cataclysm, page 2

How Nature's Torrent interacts with Eclipse is obviously the larger picture here, and sadly, we don't have any information about it at all. All that we know is that this function of the spell is what really matters. How Nature's Torrent works with Eclipse is going to make or break the fun factor of our cast sequence.
There are almost limitless possibilities as for how Nature's Torrent could interact with Eclipse. To start with, the spell could function as an "execute" ability of sorts, where it gains a very large damage bonus from wherever you are on the Eclipse spectrum but shifts you completely to neutral or perhaps even towards the opposite effect. For this to work, druids would probably try to get their Eclipse bars shifted as far to a single side as possible before unloading a powerful burst attack. Then the process repeats itself. In this function, the damage of Nature's Torrent is paramount, while the actual utility of the spell is rather superfluous.
A similar method would be that it doesn't totally shift the scale but does impact it significantly for higher amounts of damage. Say, for example, that you are fully Solar. At this point, you could begin the 1221221 or whatever sequence of rotating Starfires and Wraths to maintain that level, or you could use Nature's Torrent for a larger burst of damage at a higher cost in shifting the scale -- say, down to halfway between full Solar and neutral. Once you hit the apex, this would cause the rotation to be NT > Wrath until full again > Starfire if NT on cooldown > Wrath back to full > NT. Although it would still be a set rotation of sorts, the rotation would deviate based upon haste and crit values, with higher haste allowing for more spell casts before the cooldown on Nature's Torrent is up again and crit increasing the rate of Eclipse gain.
This is but one theory, and there are many, many others out there currently. Nature's Torrent could act as a form of the new Steady Shot and increase our Eclipse gain/consumption for a period of time. Perhaps Nature's Torrent will be just a massive shift in Eclipse, and you try to keep your Eclipse values balanced towards neutral until you can use it. Or perhaps Nature's Torrent will become Eclipse as we know it today, at least to a certain extent, meaning that when you cast Nature's Torrent, it locks in the Eclipse buff you currently have at the expense of shifting you to the neutral zone or merely being unable to shift the scale back towards that direction for a time.
There are far too many methods in which Nature's Torrent could possibly function with Eclipse. We have no solid information to go on, nothing at all -- yet as I said, speculation is good. Just don't allow yourself to get too hung up on a particular version of how Eclipse and/or Nature's Torrent will function. If the new revision of Eclipse tells us anything, it's that Blizzard really knows how to hit into left field.
Eclipse and scaling
Finally we move into the last aspect of Eclipse: how it is going to scale. Scaling is a very fickle issue in this game, and balance druids are certainly very keen on it. We've suffered through various scaling issues at differing points of the game that have hindered our ability to perform. How Eclipse actually works with all of the stats that we get may not hold a major impact on the fun portion of the bonus, but it will certain influence our DPS capabilities. As with everything else, we know very little of how Eclipse is going to scale; we do know, however, that there are going to be two key scaling components that need to be looked into.
First and foremost is how Eclipse is going to scale with haste and crit. Balance druids currently have a love/hate relationship with both of these stats to an infuriating degree. We want and don't want both at the same time. It's a hurtful, abusive relationship that needs to end. I tend to think that Eclipse is probably going to exist similar to a system that mirrors rage. For those who don't play a warrior, rage functions off of a pretty basic formula; the warrior hits something and gains rage based upon the damage that he deals. Critical hits grant more rage, and the faster he can swing due to haste, the faster he can generate rage. If you do follow warriors, then you also know that rage is being normalized in Cataclysm once again, so that it no longer is a function based on damage done but merely a function based on hitting the target. For example, a normal swing grants 5 rage and a critical hit grants 8 rage. The main reasoning for using such a system is balance. It is very easy to tweak and balance around a variable standard of resource gain than it is to balance around completely random resource gain. Ghostcrawler (lead systems designer) didn't outright support this system, but he did hint towards it.
We're going to try a few different things and see what feels best. Spell's cast is the simplest system, but we also get a little bit more dynamic system if it was damage done or even if just crits moved the meter more. We still don't want a rotation that is just 1111222211112222.
Ghostcrawler is correct that a flat system wherein each spell gives a set amount of "Eclipse points" based upon a normalized formula can lead to a rather boring rotation that doesn't have much flow to it. That being said, we've also seen with the current rage system that basing such things on damage done can be quite a difficult task. Although it would be slightly easier to accomplish with spellcasting and the removal of incoming damage altering resource generation, it would still be very difficult to tune it to a level where it is perfectly balanced across multiple gearing levels. In this case, I say that simple is probably best. A simple system where each spell moved the Eclipse bar by a specific amount normalized, or not, around base cast time while critical hits give adjust the bar slightly more is going to be the optimal choice. This would allow for nominal amounts of scaling by both haste and crit while not having to factor in the scaling of spell power and proc effects, which can cause hiccups within the system. How each of the stats would or should scale is up in the air, as would how we would end up favoring each stat under such a system. It is still the best possible choice for achieving overall spec balance.
Last but not least is the scaling form the mastery stat itself. We know that mastery is going to be a new stat that appears on higher-end gear and that we are all going to want this stat, but how it interacts with Eclipse specifically is a bit of a toss-up. It hasn't been laid out in blue text yet, but it is a sure guess that the mastery stat will more likely than not increase the damage modifier attached to Eclipse. It is possible that mastery could increase the rate at which our spells alter the Eclipse bar instead. Either system seems like it is going to end up being a bit awkward -- not so much in how it effects our ability to deal damage or in how we are able to model it, but more so in how Blizzard will express it in game terms.
There's a hefty wait-and-see aspect in all of this, which is basically the mantra of any Cataclysm discussion at this point. All of that notwithstanding, balance druids still have some solid ground to stand on. Eclipse is changing. How it's changing, we know; if the change will function the way Blizzard intends, we are still pretty clueless. The only answers can be found in more information that isn't going to come out until beta does. In the meantime, speculate away. It does wonders for the soul.
Every week, Shifting Perspectives treks across Azeroth in pursuit of truth, beauty and insight concerning the druid class. Sometimes it finds the latter, or something good enough for government work. Whether you're a bear, cat, moonkin, tree or stuck in caster form, we've got the skinny on druid changes in patch 3.3, a look at the disappearance of the bear tank, and thoughts on why you should be playing the class (or why not).





Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Lissanna Apr 30th 2010 4:23PM
Dear Eclipse,
Please don't suck in Cataclysm.
Dreamstorm Apr 30th 2010 6:08PM
Amen!
Szass Apr 30th 2010 7:10PM
Dear Tyler,
I couldn't make it past the third paragraph.
Quit crying.
Wild baseless complaints about a system with which you know NOTHING about is just crying to hear yourself cry.
You and all you "Wowinsiders" need to understand two things.
The game is changing, and Blizzard knows what it is doing.
They aren't blowing up the whole damn world just to enable flying.Get it straight.
Wait til you actually have some sort of reliable information before the tears start.
Druids will be fine, all the classes will be fine. Raiding will be fine.
Seriously ,unless you have some real news, STFU already.
CaryEverett Apr 30th 2010 7:25PM
I have probably the most incredibly simple solution to Eclipse... It could work basically the exact way it does now!
*gasp* "Whatever does she mean?"
It's pretty simple! When you cast a Nature or Arcane spell, you get a 15 second buff that boosts the other type of damage, and you move in the direction on the meter. When you cast another spell of the same element, it refreshes the buff as a new, more powerful version.
When you are ready to go in the other direction, the buff ceases keep refreshing, and you can climb as high as you want in the other direction. When the 15 seconds runs out, you gain the new buff (since both can't be active at the same time), and you may start climbing in the original direction as soon as you want.
*laughs* It's basically the exact same thing we have now just with a pretty new UI.
Brent Apr 30th 2010 4:40PM
I might be missing something, but the idea of 121212 would defeat the point of the new Eclipse, as I'm understanding it. With each spell cast, the other discipline gains a buff, but the original discipline doesn't lose anything. If I'm spamming Wrath, I'll keep hitting right around that average damage number, constantly adding a little more buff to Arcane. Then it becomes a betting game: At what point do I unleash all this pent-up Arcane benefit to bring a hammer down on a foe. Will it be the killing blow? Will it only focus 100% aggro on me and I die? Will it proc a buff on a Cataclysm boss if I smash it with such a high level of buffed Arcane (or Nature)?
Also, the little slider must be influenced by damage dealt, not just numbers of times cast or mana spent. It'd be no fun at all to know "I cast four Wrath to move the slider two ticks and two Starfire to move the slider three ticks" or whatever. If it's damage related, it'll be a little more chaotic, unpredictable, and enjoyable if you somehow master each individual encounter to whatever end you wish to exhibit.
Perhaps the Eclipse slider gravitates toward balance? Or was that already revealed to be not true? That would make sense, keeping you from storing up a big buff in Arcane by nuking bunnies in Teldrassil so you can unleash 100% more damage on that unwitting elite elsewhere.
Do we know if the new Eclipse is going to also increase mana cost for the buffed spell? I haven't seen anything pointing to that, and it'd be a change in mechanic, but maybe that'll be another element of the spell choice decision. If you don't use a spell of the alternate school, you'll be stuck burning your mana pool in one or the other... Maybe.
Tyler Caraway Apr 30th 2010 5:12PM
There is nothing thus far to indicate that casting a spell to use the buff would cause the entire Eclipse meter to drain. Not say that it isn't possible, but doing so would just be bad in practice. Either way, doing so probably wouldn't stop the 121212 rotation at all, and it certainly wouldn't cause balance druids to want to shift between both sides. If casting a buff spelled drains the Eclipse meter, then it is far more likely that druids simply won't go to the end of either bar. They'll cast one or two Wraths then a Starfire, rinse, repeat. Unless there is some absurd scaling on the buff (such as a single Wrath only grants a 1% bonus but casting 7 Wrath's grants a 20% bonus) then there isn't going to be any reason to chain-cast to buff a single spell.
Balancing the scale around damage done is a great system, it just has a very major flaw. It is excessively difficult to balance out a resource system that relates towards damage done. Although the scaling gear issue is mostly to blame for it, look at how damage scaled in WotLK. Players were going 4k low end and 6k high end DPS in Naxx and now they are going 8k low end and 11k high end in ICC. Balancing a system around such wide variables to where it functions well in both extremes is excessively tricky. It would probably be easier to do for Eclipse than it was for Rage since Eclipse doesn't influence our ability to use spells, but it's still a very steep balancing margin.
Further, a system where Wrath casts grant slide the Eclipse scale by a factor of 5 and Starfire by a factor of 10 (to use completely arbitrary values) doesn't have to be flat - nor would it. Haste would change how rapidly you gain or expend the Eclipse scale and crit could also influence it by causing a large shift. This adds the element of RNG into the equation, to where you'd have a 'rotation' but it would be somewhat flexible, and allows for the resource to scale. Also keep in mind that DoTs and Starfall should slide the scale as well.
Thus far, there has been no mention of any form of drawback on Eclipse.
dippymister Apr 30th 2010 10:47PM
@szass
Do you have to be such a douche? He's speculating about what the new eclipse will be like and how it will affect our gameplay. He's not whining, just uncertain about whether or not it will do what it's supposed to, like almost all balance druids are. Apparently you've never been around when a new expansion/game is coming out - People will speculate about it, ESPECIALLY if its changing the way they're playing now. If you don't like it, then don't read it, and please stop trolling.
Daniel Apr 30th 2010 4:41PM
I have never understood this logic: random=uninteresting. Randomness is interesting to me. It's interesting to all the people who go to Las Vegas and who play the Powerball and other assorted lotteries. I personally thought that one of the worst things they ever did was take the stun proc off of Starfire. I had so much fun with that proc I miss it to this day.
Lissanna Apr 30th 2010 5:24PM
having no control over damage dealing is not interesting because it takes out the element of skill and replaces it with luck. You want a balance between luck & skill to make it interesting.
DeathPaladin Apr 30th 2010 6:03PM
Random can be interesting, but not when random is the only determining factor for whether you win or lose. Powerball and slot machines cater more to the fantasy of getting rich without having to work.
The more glamorous games are things like blackjack or craps. They are also random, but they also require knowing how to capitalize on the randomness if you want a better chance at making a profit.
On a different note, I can see taking out random stun mechanics. From a design standpoint, it's really difficult to create a situation where you don't have one of the two situations cropping up:
1. The stun is so powerful that you can only really win in fights where it procs
2. The stun is so weak that it might as well not exist
Drez Apr 30th 2010 4:41PM
Tyler,
You're making a lot of assumptions in your analysis that might not be true, we simply don't have enough information yet (as you acknowledge at the end). I realize that you acknowledged head-on that you're guessing here, so please don't take this as QQ or mean-spirited criticism, more that I'd like to know your thoughts.
I'm not sure why you think that the ultimate max-dps use of eclipse will be for us to try and hover at near max solar or max lunar. This actually seems like the least likely way eclipse will work. What's the name of our spec? Balance. The idea that we'll be hovering on one end or the other just doesn't pass the smell test when you consider that the entire purpose of eclipse is to alternate between the different spell schools. I'm expecting something where using the benefits of one side of the balance will use up that bonus and push you into wanting to build the opposite side's buff. That also prevents the ultimate downfall of eclipse that you didn't mention: RNG influence on eclipse and, thus, our dps. I can't tell you how many times I've cursed the Blizzard gods when a lunar eclipse runs out just as heroism/bloodlust is cast. D*MN YOU HASTE SOFT CAP!! If we use it up as spells from a school are cast, eclipse is on our terms and the problem is solved.
I also think it's quite possible they make Nature's Torrent an instant-cast nuke, because it has a semi-long cooldown and one of our major downfalls in is our lack of burst dps (our raison d'etre) while casting on the run.
Thanks for the great column.
- Dreslav (A-Crushridge US)
Tyler Caraway Apr 30th 2010 5:00PM
In theory, yes, balance druids would want to switch between both sides of the spectrum, it's just that the base system doesn't support that fact unless something artificially influences it. Going from one end of the spectrum and then swinging to the opposite end of the spectrum would end up with the getting fewer buffed casts off and more casts off with a lower buff (assuming that the variable of the buff depends on how far over to one end of the scale you are.)
For this reason, you would hover at one end or the other in order to maximize the number of casts you get with a bonus and the potency of the bonus. Conversely, there are other alternatives. If the buff if flat - meaning that you get the same buff value no matter how far along on one side that you are - then the balance druid would merely hang around the middle of the spectrum, but still do the same thing.
Without some specific interaction from Nature's Torrent, the basic system of Eclipse, as far as we know it anyway, just doesn't support a cast style where you actually switch from one side or the other. However the system works out and how Nature's Torrent influences Eclipse is obviously going to be the major factor in how our rotation ends up turning out, and it is true that we lack any real solid information on any of this.
The only thing we do know is that the current RNG of Eclipse is gone. We will, potentially, still have some Eclipse RNG to a degree in so much as how far a spell is capable of pushing the bar, but it won't be anything compared to how it is today.
Nature's Torrent probably won't be our answer to movement DPS, it looks more like that will be Wild Mushroom. Wild Mushroom is instant, so it can already be used on the move, it also doesn't have a cooldown, so it can be spammed endlessly. Blizzard has said that a druid will be able to force the mushroom to explode when they want it to which is most likely to be done by casting the spell again (and there being a limit of only one mushroom active at a time.) So, you could merely spam Wild Mushroom on the go. Obviously it won't be great DPS, but it will be better than nothing. WM is an AoE attack that Blizzard has said will find a way into our single target rotation. Without a cooldown or the like, the only real feasible way that this is possible without the ability merely dealing more damage than Wrath or Starfire is for it to be our movement spell (unless there is some other new talent that they add which can fix this (such as the explosion adds on a hefty DoT or debuff of some form.))
Lissanna Apr 30th 2010 5:25PM
I can still dream of having nature's torrent as an instant-cast spell!
wyndy Apr 30th 2010 4:49PM
When I read the statements you quoted I found myself wondering about how this will play out.
It seems that natures torrent in some ways may prove to be the wild card. After all it states it will cast nature or arcane or possibly both. The "both" part sounds kinda rng-ish to me. While the possibility of predicting what it will likely cast after a few times with a particular mob may become apparent, the possibility of it casting both seems to add an element of the unknown to balancing a scale. As you pointed out it will be interesting to see if it somehow resets everything or drives it more and sends you toward the other side of the scale. Is the damage of the nature compared to the damage of the arcane on some sort of level ground or percentage to begin with scaling to the mob's resistances you are nuking?
Also, did they clarify that you can go to one end of the meter and essentially stay there?
I mean it seems as if there would be some kind of internal cd or reset after so many casts that might force you to cast in the opposite direction sort of like how they changed the current eclipse to prevent people from keeping one eclipse side up as much as possible.
All in all I look forward to some kind of change as nothing has ever frustrated me as much as the rng factor and wasted eclipses in movement based fights we find ourselves in with the current situation.
Moonkinmaniac Apr 30th 2010 4:50PM
Sounds like this is complicated I hope it turns out fun I'd like to be able to move out of fire and still do damage.
I read somewhere we were getting a sunfire or something, an attack that would be a beam that shoots out and silences those in its path. Its not confirmed Any word on this?
Tyler Caraway Apr 30th 2010 5:13PM
It is confirmed. On the Dev Twitter Chat, it was said that balance druids would get Solarbeam. Solarbeam will act just like the beams from the Freya encounter where they are a small circle on the ground, probably around 5 yards in diameter, that silences anyone inside the beam.
Lissanna Apr 30th 2010 5:23PM
we'll sautee our mushrooms with solar beam. Who wants dinner tonight?
nekorion Apr 30th 2010 4:56PM
I don't play a boomy or anything, but my percieved nature of the eclipse change is that since dots will naturally be hasted, and there is one on each side of the spectrum, I'm thinking one dot will dramatically outpace the other. Doing that "forces" the meter to gravitate toward one side, while you desperately cast to get it into line. The eclipse meter doesn't have to be a linear relationship either.
Heck they said they want interesting talents too? Take this on for size. Deep balance talent "Sunny Day" - When the solar bar becomes full, your starfire has X% chance to singe the target causing them to take Y arcane damage for Z seconds. If this damage crits is causes double solar power.
It continually forces the eclipse toward the side your already on, it's random, but still provides damage. I'm pretty excited with what they churn out. Blizzard likes the RNG as long as it's manage, so I'm pretty sure there will be some talents like that.
debanyw Apr 30th 2010 5:15PM
The issue with a talent like that is that it won't help our haste scaling issue. The current Eclipse model has us casting Wrath a lot...I'd say roughly half of an encounter. Meaning that half our spell casts don't show benefit from the stat assuming decent Nature's Grace uptime. So if we get yet another talent that pushes towards Wrath, our haste scaling will probably stay pretty terrible, even with hasted DoTs and Starfire's amazing haste scaling.
Wrath will always be a Thorn in our side in terms of haste. And making it slower isn't the answer.
Tyler Caraway Apr 30th 2010 5:17PM
DoT ticks causing the Eclipse bar to slide would certainly add an interesting variable, but not one that is overtly extreme. If the system is based around damage done; our DoTs deal such pitiful damage in relation to our nukes that it would be impossible for them to cause a more dramatic shift in Eclipse than simple casting would. If you go on a set sliding scale based on casting, then it is more likely that DoT ticks would still have a very low impact on the scale due to the normalization. Not saying it isn't impossible to create a system where this is what happens, it certain is possible, it just seems that such a system is unlikely.