The shape of raids to come: Guild leaders look ahead
by Lisa Poisso 
May 3rd 2010 at 5:00PM
Competition: A good thing
The issue my guild will be facing will be the unified lockout each week. While it makes sense to only kill each boss once per lockout, regardless of raid size, my guild has been running two or three 10-man raids in addition to our 25-man raid group. This allowed a higher flow of gear and emblems and allowed the 25-man raid group to gear up at a considerably faster rate than if we could only run one size of the raid each week.
This will most likely make us require our raiders to "put up or shut up," letting only the top 25 performers into the 25-man lockout for increased valor points and more chances at loot. The remaining raiders will be designated to the 10-man version, where they will most likely have to run more daily heroics in order to gear up at the same rate as the rest of the guild. Each week the rosters will churn a little bit, allowing players to experience both versions of the encounters amd also creating some healthy competition for the "more valuable" 25-man spots. -- Scott Carson
Teams structured for success
The proposed changes to raid lockouts and raid content for Cataclysm, coupled with the expected changes to the in-game guild management and bank tools, are giving my guild a great opportunity to reshape ourselves for success. While the "loss" of a lockout (you can have 10-man or 25-, but not both) is somewhat limiting, there are other opportunities to make the guild more, not less.
We are planning to begin immediately to recruit and train a solid, committed 10-man team with the goal of clearing ICC (with some heroic modes) before Ruby Sanctum hits. We will use that content to fine tune the team and use our success to recruit a second team. Once Cataclysm hits, we will hit the beaches in 3- to 5-man teams to level up, using the 5-man instances to accelerate the process. We will begin to recruit team 3, as well as starting to collect guild patterns, recipes and cuts. We'll use those to more tightly bind ourselves together and be racing for the first raid instance as soon as possible. You'll know who we are by looking for the best Alliance guild on US Suramar. And we can hardly wait. -- Bob James
I'm Naara, shadow priest from the Ravenholdt server and current officer and raid leader of <August Muse>. Personally, I'm looking forward to expanding and have a more normalized roster . To be honest, forming 25-man raids is a pain in the ass. They are impersonal, it's harder to fix issues if they involve more than one person, and it's a hassle to make sure those same 25 people log on for two to three days.
Often, if people find they are not getting that nice 264 loot, they move on to the larger raiding guild. This only hurts, as it makes it then even harder to form 25s when you've lost talent. In Cataclysm, I can hold onto raiders, as now they can focus on what makes my guild special and not whether they can run 25-mans. Along with the guild achievement system, I think the guilds that are focused on being a guild first and a raiding party second will begin to edge out guilds that primarily focus on the raid. If all loot is relative, people will start to ask, "Why am I here?" and " Do I actually like the person next to me?" -- Matt T.
The connection between loot and morale
An explosion is heard in the distance. Something has happened to change the world, and it wasn't a volcano eruption in the Northern Hemisphere that delayed flights. The cataclysmic change was to the raiding scene on Azeroth. I am the raid leader of a guild on US Bleeding Hollow. We raid 25-man content two nights a week. It has a semi-hardcore, casual feel. We run 10-mans as well. Our philosophy is RL > Warcraft.
I am pretty optimistic about this change -- but as a raid leader, I am cautious about it. We are currently having trouble getting members to show up on progression night. We might have to shift to running 10-mans if this doesn't change when Cataclysm hits. The one issue that sticks out is keeping guild morale up and keeping away from getting too cliquey. We run 25-mans to get everyone in the guild to participate, to get away from the A-team/B-team issue. It feels epic when we down a boss and everyone in the guild was involved. Sadly, loot plays a part in our running 25-mans, as evident in lower numbers on progression night. With that incentive gone, we are most likely going to start running 10-mans, and that epic feeling of guild accomplishment will be gone. It's cool to see one group kill the Lich King -- but if you are not part of that group, you feel left out.
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Filed under: Guilds, Raiding, Cataclysm, Guest Posts
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Rekkla May 3rd 2010 5:33PM
I'm intrigued about the effect this will have on guilds with 15-18 reliable and talented folks, who have a dedication and skill-level disparity with the remaining 7-10+ people that compose their raiding roster.
For many in that position, the path to the fastest progress and the best gear, will be to whittle down to 1 or 2 10-man 'A teams', and then just find whatever way you can to make the others feel as involved as possible.
Let's say the 10mans drop 2 pieces per boss, while the 25s drop 6 in a 6-boss instance. For some guilds, the 25man you put together might get stuck on boss three for weeks but a 10man 'A Team' can just destroy the place on Week 1. So that's 12 drops for the 25man group and 12 for the 10. 12/25 = .48, 12/10 = 1.2. This is not to mention the satisfaction of getting the content down at the level you're capable of and not having to wait for others to 'get it'.
Granted, that's an extreme scenario, but I can assure you that many such scenarios are playing out in such guilds where the gap between skill and attendance b/t the top 10-15 is so vastly different from the bottom 10-15.
I've seen this happen so many times. One guild on my realm is 6/12 on IC10 hardmodes and is only 9/12 on IC25 regular. This guild should be right at the top of the progress leaderboards, they're as talented and hardworking as they come, but the bottom part of their guild just kills them. I'm sure they'll make this calculation and involve the bottom part of their guild much less and go for this new path of least resistance. And why shouldn't they?
How fun is it for their top players to drag around others who have that kind of disparity in skill/dedication?
We have a situation not as extreme as the other guild, but I still see the disparity now matter how hard we tried to recruit to eliminate it. Right now, my guild does 25s primarily and 10s on the side.
I'm strongly considering pushing for making it the other way around and getting 4 of my most reliable people to be tanks, 6 of my most reliable people to heal. Maybe 2-4 dps'ers who can offset those roles and go with 2 10man 'a-teams'. Save 25mans for when we're farming.
And why not?
nieboh May 3rd 2010 6:16PM
I agree with you and more! With the loot being the same in 10 and 25 man, not only do you have the same number of pieces that drop in a 25 man stuck on 3 bosses and a 10 man completing all 6, but usually the end bosses have better loot, so the gear is better quality. I'm anticipating a lot fewer 25 man runs and a lot more "core" 10s.
nickerz_24 May 3rd 2010 6:33PM
One thing to remember though is that (one of) the reasons guilds today progress so much further in 10m content than 25m is that they're usually doing so wearing 264 gear rather than 251. I know it is only half a tier but it can make a significant difference.
Rekkla May 3rd 2010 6:41PM
@ nickerz,
Oh, that's absolutely true. But I just don't see how the ability to trim dead weight won't do leaps and bounds for many guilds.
I think many will make the conclusion that they'll clear the new Cata raids much, much faster on 10man and thereby get easier access to hardmodes and that extra half-tier you refer to in the form of hardmode gear.
They can ramp up the difficulty of 10mans to be in tune with 25s, but they can't change the efficiency people will gain from trimming down to their 'core.' Unless they make 10s disproportionately more difficult, but I don't see them doing that.
clevins May 3rd 2010 5:56PM
"Each week the rosters will churn a little bit, allowing players to experience both versions of the encounters amd also creating some healthy competition for the "more valuable" 25-man spots."
/headdesk.... I'm SO sick of the '25s are real raids, 10s are less' and this is old thinking. 10s are just as valuable as 25 person raids in Cata unless you're talking epic feel.
There's much discussion and worry about A team vs B team... but let's be honest here - if the B team is just as good as the A team there will be minimal difference in progression. If they're not as good then is the B team really arguing that the guild should run 25s so that they can be carried and hold back the better players?
The one place where A/B splits can hurt is at the start of the xpac where a few people race to level cap and raid while others are a couple weeks behind. In That case, yes, I think the more geared players need to burn a few resets to catch people up and you might need to do this 2 or 3 times... but once people have roughly equivalent gear, the B team needs to really think about what they're saying when they argue that they can't progress as fast as the A team... because what they're saying is "Please sacrifice your progression, week in and week out, because we're not as good as you. Please carry us."
Kuro May 3rd 2010 6:20PM
"There's much discussion and worry about A team vs B team... but let's be honest here - if the B team is just as good as the A team there will be minimal difference in progression"
Not really. Logistics of 25 mans are usually 2.5 tanks, 5.5 healers. 10 mans are 2 tanks 2.5 healers.
A team gets MT and OT for 10 mans. MT and OT want to run together because they're used to cordinating with one another because they do it closely in 25's. B-team gets....? DPS w/tank OS who's third in line for gear? And....?
I've been on both ends of the issue. Being forced into groups with under-geared people or players who didn't just stand inf fires.. they had pick-nicks in the and I've been in the A-team.
DeathPaladin May 3rd 2010 6:23PM
The 25 slots may still be considered the more valuable of the two depending on reward for time spent.
For example, if you can deck out your main in full tier 11 after 1 month of running the introductory 25 raids, or 1 month of running 10s plus a random heroic every day, would you still consider the 10-man slot to be equivalent to the 25? Because it'll take more work to get the same reward on 10s.
clevins May 3rd 2010 6:45PM
@kuro - that's a different problem though. That's a "we don't have enough of the right people to field two teams" issue and one that I know well. It IS a problem... but in that case the issue is either to recruit or gear people so that you have the 4 tanks, 5or 6 healers that you need for Cata or to jump up to 25s.
What I'm saying is that, in the cases where you DO have two groups of 2 tanks, 3 healers, 5 dps the only reason for the B team to be worse is because either of gear or skill. The gearing reason is easy to see at the start of an xpac when some people race to cap while others don't. If the people who race up spend a bit of time when the second set of people is at cap that solves itself pretty fast. Once the gear is roughly the same, though, the B team should be close to the A team *if they're as good*.
However, if the B team isn't as good with roughly the same gear, they're asking people to hang back and carry them. It's one thing to say "hey, you raced to cap, hang back for a week or two and help the second group gear so we have two solid groups" but it's very different to say "Hey, accept less progression week in and week out so that people who aren't as good as you can progress."
Gothia May 4th 2010 3:38AM
We are currently running a 25 man and 3-4 10 mans a week trying to down Lk while getting the guild geared up. Yes, it is our responsibility to gear the guild. Loot should be based on what is good for the guild and not what an individual wants. The reason why people feel like they need to carry people (dead weight) is a guild leadership issue because they have not taken care of their people.
I can see in the future that we will not run 25's because frankly they are a pain in the ass, but I can see us running up to 3-6 10's per week depending on availablily.
Does anyone else see that they are going to need many more raid leaders for Cataclysm?
andyjay220 May 3rd 2010 5:57PM
It is for all the reasons listed above that I am excited for the change. It may come with some limitations, but I am more interested in seeing the game move away from a huge epeen waving gearfest into a guild mentality where people care who they play with rather than what it gets them.
As a long time guild leader and raid leader, I don't care if this prevents some level of "rising above" other raiders. I think the game is more fun when I can focus our guild on running content and having fun.
MIkeHaas May 3rd 2010 5:59PM
Quick question, what server/guild did the opening picture come from? the one in AQ?
PirateHunter May 3rd 2010 6:03PM
For someone in a smaller guild, the changes will actually help us. We have people leave cause we don't do 25man content and they don't like pugging it (lets face it, no-one does), and they want higher level gear. Having the same gear drop in both means we don't get penalised for being smaller, and we are more likely to retain our 'core' players as they can get the same gear in a 10man and have less competition for it.
The shared lockout will actually reduce raiding time too - no having to run 10man & pug 25man in a week. Frees time up for progression and doing other things, and helps the altaholics too.
Fierna May 3rd 2010 7:27PM
I like your positive spin on the upcoming changes. Knowing that guild management and raid management will be a lot easier in Cataclysm does improve my outlook on teh expansion. Happy Raid leaders make for happy raids.
Also, I like that raids will be composed of the people who most want to be there and not just people who feel they have to do 25's (or 10's) in order to improve their character.
Yada May 3rd 2010 7:37PM
I don't think it's too hard to see that the coming raid changes fit hand in glove with Blizzard's continuing campaign to open all of the content of Warcraft to all players. The bigger the raid, the fewer the guilds that can effectively run it. As long as 25p raids granted better lootz than 10p raids, the prodding was there for players to yearn for a slot in a successful 25p guild. With the boss-based lockout replacing the raid-size-based lockout, and common drops between versions, there will no longer be that strong motivation to abandon a smaller guild for a more hard-core one. In turn, that means more successful smaller guilds who are able to field a solid 10p group but who would be hard-put to field a 25p. As far as I'm concerned, these are all winning changes, and I don't think you need a crystal ball to predict a lot more players overall winning their way through the new content long before it's pre-patch nerfed.
Skarn May 3rd 2010 7:53PM
"my guild has been running two or three 10-man raids in addition to our 25-man raid group. This allowed a higher flow of gear and emblems and allowed the 25-man raid group to gear up at a considerably faster rate than if we could only run one size of the raid each week."
I'm sick of statements like this one. One of the main points of the new raid lockout system is to specifically DISCOURAGE running the instance multiple times per week. One of the tiring things of Wrath was running the 25 and 10 because you "NEEDED" the emblems. It caused a lot of burnout and made the encounters dull and repetitive from seeing them too much. It's better to take some time off and do other things. It really, really is.
Darkseid May 4th 2010 12:24PM
Agreed, its better to take some time off, but most of us are adults. Why should Blizzard have to be responsible for "saving" people from themselves. Even now, if people don't want to run both 10 and 25, they don't HAVE to. They say they have to, but no....they don't. You HAVE to eat....you HAVE to sleep....you HAVE to go the bathroom...you don't HAVE to do anything in WoW.
And much like your sick of that other statement, I'm sick of people acting like right now, they HAVE to run both, they HAVE to get more and more emblems, they HAVE to play every night. ITS A GAME! You don't HAVE to do any of that. But people want to, so they can show off that sparkly new gear to all the people in Dalaran who really don't care that you have it anyway.
Do you really think that this small change to raiding is going to stop burnout? Really...seriously....you believe that? Burnout happens when people can't draw a line between enough and too much. And you think taking away one lock out is going to change that? People will simply play their alts through the 10s or 25s, or level more alts, or something else. Either that, or they'll just sit around complaining about how bored they are cause they only get one lock out with their main.
But one thing this change wont do is suddenly stop people from feeling like that HAVE to play. They feel that way now cause their priorities are screwed up with real life, and a raid change isn't going to fix that.
Pheras May 3rd 2010 8:11PM
To be honest, the thing that will happen more and more due to the valor point cap is that people will have more "alts" that act like mains. Blizzard knows that they're reaching a steady-state of new players vs. old players leaving and part of Cataclysm is to make levelling an alt fun and interesting... even for those of us with 4 level 80s already.
Thus the point is to make lots of guilds have multiple 25-man raids. The people who currently run on one character ICC-10 and ICC-25 once each per week will be forced to run one character through Raid X-25 and another character through either the same raid or the 10-man version. The point is that you'll cease to have just alts and a main and that you'll have many mains who all could be viable for raid time. Hell, one you might do 25-mans on, one you do 10-mans on, and if that tops out your valor points, a third character who you do dailies with.
Bobfish May 3rd 2010 8:27PM
@Skarn
I agree with your view about encounters becoming dull with repetition, but do you really think Blizzard are making this change to discourage people from running encounters multiple times?
It's a refresher of the carrot an stick mentality of the game, i.e. loots is all, that keeps those millions of people subbing, the idea that a superduper upgrade will drop soon. I suspect that now that 10 and 25 man will be the same the loot tables themselves will be very large, back to the vanilla days, thus requiring some people a substantial amount of time to get items to move to the next tier or raids. Yes they'll be badges but they'll always be things in raids people will need to move on..
In some situations it might work out well for certain guilds, smaller ones I suspect and you may think it's a 'fair' change, but I reckon you will all get very bored having to run 'CataclysmRaid/Entry Level', for the 9th time in as many weeks because your 'hunter/mage/whatever', 'staff/gun/flamingmonkey', won't drop and this time, you never know :D
clevins May 4th 2010 11:25AM
Yes, they are very obviously doing this to discourage running the same raid multiple times - that's the main effect of the shared raid lockout.
Remember, Blizz wants people to keep playing month in and month out, but they DON'T care how much you play per month. If you want to play tons, cool. If you feel you NEED to and burnout and cancel your subscription until Cata (or forever).... that's not what they want.
kebosangar May 3rd 2010 11:17PM
This got me thinking. Is it possible that we can change raid size while raiding a dungeon? Just say we're doing ICC and there weren't enough people for 25 man so we do a 10 man. After killing marrowgar, turns out the late commers are in and then we do deathwhisper for 25 man.
Basically each dungeon we can kill each boss with different raid size!