The Care and Feeding of Warriors: Undertuned
The Care and Feeding of Warriors is about warriors, those lovable, squeezable, strokable bundles of pure joy who seethe with a burning inner fire, a rage that can only be quenched in blood. Matthew Rossi tries quenching it in delicious caffeinated beverages. You'd be surprised how often that works.
I have to admit that I'm concerned.
First off, I'm concerned that I don't have a rival on staff. There's no fun warrior/X rivalry like there is for mages and warlocks, or hunters and everyone else, or rogues and whoever cares about rogues (casters, maybe?). It's hard, as a warrior, to really feel like I'm in a rivalry with the other tanking classes since two of them can heal or transform into a giant turkey or a kitty or a fishing lure or whatever it is paladins turn into (I'm aware paladins don't turn into anything, stop typing) and death knights are just warrior 2.0, and in Cataclysm will be even more so with two DPS trees and a dedicated tanking tree. In the end, the other classes are just sort of there. You can't ignore them and you have to be aware of what they can and can't do, but it's hard to really feel any animosity towards them. Maybe I need to start calling Chase names.
I've also been concerned about the changes coming in Cataclysm, and have spent a lot of time thinking about how the warrior class will play and feel once they come in. With armor and stamina differences between plate DPS and other melee coming down, other classes getting boosts to survivability in PvP and PvE, and long time warrior mainstays like Sunder Armor, Mortal Strike, Whirlwind and Heroic Strike/Cleave getting adjustments (as well as rage normalization coming in) the classic advantages of the warrior that counterbalance our deficiencies are being taken out. At first, this had me in a relative fevered pet, a consternation that has since faded somewhat.
You see, if gimmicks like Whirlwind are being rebalanced to not be gimmicky, and armor/stamina edges are being reduced, and tanking tools like Sunder are being revamped, and the very mechanics of rage are being rebalanced, it all ends up in the same place: in Cataclysm, warriors will need sizable, sustained single target DPS increases to be viable, both as tanks and as dedicated DPS, because warriors are undertuned. Yes, undertuned.
What do I mean by that?
At present, warrior mechanics are designed so that, at low or no rage, warriors perform worse than other classes. Warriors need to either take or deal damage to gain access to their 'fuel' so to speak, and their various stances and abilities are designed around that mechanic. (While another tank shares rage as a tanking mechanic it doesn't share stance switching, druids are expected/designed to stay in bear to tank.) Combining this factor with the various warrior sacred cows (the five stack of sunder on a target a protection warrior provides himself while tanking it, the 50% healing debuff an arms warrior provides, the ridiculously out of control semi-AoE of glyphed Cleave and Whirlwind for fury) and what we have is a class that is baseline undertuned, but has the ability thanks to rage and abilities that exploit rage to, effectively, 'overclock' itself.
Do a DPS parse on a fury warrior on a typical five man. Watch his DPS on trash, and on bosses. On a single target DPS fight, the fury warrior will hover at or below other hybrid classes in terms of pure DPS, depending on how creative he or she is with his or her abilities (rend dancing, for instance): they're certainly not more potent and may even come off as less so. Now, introduce trash mobs. The fury warrior's DPS goes up. Now, introduce waves of constantly spawning trash mobs, and a sustained damage mechanic that keeps rage bars full. Watch the fury warrior go. With limitless rage and the ability to make near constant use of Cleave and Whirlwind on a steady stream of adds, even a mediocre DPS warrior can put out ridiculously high DPS. This is a problem for class balance, and it's one I've mentioned before. Rebalancing Whirlwind to be a true AoE and making Cleave a button that requires real decision making, this isn't a bad change by itself.
The problem lies in the low DPS when not using those abilities. A DPS warrior pulling 9k or more on a run can often be seen to be doing half of that or less on a boss, especially one with a lot of motion or no steady rage return mechanic. The warrior DPS cycle is feast or famine. It's not harder than other DPS rotations (it's certainly not harder than a feral druid, for instance) but it's far more resource and GCD locked. Warriors have historically traded off those limitations (needing to build up rage, needing a nice stationary fight, needing lots of adds) for their strengths of higher armor and health and a nigh-infinite feedback loop that grows with available targets. With those gone or reduced drastically, the amount of bite a warrior's single target and non special attacks deliver needs to increase as well. Frankly, in a rage normalized world without WW or Cleave spam, Titan's Grip doesn't require that drastic damage decrease. You won't be hitting up to four targets with both weapons instantly anymore. The stats of the offhand weapon will just go to offsetting the inherent weakness of the warrior's purely physical damage in a world where Sunder only stacks to three and armor penetration is impossible to gear for.
You can see this to a degree now in how arms falls behind fury for high end raiding. Arms already suffers the undertuning effect in PvE without the benefit of TG's stats, Whirlwind's ability to instantly hit multiple mobs with two big weapons, or other means to capitalize on high rage the way fury can. Arms is actually a well designed spec at the moment with a variety of bleeds and procs, but it's a well designed spec built on top of mechanics that it can't benefit from in the same way, a victim of baseline undertuning.
Likewise, with Sunder reduced and rage normalized the possibly overpowered nature of warrior tanking (that nigh-limitless amount of rage that can be dumped into threat moves) will be gone, and when it goes, we're going to need more than Vengeance to balance it. Prot warrior DPS has been all over the place in Wrath, balanced and rebalanced to try and keep it at the sweet spot between 1/3 and 1/2 of dedicated DPS. (Right now I'd say it's close to 1/3rd... I can put out maybe 4k DPS in full tanking kit in ICC on large trash pulls while the pure DPS effortlessly pushes 12 to 15k) As a result we've been forced to rely on threat handout abilities like Tricks of the Trade and Misdirection and our own Vigilance. I don't want to see prot warriors rocket past other tanks in DPS or threat. But I do believe that warrior tanks are designed around sunder stacking and threat modifiers to the degree that without nigh infinite rage and HS spam, warrior threat is going to drop precipitously unless several other moves are increased in either threat or DPS to compensate. Rage tanks are deliberately tuned lower than mana/rune-runic pwer tanks because if they were not, then once they had sufficient rage they would skyrocket out of control for threat. With rage no longer providing that kind of benefit, that low baseline needs to come up some.
Finally there's PvP. With the hefty reduction on Mortal Strike and the loss of Bladestorm as a reliable finisher (since the second you use it you're going to lose your weapons) arms in PvP will need a significant new way to get actual damage applied to a target. There's just no way around it: without the ability to make every point of damage count double thanks to MS, arms is weak in PvP. (Note: I am not saying that arms is currently weak in PvP, but that it is overly reliant on that big undispellable 50% healing reduction, and without that, yes, arms will be weak indeed in PvP.) Arms requires a significant, potent, and reliable burst of damage to make up for what it is losing.
Frankly, I expect warriors to be very undertuned through the first few months of Cataclysm. Eventually I believe they'll be adjusted upwards to compensate for the various advantages they're losing, and I'm optimistic that the beta might actually provide enough hard information to get those fixes in sooner rather than later. With the overperforming counterbalancing abilities either removed or reduced/rebalanced, the basic undertuning will show through and will be redressed.
I have to admit that I'm concerned.
First off, I'm concerned that I don't have a rival on staff. There's no fun warrior/X rivalry like there is for mages and warlocks, or hunters and everyone else, or rogues and whoever cares about rogues (casters, maybe?). It's hard, as a warrior, to really feel like I'm in a rivalry with the other tanking classes since two of them can heal or transform into a giant turkey or a kitty or a fishing lure or whatever it is paladins turn into (I'm aware paladins don't turn into anything, stop typing) and death knights are just warrior 2.0, and in Cataclysm will be even more so with two DPS trees and a dedicated tanking tree. In the end, the other classes are just sort of there. You can't ignore them and you have to be aware of what they can and can't do, but it's hard to really feel any animosity towards them. Maybe I need to start calling Chase names.
I've also been concerned about the changes coming in Cataclysm, and have spent a lot of time thinking about how the warrior class will play and feel once they come in. With armor and stamina differences between plate DPS and other melee coming down, other classes getting boosts to survivability in PvP and PvE, and long time warrior mainstays like Sunder Armor, Mortal Strike, Whirlwind and Heroic Strike/Cleave getting adjustments (as well as rage normalization coming in) the classic advantages of the warrior that counterbalance our deficiencies are being taken out. At first, this had me in a relative fevered pet, a consternation that has since faded somewhat.
You see, if gimmicks like Whirlwind are being rebalanced to not be gimmicky, and armor/stamina edges are being reduced, and tanking tools like Sunder are being revamped, and the very mechanics of rage are being rebalanced, it all ends up in the same place: in Cataclysm, warriors will need sizable, sustained single target DPS increases to be viable, both as tanks and as dedicated DPS, because warriors are undertuned. Yes, undertuned.
What do I mean by that?
At present, warrior mechanics are designed so that, at low or no rage, warriors perform worse than other classes. Warriors need to either take or deal damage to gain access to their 'fuel' so to speak, and their various stances and abilities are designed around that mechanic. (While another tank shares rage as a tanking mechanic it doesn't share stance switching, druids are expected/designed to stay in bear to tank.) Combining this factor with the various warrior sacred cows (the five stack of sunder on a target a protection warrior provides himself while tanking it, the 50% healing debuff an arms warrior provides, the ridiculously out of control semi-AoE of glyphed Cleave and Whirlwind for fury) and what we have is a class that is baseline undertuned, but has the ability thanks to rage and abilities that exploit rage to, effectively, 'overclock' itself.
Do a DPS parse on a fury warrior on a typical five man. Watch his DPS on trash, and on bosses. On a single target DPS fight, the fury warrior will hover at or below other hybrid classes in terms of pure DPS, depending on how creative he or she is with his or her abilities (rend dancing, for instance): they're certainly not more potent and may even come off as less so. Now, introduce trash mobs. The fury warrior's DPS goes up. Now, introduce waves of constantly spawning trash mobs, and a sustained damage mechanic that keeps rage bars full. Watch the fury warrior go. With limitless rage and the ability to make near constant use of Cleave and Whirlwind on a steady stream of adds, even a mediocre DPS warrior can put out ridiculously high DPS. This is a problem for class balance, and it's one I've mentioned before. Rebalancing Whirlwind to be a true AoE and making Cleave a button that requires real decision making, this isn't a bad change by itself.
The problem lies in the low DPS when not using those abilities. A DPS warrior pulling 9k or more on a run can often be seen to be doing half of that or less on a boss, especially one with a lot of motion or no steady rage return mechanic. The warrior DPS cycle is feast or famine. It's not harder than other DPS rotations (it's certainly not harder than a feral druid, for instance) but it's far more resource and GCD locked. Warriors have historically traded off those limitations (needing to build up rage, needing a nice stationary fight, needing lots of adds) for their strengths of higher armor and health and a nigh-infinite feedback loop that grows with available targets. With those gone or reduced drastically, the amount of bite a warrior's single target and non special attacks deliver needs to increase as well. Frankly, in a rage normalized world without WW or Cleave spam, Titan's Grip doesn't require that drastic damage decrease. You won't be hitting up to four targets with both weapons instantly anymore. The stats of the offhand weapon will just go to offsetting the inherent weakness of the warrior's purely physical damage in a world where Sunder only stacks to three and armor penetration is impossible to gear for.
You can see this to a degree now in how arms falls behind fury for high end raiding. Arms already suffers the undertuning effect in PvE without the benefit of TG's stats, Whirlwind's ability to instantly hit multiple mobs with two big weapons, or other means to capitalize on high rage the way fury can. Arms is actually a well designed spec at the moment with a variety of bleeds and procs, but it's a well designed spec built on top of mechanics that it can't benefit from in the same way, a victim of baseline undertuning.
Likewise, with Sunder reduced and rage normalized the possibly overpowered nature of warrior tanking (that nigh-limitless amount of rage that can be dumped into threat moves) will be gone, and when it goes, we're going to need more than Vengeance to balance it. Prot warrior DPS has been all over the place in Wrath, balanced and rebalanced to try and keep it at the sweet spot between 1/3 and 1/2 of dedicated DPS. (Right now I'd say it's close to 1/3rd... I can put out maybe 4k DPS in full tanking kit in ICC on large trash pulls while the pure DPS effortlessly pushes 12 to 15k) As a result we've been forced to rely on threat handout abilities like Tricks of the Trade and Misdirection and our own Vigilance. I don't want to see prot warriors rocket past other tanks in DPS or threat. But I do believe that warrior tanks are designed around sunder stacking and threat modifiers to the degree that without nigh infinite rage and HS spam, warrior threat is going to drop precipitously unless several other moves are increased in either threat or DPS to compensate. Rage tanks are deliberately tuned lower than mana/rune-runic pwer tanks because if they were not, then once they had sufficient rage they would skyrocket out of control for threat. With rage no longer providing that kind of benefit, that low baseline needs to come up some.
Finally there's PvP. With the hefty reduction on Mortal Strike and the loss of Bladestorm as a reliable finisher (since the second you use it you're going to lose your weapons) arms in PvP will need a significant new way to get actual damage applied to a target. There's just no way around it: without the ability to make every point of damage count double thanks to MS, arms is weak in PvP. (Note: I am not saying that arms is currently weak in PvP, but that it is overly reliant on that big undispellable 50% healing reduction, and without that, yes, arms will be weak indeed in PvP.) Arms requires a significant, potent, and reliable burst of damage to make up for what it is losing.
Frankly, I expect warriors to be very undertuned through the first few months of Cataclysm. Eventually I believe they'll be adjusted upwards to compensate for the various advantages they're losing, and I'm optimistic that the beta might actually provide enough hard information to get those fixes in sooner rather than later. With the overperforming counterbalancing abilities either removed or reduced/rebalanced, the basic undertuning will show through and will be redressed.
Filed under: Warrior, (Warrior) The Care and Feeding of Warriors, Cataclysm







Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Stevey Apr 30th 2010 8:16PM
My warrior feels your pain,
Just think on the bright side; At least when you rolled your first character, you did't choose a Warlock.
Joke:
What do Rogues and Noobs have in common?
A: they both pick Locks! haha!
Xuahn May 4th 2010 11:06AM
I would like to see a mechanic put in for war like they did for dk.
I was thinking you give you give war a base ability to generate rage, like dk has IT and talents that increase RP gen for certian strikes ala chill of the grave.
Maybe a talent that causes a staple ability generate rage instead of using it. Like maybe make TC(just an example) generate 5 rage instead of cost rage, If they did that in combination with shouts generating rage, i think it would go a long way to fixing low rage situations.
Give us a new strike that's sole purpose it to generate rage in low rage gen fights.
Just pitching ideas
Ramesh Apr 30th 2010 8:19PM
LoL. Undertuned? Guess someone needs to go look up WoL logs on ICC fights (of which the majority are single target) before using our current template to project the state of warriors come Cata. Blizz has said this multiple times, if a class is under performing in a raid environment changes will be made to address it, so doing guess work on what warriors will be like in Cata based on our current rage mechanics and WW/Heroic strike is anecdotal at best.
Classic case of "sky is falling!" when actually a bird flying over just took a dump on you. Blizz will send you a towel to clean it up.
Matthew Rossi Apr 30th 2010 9:45PM
WoL logs only prove my point, actually.
Warrior single target fights where the warriors do well are based entirely on limitless rage (the other aspect of warrior DPS scaling I mentioned here) and are also based on the top 200 - ie the best geared, best skilled warriors in absolutely perfect conditions.
Without the gimmick of endless rage, warriors perform poorly. The top 200 are outliers, they're not representative of the class.
Ramesh Apr 30th 2010 10:18PM
Completely agree with your response on the part that the current Warrior is balanced around limitless rage. Its just that, "under current settings". Another example would be DK's rune system overhaul to a pseudo-energy bar x6 will completely change how their DPS/tanking rotations are handled. At present DKs are often GCD capped when calculating maximum potential DPS, this completely changes come Cata but if we apply the current rules of DK DPS to the change it comes across as a HUGE dps loss. Parallels can be drawn to the rage normalization that warriors will undergo and the change to heroic strike albeit from a different POV.
As for the claim that warriors in the top 200 are in "perfect conditions", I'll concede that maybe the top 20-30 can be classified as such (getting chain TotT/hysteria/etc) but outside of that I don't think a valid claim can be made. As for these 200 logs being "Outliers", than we're just talking semantics here. Min-maxing or obsessing over DPS has no real meaning outside of a raid environment. I hardly think warriors or any other class for that matter will be the loose wheel in a 5man dungeon to the point where success hinges on said player doing 5k or 10k dps. If the current trend continues I cant see heroic 5mans being the cutting edge of content for even the casual player.
Applying existing parameters to Cata's possible class performance is flawed, because I doubt any class will "play"/feel the same once the trees have been overhauled. Don't get me wrong, you are doing a great job with the column and I am a big fan but it feels like your emotions might be clouding your judgement here and if you took a step back and saw the big picture you'll come to realize we don't have enough facts to come to an informed judgement just yet.
/Good day Sir
Elmouth Apr 30th 2010 11:59PM
Oh Ramesh you can take your sky is falling comment and shove it up, he's just expressing concerns that most of the community has anyway.
Go try to prove yourself somewhere else.
/Good day.
Alaskan May 1st 2010 7:42AM
Ramesh do us a favour and shut the hell up.
Shrike May 1st 2010 1:01PM
"As for the claim that warriors in the top 200 are in "perfect conditions", I'll concede that maybe the top 20-30 can be classified as such (getting chain TotT/hysteria/etc) but outside of that I don't think a valid claim can be made."
You'd be wrong.
As the class whose effectiveness varies the most with gear, the warrior curve goes a *lot* farther than that of other classes, meaning we have a much larger set of outliers than other classes do.
busuan Apr 30th 2010 8:22PM
Ramaladni must have scared Blizz team so much that now they dare only tune Warrior downward.
Blue-tounge May 1st 2010 2:41PM
Isn't it Indalamar?
Drizz Apr 30th 2010 8:24PM
/agree
As a tank, I honestly had ALL of the same feelings when I read the changes for warriors... especially when I heard that rage would be "normalized" and that sunders would no longer stack to five. I too have serious doubts that Vengeance will compensate for the undertuning of warriors. For tanks the first step of the solution seems pretty simple though - simply remove the antiquated "lowered damage" part of the defensive stance. Although it probably won't fix all our problems, it will likely put us a step closer to being able to hang with the other tanking classes.
prenden2 Apr 30th 2010 8:26PM
Matt, you don't need a rival. Queen wrote the Highlander song for YOU.
I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings.
I have no rival, no man can be my equal
Take me to the future of your world.
Redielin Apr 30th 2010 8:47PM
I think you need to go play a few more classes. Every class has a 'weakness' as far as DPS goes: on my Shadowpriest, I feel similar to how you feel. Sure, I can wreck the meters on add fights with multidots and mind sear, especially in movement fights or fights with air phases (BQL and Sindragosa come to mind) but on single target, I have to do my very best or fall behind. Whereas, my rogue is amazing on single targets, and so is my arcane mage. My mage and warrior have low to no rampup time (at least beyond stacking AB or building rage), whereas my Shadow Priest has massive rampup time, and even my Mutilate rogue really needs a few seconds to get poisons rolling. Really, when I become frustrated, I look to the inherent strengths of each DPS class.
Every class has these strengths. DOT classes are good at movement. Most Plate DPS and Nuke casters have comparatively low ramp-up times. Ranged classes get an added -20% threat, and have a much easier time maintaining 100% uptime on the target. They are also able to more easily dodge fight mechanics without completely stopping DPS. Self-healing classes have high survivability. I think the trick is to assume your class will do as much DPS as everyone else (if it really is not the case, so much so that you are being sat, Blizzard will buff you, and you have to admit that Warrior DPS has sat on the VERY high side for most of the history of WOW), and then ask yourself "what are those little perks of the warrior class?"
Sunder is not, and hasn't been. In fact, buffs are more of a burden. You don't want to be the jerk who's only brought for buffs. Sunder is a chore, not a perk.
Losing MS in PVP is one of the best things they've ever done, and I say that as a Warrior PVP player. It means several things - they don't need to balance healing around MS anymore, you don't need to balance comps around MS anymore (which means you could put say a warrior and a hunter or a rogue in the same group if you liked without really losing all that much), but most of all it means, if warriors fall behind because they are missing MS, they will be compensated. Most likely not in direct damage, because they do a lot of direct damage that they can unload all at once already. But I think you are right in that arms leans on MS too much currently, and will need some sort of utility compensation for it.
Making WW a true AE ability will allow them to give us more balanced single target DPS, and make fights like Saurfang less annoying.
Now if we want to talk about warrior deficiencies. Only real deficiencies of the class is pretty much the amount of damage they take, especially from magic, and the amount of PVE threat they generate. They need some sort of threat dump, and they need some way of dealing with magic damage to a degree.
If I were in charge, I'd put some talents in deep fury that expand its self healing to near shadowpriest levels. Turn them into a poor man's blood DK, especially now that Blood DKS are going to be tanks, exclusively. I think that would fit most thematically with the Fury tree.
While we're talking about DPS trees, I would love to see Arms get some PVE love (again they have much more freedom to do this now that MS isn't an Albatross hanging around the spec's neck). Personally, I'd like to see the spec focus a little more on DOT damage, along with the 'soldierly' aspect. I'm not sure exactly what would say 'soldierly', except perhaps a new spec specific shout perhaps, or some sort of weapon-based ability. Perhaps a second disarm? Or a lower cooldown on the first?
JBcani Apr 30th 2010 8:47PM
Under-tuned through out the first few months of cataclysm or the beginning of the beta?
Daniel Apr 30th 2010 8:59PM
I don't agree with your conclusion. The Crab has mentioned more than once in the past year about how Warriors are overrepresented in raiding guilds as tanks and bears are underrepresented. I suspect that there is a deliberate, although sly, effort to make sure that that Cata gives bears and other tanks a chance to catch up. I think how fast they fix warriors is going to depend to a large extent on how players react to the changes. I certainly think the goal is to make warriors less appealing (which is not the same thing as unappealing).
CaryEverett Apr 30th 2010 9:54PM
I don't see how it is reasonable to punish players simply because they've been playing a tank since Vanilla.
Warriors outnumber the other 3 tanks because the other three tanks were not tanks in Vanilla (and in the case of Death Knights, not in Burning Crusade either).
DecoyTPH Apr 30th 2010 10:50PM
I can't find the actual post I'm looking for just now but basically Zarko in the Tanking forums has been doing polling of tanking representation. Like serious, statistical tracking of tank representation population.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=24401521630&postId=243994702082&sid=1#557 (not the perfect post but I can't find the actual one with the numbers in it).
If anything, Blizzard might need to begin doing the opposite of what they've done for the duration of Warth; buff Warriors (dps and/or hp/eh/survivability) above and beyond the other classes. Warrior tanking population is, for the first time since the game launched over 5 years ago, lower than Paladins and on certain fights, Druids. DKs have also seen a resurgence since the 3.3.3 buffs.
Also agree with the above poster. I didn't begin playing wow until the tail-end of Burning Crusade but for the past ~ 18 months, it feels as though I've been punished for something I had no hand in. I wasn't a tank during Vanilla (or most of BC) and yet the class I chose to play has had it's representation intentionally driven down via a relative weakness in comparison to the other tanks (Bears and Paladins in particular).
Manadar May 1st 2010 6:58AM
Also warrior tanking is 10 times more fun then feral tanking, where all abilities just do damage and increase the damage of other abilities. No disarm, silence, good interrupt or challenge. We don't scale well with threat either.
Seriously, after getting my alt dual spec I feel even more bored tanking with my main feral. And in Cata we'll get another ability that just do damage and apply a bleed.
That's why there are so few bears.
Hih Apr 30th 2010 9:07PM
It's absolutely ridiculous that you're asking for buffs for Cataclysm when we haven't even seen the god damned alpha yet. "You're trying to get a class buffed you haven't even played yet." taking a GC quote and replacing two words.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=24401480001&pageNo=1&sid=1#19
Classes have never been as balanced as they are now. What the hell makes you think they're just going to shit on warriors and say "oh sorry, we decided we didn't like warriors anymore. You can go ahead and reroll now."
Matthew Rossi Apr 30th 2010 9:51PM
You don't read very well.