The 25 most evil achievements finale, part 2

2. School of Hard Knocks
The hatred for this achievement is well-known and, in my opinion, well-deserved.
I try to take a measured approach to everything on this blog. Even if I don't agree with Blizzard, I'll make the effort to understand how and why they arrived at a decision. Sometimes I've gotten it right, and sometimes (perhaps more often) I haven't. Any reasonable player will admit that their love of a character is ultimately a very small part of a very big game, and developers have the unenviable task of reconciling player desires with the necessary limitations imposed by game balance. Whenever I look at the forums, I wonder if people like Nethaera and Ancilorn go to work every day expecting themselves to be the sole voice of unhappy sanity in a thread, and I fully expect Ghostcrawler to snap before Cataclysm, disappear and turn up six months later adopted into a pod of Monterey Bay seals.
So I don't say this insultingly, but boy, do I mean it: there's no defensible reason for this achievement to exist.
None.
It makes PvE players miserable. It makes PvP players miserable. It's a perverse incentive against teamwork, it turns battlegrounds into a mess for the length of Children's Week and it's the worst possible way to encourage any tentative or frightened player to try PvP. Anyone trying to do it might as well have a giant bull's-eye painted on them, for all the griefing and bullying it tends to attract, and I have a very serious problem with players being forced into such a vulnerable position in pursuit of What A Long, Strange Trip It's Been. For many players, that's the only way they're ever going to get a 310% mount without having to shell out for it at 85, and having to wade into an ocean of malicious "teammates" and opportunistic enemies to get it frankly sucks.
I am at a loss to understand how this achievement was supposed to be fun, or what it was intended to accomplish other than being an amazingly cruel barrier to completion of the year-long meta. Over the past week, I've seen the following:
- Paladins casting Hand of Protection on their own teammates to force them into dropping a flag.
- Arena gods grabbing the EotS flag, parking themselves in a distant corner of the battlefield and enjoying the eruption of pleading in /bg chat.
- Healers refusing to heal their teammates in the hopes that they'd die and the healer could then cap a tower or node.
- Rogues Sapping players at the last moment before they could cap or defend a node (orphans clearly visible at the sides of the players in question) and doing it over and over and over ...
- Players hanging back while others rushed into AV towers to cap, then capping while the others were being damaged by the archers and unable to get a full cast off.
- ICC-geared DPS two- or three-shotting enemy players in blues who were /pointing at their orphans and emoting /beg.
Enough already. Remove School of Hard Knocks from the meta, or remove it from the game entirely.
1. Insane in the Membrane
This is it.
Insane in the Membrane is the granddaddy, prime mover, and ne plus ultra of all truly evil achievements.
These are the worst, most soul-destroying reputation grinds in the game, and the developers even admitted it. They're all factions that Blizzard never really intended anyone to grind in the first place, and then -- post-drunken board meeting, I can only assume -- they decided to add a Feat of Strength to it for anyone crazy enough to do it. It comes with the additional evil touch of Steamwheedle and Bloodsail rep being zero-sum; anybody who manages the long slog to Honored with the pirates is then obliged to work from the bottom of the Hated barrel with the goblins, and vice versa. Each and every single one of these grinds is painful, expensive, annoying, time-consuming and guaranteed to have you in shivering in the corner of a mental institution within the space of a few days:
- Everlook, Ratchet, Gadgetzan and Booty Bay Once you've exhausted their quest offerings, you've got two choices and neither is attractive: grind low-level mobs for days on end, or grind Dire Maul north for an equally long time hoping you get a dropped key each run to free Knot Thimblejack.
- Darkmoon Faire You'll run out of relatively easy turn-ins for the Faire pretty quickly, and after that? Better hope you (or your server's scribes) feel up to the task of providing more than a hundred Darkmoon decks. Oh, and the Darkmoon Faire isn't actually available most of the time, either. If you can't manage to get your hands on enough decks while they're around for the first part of every month, congratulations! You get to wait another month!
- Shendralar This reclusive sect of the Highborne has had, until recently, no desire to make contact with the outside world, and it shows. You get one non-repeatable class quest and one dungeon quest, and that's it. Afterwards, it's nothing but painful, expensive libram turn-ins and -- this gets better -- you can't hold more than one of the same libram simultaneously. Did one Libram of Focus drop for you? You can't pick up another one until you've somehow dumped the first. Get the librams and turn-in items, run to Dire Maul, hand them in, run to the nearest mailbox if you're not an engineer (bonus points if you're Alliance and have to wait for the ferry to Feathermoon Stronghold each time!), get more librams and items off an alt, run back to Dire Maul, lather, rinse, repeat and go completely off your nut.
- Ravenholdt There's no way to increase Ravenholdt reputation unless you can get a steady supply of lockboxes. How do you get lockboxes, you ask? Pickpocketing. Hey, wait -- aren't rogues the only class that can pickpocket? Bingo. Legions of players have leveled a rogue to do nothing other than farm lockboxes for their mains, which means the added frustration of leveling an extra character on top of the long and boring slog through high 50s mobs for the boxes themselves.
- Bloodsail Buccaneers I'm not sure this one requires elaboration. Farming Bloodsail reputation requires tanking your rep with the Steamwheedle goblins, who -- as you may have noticed -- run an awful lot of towns and flight paths around the world. In return for you inability to travel to any goblin town without being attacked on sight, the pirates will give you ... a costume? Seriously? SERIOUSLY? That's it? What the hell made that horrible grind worth it? Nothing, that's what. That's why they call you The Insane.
Working on achievements? The Overachiever is here to help! We've covered everything from Glory of the Hero and Insane in the Membrane to Master of Alterac Valley and Lil' Game Hunter, and you can count on us to guide you through holidays and Azeroth's special events.
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Reader Comments (Page 6 of 7)
Toothy May 7th 2010 12:45AM
Managed to finish SoHK yesterday. I don't PvP, I generally play solo to be honest, so I have even less time playing with anyone period. After reading all the posts, I was dreading this, generally only going into BG for specific achievements. Ran through Cynwise' stuff to prep, then dove in.
6 WG/2AV/6EoS/14AB to get this, and what I found on looking back is this. First - throw out the BGs where opposition is assisting - those are strictly RNG events, and how I got AV (1 in 28 for me). When did it work? when we went for the win and won big. This made me think there is a little logic in Blizzard's thinking here. Think about it it minute.
WG, the win came when we all went to our flag room and wailed on anyone who came in, after they touched the flag of course! Whole party got the achieve in 3-4 minutes. After that a Pally/Druid/Rogue looped back whenever they came at us - 3 flags in 4 tries and a pile of whoopass fun.
EoS, went at it seriously, took 3 bases, camped the graveyards to keep their population low and let a couple through to the other base on their side, and kept taking turns caping it.
AB, kicked my butt, Last group, EVERYBODY stayed together, worked their way around in circles. By the time we all got it, (6-7 minutes) the allies were all over the place, so we were able to take them in pieces
AV, cant say, ran into nice lady who stood watch while I capped, then I returned the favor for her friends.
So, from my experience, if the PvPers aren't childish, and the team focuses on dominating, you have the ability to control who and how the caps go down. Everybody's happy - PvPers get to pwn, achievers get to achieve, then you all get to go kick butt, and win the BG.
Smashbolt May 7th 2010 9:31AM
^This. So very this.
The reason SOHK is such a problem is exactly the reason that BGs have a problem in the first place: everyone plays BGs as a solo endeavour. Nobody's working together, so capping any objectives must be done solo, and yes, in PvE gear that is difficult to impossible. You wouldn't try to run ahead of your group and solo Ymiron, would you?
I had the same experience as Toothy. Last year when I did SOHK, I recognized all of the requirements as part of regular BG strategy and capped all of my objectives as part of proper BG play. In every case, when I got the objective I needed, I also won that BG.
Read up for 10 minutes on how the BG works, then during the pre-game, if a strat is being discussed, say how you can help and mention that you would like to cap an objective *as part of that strategy*. If a strat isn't being discussed, odds are nobody's got one and the BG is likely to be chaotic fail anyway, so bring one up and it could mean you get your objective AND you win the BG.
All else fails, build a premade in-guild or from trade chat *specifically* to cheese the objectives. At least then you can all agree to throw the BG in the name of the achievement.
SOHK wasn't designed poorly by Blizzard. It was made to try and encourage teamwork in BGs and get fewer people blitzing AV, fighting on roads, or ignoring the flags. If it isn't working, it's because the players are selfish idiots who are only in it for themselves - both the regular PvPers and the non-PvPers alike.
Xhris May 7th 2010 4:09AM
As a moderately-geared PvP player 3/4 of SoHK wasn't that hard. I play a feral druid (cat) and had about 300 resilience and mostly ToC 10/25 gear with a few ICC pieces.
- AB was the easiest, plenty of opportunities to cap a flag.
- EotS was another easy one, I was the 3rd or 4th player to grab a flag. Pulled out my orphan just before capping so people wouldn't grief.
- Took 3 WSG matches to get to return a flag because there were a few griefers before that, in the end had to play defense with a few others who needed the achieve and was the fastest clicker I guess.
- As for AV, some Hordes and Allies worked together at IWB by capping/recapping so everyone would get their achieve. Guess I was lucky to have that happen but my battlegroup has nice people like that.
nanon May 7th 2010 4:27AM
About SohK: Nice resumé off all the things being said on the official wow forums. In europe we're still waiting for a blues replie, that's probably never going to come.
On more thing I'd like to mention, one week is already very short to do this for someone with limited playing time. If you had the chance to do it on Sunday you've probably had a good chance completing it. I started on thursday, and waited hours in queue for AV, after that I had to log without even getting into one BG. So on top of everything you mentioned, it seems like impossible to complete within a week, unless you can play 24 / 7. And I thought world events was more or less created to give casual players a shot at a 310% mount.
A solution would be if we could complete this outside of childrens week, (as is the case with some other world event achievements), and be able to use our Oracle or Frenzyheart orphan instead.
TR May 7th 2010 4:58AM
Seriously! It's as if Blizzard had an inter-group meeting (y'know one of those where no one really cares what the other groups really do; they just want show a good face then get back to that awesome new content they're working on) to come up with ideas for What A Long Strange Trip It's Been. The other groups, not really knowing what went into the design behind each battleground, came up with what they "heard" was the goal of each bg, and left it at that. It's like showing someone WoW for the first time, and they think all they have to do is become an elf or a wizard and kill some dragons and orcs.
For example, Cap the Flag in EotS. That's all well and good except you have to have secure and /keep/ a base in order to cap the flag in the first place. Nevermind the fact that the key to winning the bg is having the majority of bases; capping the flag is just icing on the cake. As one commenter noted, everyone was standing around flag spawn point, waiting to grab the flag from ANYONE but there was no place to cap it. Doh!
TR May 7th 2010 5:03AM
This was supposed to be a reply to Ian's post, "Guys, I think that SoHK is there not only because it's difficult, but because it's badly designed."
I guess the Reply link was on selective fail again.
vaarsej May 7th 2010 6:49AM
bloodsail is actually pretty easy to get if you have a team. Now grinding the Ravenholdt without a rogue alt is sickening. If someone else on the server is doing it, you'll either have to offer more or queue up.
Symas May 7th 2010 7:21AM
I don't know if this will make me sound truly insane but I wish there were more achievements/feats of strength like this. Because of the odd hours I play and the necessity for frequent AFKs while playing I’ll never be able to raid so things like this are the only “hard mode” for me. I was lucky in that I had a rogue high enough for the pick-pocketing and a scribe to make endless cards. Now the only thing left until Cataclysm is to see how far I can get soloing instances. Here’s for a new one, The Dementedly Deranged!
Carson May 7th 2010 7:36AM
I personally found School of Hard Knocks (a) easy and (b) hilarious.
Jay May 7th 2010 8:44AM
I **loathe** PvP with an intense passion. I hate it in practice: as a cloth healer who isn't good at it, "pvp" translates to "constant graveyard runs". I hate it in lore: I'm a fricken healer! I'm there to save lives, not end them over some irrelevant valley somewhere in the old world. (If I wanted to disable then murder players, I'd have rolled a rogue.)
The requirement to do School of Hard Knocks means that I will *never* complete the meta, and thus never have the 310% mount. This means that much of the incentive to grind through the other holiday achieves is gone.
Result? One badly designed, pointless, sadistic achievement removes the entire set of holidays from the game for me.
Cyrus May 7th 2010 10:10AM
I've only finished a handful of these "25 most evil achievements" and none of mine are the raid or PvP ones, so maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about, but I'm a bit surprised to see Insane in the Membrane as the very "most evil". Worse than raid achievements? Really? Insane is the most time-consuming, certainly; it took me six months. But it doesn't depend on anyone else doing their part, like raid achievements or PvP. My guild is relatively serious about raiding when we aren't having attendance problems, but we haven't got close to the Lich King yet and I can't imagine doing Yogg'Saron with even two keepers down. And Insane doesn't depend on the RNG as much as Accomplished Angler or a lot of holiday achievements. I got lucky on some of those, but Accomplished Angler took me almost as long as Insane just for one last gold coin from the Dalaran fountain. Insane costs a lot of money up front, but you make a lot of it back.
Easily the worst parts of Insane were the Darkmoon Faire and Shen'dralar. Bloodsail takes just a few hours of killing everyone in Booty Bay, and the goblins require a lot of Dire Maul runs but that doesn't seem so bad because you can get all kinds of other stuff along the way - materials for the other achievements, like librams, and tons of things to vendor or sell on the AH. Ravenholdt can be the most time-consuming if you're leveling a rogue specifically for this and potentially the most expensive if you're buying the junkboxes from someone else, but if you already have a rogue or don't mind leveling one it's probably the easiest part of all, other than the Bloodsail.
Shen'dralar, though... I think I got about half the Pristine Black Diamonds I needed while farming Dire Maul for librams and Knot's key. As for the rest, I was lucky if I could find them on the AH for as little as 90g. I could never decide which bind on pickup material was hardest to farm for the libram turnins - Skin of Shadow, which is frustratingly RNG, or Abomination Stitching, which is only at the very end of an instance, or Blood of Heroes, which can be anywhere on the map? The hardest one to farm was whichever I was farming at the moment. And Darkmoon? Farming thousands of herbs got me halfway there, and I spent thousands of gold to get the other half. I checked the AH several times a day for cheap cards or decks. I spammed the trade channel for days offering to pay people to let me turn in their decks for them, and only one or maybe two people took me up on that. (I can't blame people for refusing at first; they have no way of knowing I wasn't just ripping them off, of course. But after a few days I kept one of each trinket and offered to trade the trinket for the deck and still almost no one would do it.) One Faire shut down for the month when I still had a few thousand rep to go, so I went back to farming herbs and paid any price for the last hundred or so scribe-made decks.
But for all that complaining, all it takes is time. I would have genuinely gone insane if I had spent all that time trying to do Justicar.
L33T15T May 7th 2010 12:28PM
Insane in the Membrane most evil achievement. Agreed 100%. No points for completing it either, except for maybe getting The Exalted.
The one good thing I can say about the achievement though is that it's something you can do for something different and slowly work on. I've been working on it for about 10 months, so close to a year. Not shooting for it all at once, just if I feel like working on it for a little while.
It's kind-of peaceful actually, sorta like a different kind of fishing.
Franlkin May 7th 2010 12:38PM
I think you've chosen the wrong battleground achievements for the "most evil."
The two all-star achievements are not all that difficult to get if you decide you want them, particularly depending on your character's role. In particular as a character like a rogue, where you often wind up stealthing around looking for weaknesses and opportunities, you may get the AB one by accident.
Save the Day is kind of random-y, but it seems to happen somewhat frequently on my BG.
Without a Scratch SEEMS like a really evil achievement on its face -- in fact after my first few SOTAs I was puzzled about how it would even be remotely possible. In practice, especially as the expansion gets older, its' actually much easier than you think. You basically have to be on defense first to achieve it -- if you are on defense first, and defend the relic chamber (especially if you defend it in really demoralizing fashion, like only allowing a couple of wall breaches), oftentimes now the other side will simply give up and take their loss rather than play hard for a tie. I've gone through several SOTAs recently where the unsuccessful 1st round side mostly just stays put and afks, allowing the demolishers to just steamroll to the end.
You pointed out the real evil among battleground achievements, "we had it all along." It's an achievement that requires exact, precise timing of point accumulation in a game where the tempo of point accumulation frequently shifts and changes throughout the match. If you play AB frequently you'll realize that getting facially close to it, say 1600 to 1570, is not in terms of play getting close to it at all. Frankly I'm not sure how you'd achieve it other than really terrific luck or else somehow managing to get random people on two opposing sides to all coordinate and give it to one side.
The other achievement that stands out as really evil is wrecking ball. If you get 20 killing blows, in any battleground, you are not screwing around on vehicles or defending a remote node, you are right in the thick of the action. You also make yourself a target to the other team by 1. putting yourself on top of the scoreboard, and 2. Making yourself a target of vengeance for every single player you killed. It's very difficult to keep yourself from dying just once if you are constantly in the thick of battle, even more so if you are a focus target. In a way, with each killing blow you are making yourself increasingly likely to be the enemy focus, so that really qualifies this one for evil.
lumi May 7th 2010 2:06PM
FINALLY somebody talks about something other than SOHK or Insane!!
I am in total agreeance with you, Save the Day really doesnt have to be hard, and occurs FAR FAR FAR more frequently in lower bracket BGs.
I for one, have the acheivement on every single one of my characters over the level of 20. Being such that I am an avid low level PvPer (damn you blizz and your twink BG changes T_T) it was nearly impossible for me to NOT get this acheivement.
Unless you are strictly opposed to BGs until 80, there shouldnt be any reason to not get this sooner. Almost always, especially in a losing game, there will be a rogue or two in the EFR ready to pounce on the EFC. With some handy focus fire, and maybe CC on a healer or two, this can be easily obtained.
Again, Not Even a Scratch can be easily obtained in a lower level bracket. Unless you are of a low-population faction in your battlegroup, it is fairly easy to steamroll your way to victory in the 79 bracket. Diametricaly, if you are part of a low-population faction, this can be made infinitely harder. Just cross your fingers and hope the opposing side has never played the game before x,x
lumi May 7th 2010 2:20PM
We Had It All Along and Wrecking Ball again, VERY obtainable at lower levels.
In many cases, We Had It All Along was the final part of the meta I needed on my warrior beside AB Vet to get Master of Arathi Basin. Mind you, I got every other acheivement besides Vet before level 50.
At such low levels, one of two things will happen: Either one side will be severely outnumbered by the other, or both teams will have a full compliment. In the later case (at least in my battlegroup) the opposing side almost always has a decent number of healers. On my battlegroup, healers are few and far between in low level BGs, so we basically have to out-muscle the healers in order to be effective. This approach has always been very productive from a WHIAA standpoint, because the balance of the game is always touch and go
Wrecking Ball on the other hand, is so insanely easy to get at low level its not even funny. Again, as an avid low level PvPer, i basically gear/level up with the intentions of BG grinding at the end of my level bracket. So by the time I hit, say, 36 I have almost all BiS gear for my class/spec. Once you get to that point, 20 KBs without a single death is laughable, and I for one want a Godlike acheivement for 50 KBs without a single death!!! **HINT HINT BLIZZARD**. Basically, just know how to play your class, and know how to survive and this acheivement is in the bag.
Franlkin May 7th 2010 3:33PM
Lumi -- on wrecking ball, fair enough, we'll have to agree to disagree. I definitely concede that it's easier on lower levels, particularly if you are one of certain classes in certain brackets (i.e. DK 50-59; Druid 10-19; etc.). But I still think it's difficult and a bit of an evil achievement inasmuch as every KB increases your visibility and means you are in a situation where you could potentially get killed, making the difficulty of not dying raise with each KB.
On We Had it All Along, I'm just not seeing how it's materially easy to get in a lower bracket. Yes, being able to completely steamroll a team is one way that you could potentially get this achievement, inasmuch as you could bait them into capping 2, putting up an iron defense at another 2, and then turning the 5th into a quagmire that you will capture by force of will at exactly the right moment.
The problem though, and why it is both hard and evil, is that you have to convince EVERYBODY on the team to endure a long match and a greater chance at losing, just to get the achievement. This in a match where in ordinary course, a win would come quickly and easily. If you don't have everybody on board, all it takes is a dissenter or two to leave their base and allow it to get capped, or to go cap an enemy base, and then the math is screwed up. I just don't see getting everybody on board for this in a random battleground; I think you would almost need an entire premade formed for the express purpose of getting the achievement. And even if you have a team that's all on board, if the other team is not on board, again, all it takes is them managing to break through your defenses at one node, or preventing you from capturing the neutral node at the right moment, and once again the numbers get harder to correct.
In short, to reliably get this achievement on any level, I still see you mostly needing:
1. Incredible random luck on when nodes are capped and recapped;
2. A one-side premade or remarkably cohesive random group, that is capable of steamrolling the opponents badly enough to fairly precisely manipulate the timing of every node capture on the field; or
3. A two-side premade or mostly premade where both sides agree to let each other get the achievement in turn over 2 games. I've seen people trying to do this, but I'm guessing it's somewhat difficult to guarantee both premades will be matched against each other.
Those scenarios all combine to make for an evil achievement in my book.
One other thing that occurs to me as I ponder BG achievements -- I don't know if they qualify as "evil," but the AB/EOTS/AV "perfection" achievements have become very difficult since they instituted a queue that at least seeks to create an equal roster on each side before starting. Every once in a while you'll get a mismatch, but rarely. And even there it takes some effort to prevent a team in AB or EOTS from at least getting one tick of points from a node near to their spawn point. In AV, the captains go down like butter these days, and if you slow down to completely defend yours, it makes it difficult to get back on offense and complete the rest of the necessary steps.
derak_morrell May 7th 2010 1:15PM
Thanks for giving us Insane some love. I recently finished and I'm pretty excited about it. I still look at it as an achievement. I think they didn't make it a normal one, because they didn't want everyone to feel like it is an achievement they have to pursue.
I am a hunter so yeah, I had to make a rogue to get the lockboxes, but I also made him a scribe so that helped a ton.
-Derak the Insane, Sisters of Elune
Bituhani May 7th 2010 2:51PM
The Official response to School of Hard Knocks is that a lot of people have done it and we are going to make all your flying mounts 310% speed anyway so why would be change it.
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/t/24702262349/please-remove-school-of-hard-knocks-from-meta
I really think they need to read this blog. It is 100% correct as to why it shouldn't be in the meta or I think shouldn't exist as implemented.
Laurie May 7th 2010 8:31PM
The goals of School of Hard Knocks weren't too hard, especially with some opposing faction members being more than willing to help out every now and then.
The problem, at least on my battlegroup (Vengeance), was the horrendous wait times. My Guildmates and I experienced wait times of anywhere from 1.5 hours to 3 hours to get into a single battleground.
ecwfrk May 8th 2010 12:07PM
No Loremaster? Especially before you could query the server for complete quests, that one was pretty bad. Running around looking for rare spawns that drop quest starter items, running through every inch of every zone looking for Exclamation marks, or doing some long and/or expensive quest only to find out, it didn't count.