Ready Check: Trading up from 10 to 25

I've always been a bit agnostic when it comes to raid size. I tend to do both versions, because I want to put out the best performance possible for my raid and friends. In the current game, the best performances comes from 25-man gear. Even if you have the one or two best-in-slot pieces in 10-man fights, I don't think anyone can realistically claim 10-man gear is as effective as 25-man kits.
Sure, I'm open to the argument that 25-man raids are more difficult to organize, but I'm not exactly sure when "dealing with a pain in the butt" became a virtue in something that's supposed to be fun. Even more, it's not like every single person in that 25-man raid is dealing with the the same organizational pain. That's the job of the raid leaders.
With those factors being acknowledged, I've always preferred to rock out with a handful of friends and truly have a good time. I still do 25-man raids for the gear and prestige, but it is kind of a bummer to be forced into the larger raids. So, at the end of the day, I'm fairly pleased that 10-man and 25-man raiders are going to be treated with a level of equality.
But it does mean that now's a great time to upgrade your raid to a 25-man group if you're going to do so. By the time Cataclysm hits, I don't suspect many raiders will be yearning to start a new large-scale raid. It's more likely that 25-man raids will break down to 10-man raids than vice versa. If you don't get your 25-man raid started now, you might miss your chance. So, let's talk about how to upgrade your raid from 10 to 25.
The first thing to start thinking about when you're going from 10-man to 25-man is where you're going to get the extra 15 people. Sounds simple, right? It gets a little more complex than that.
Most 10-man raids run with two tanks, two full-time healers and one hybrid healer who swings back and forth between DPS and healing. Twenty-five-man raids, however, rock out with two full-time tanks, one hybrid tank and up to a half-dozen healers. You probably don't have to worry too much about finding another tank -- do you really think you can grab 15 random players from somewhere and not get a death knight, warrior or paladin? While I'm not a big fan of forcing people to take a role they don't want, chances are someone will be okay with the occasional off-tanking.
Healers could be an issue, because you're doubling the number of folks in your healer corps. And you can't just assume that you're going to find three people who want to heal out of 15. Therefore, healers are going to be one of the fundamental dynamics that determines how you're going to find those extra dozen or so raid players.
If you're in a successful 10-man raid, you basically have three options. You can recruit PUGs into raid members, co-raid with another group or merge with another group.
Recruiting PUGs into raid members is probably the option most people would prefer. By simply recruiting new raid members, your existing raid gets to keep its identity, expand its own success and maintain complete control of your raid rules. You don't have to alter your standard operating procedure, your loot rules or even your raid times. After all, you're allowing individual raid members to join you once they've been accepted.
The downside revolves around whether you have your raid's core already supplied. If you recruit 10 DPS who are standing around the raid pad waiting for healers, you're going to be in for a rough time. But if your core 10-man raiders supply mostly enough healing, mostly enough DPS and enough tanks, then go out and find a couple healers first. Don't worry about the DPS until you have the heals.
And then, with a core raid of three tanks, a half-dozen healers and a half-dozen DPS, go out and grab PUGs. Advertise on the official forums, in trade and stroll around the raid browser. You should set all of your expectations and policies up front -- these are your loot rules, there are your requirements, these are your expectations. If you're going to use GearScore or achievements as a gauge of someone's abilities, say that up front too.
You should be able to build a raid relatively quick like this on most servers. After you've conducted your raid that evening, talk to skillful performers about becoming a more permanent member of your raid. If you're a guild-based raid, maybe ask them to join the raid.The other down side to this method is that it takes time. You're constantly picking and choosing the best players, recruiting and adding on to your existing core. It can take a while, and it can be frustrating to manage. It can be upsetting to raid members, also, as some of their personal favorites are turned aside because they don't meet the raid leader's muster. But still, if you're trying to maintain control of your raid, then this might be your best method.
We can talk about co-raids and merging raids in the same breath because there's mostly administrative differences between the two. When I hear people talk about co-raids, I usually picture a raid that comes together with half the people form one guild and half the people in the other guild. When I hear folks discussed merged raids, then I think about two groups of people, coming together and forming one group.
Whichever of these two methods you choose (merging into one guild or staying separate), you will have to make compromises. Who gets to raid lead? Whose loot rules do you use? Who gets to be the main tank? What happens to tokens when they drop? What times are the raids?
This becomes a matter of negotiation. Negotiation is a common and frequent issue in politics, business and real life. But something about video game negotiation just drives people bonkers. Take your time; make sure you get it right. Even if you are the sole dictator of your raid group, with god-given authority, you still need to methodically and repeated communicate everything to your team. Why? Because you'll turn around and find out ... your team isn't there.
Merging and co-raiding will cause you to lose some raid members. It almost always happens. Raid schedules don't line up, individuals don't like the terms, folks are upset at the lost of identity. The list can go on forever. And while it's totally a bummer, it's also just the nature of the beast. When you're bringing two disparate groups of people together into one group, you're going to lose some. You need to make sure that you're communicating every aspect and that the end goal will be worth your time.
Next week, we'll talk about some of the fine points you should be sure to settle when you're merging groups. These little details can be quite a headache later, if you're not careful. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Ready Check is here to provide you all the information and discussion you need to bring your raiding to the next level. Check us out weekly to learn the strategies, bosses and encounters that make end-game raiding so much fun. Filed under: Ready Check (Raiding)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
neualex308 May 7th 2010 5:27PM
kitties
CaryEverett May 7th 2010 5:35PM
Needs more cats with horns.
Hollow Leviathan May 7th 2010 5:36PM
"chances are someone will be okay with the occasional off-tanking."
I mostly run into the problem that people give me looks because I don't have an OS on my tank. Am I the only tank out there that would really rather not do the occasional off-dpsing? Dual-specs are starting to edge into required for raiding, instead of a bonus for hybrids who like to flip flop.
Gx1080 May 7th 2010 5:43PM
Blame Blizz, is encounter design.
Lady Deathwhisper and Marrowgar give all 3 tanks something to do (even if it is being a Saber Lash sponge), Deathbringer Saurfang doesn't.
John May 7th 2010 5:53PM
In theory you could DPS in a tank spec, if not hitting as hard is acceptable.
Our guild's MT has two tank specs, so yeah not everyone has one.
We also have a couple tanks who are getting off spec DPS gear 'cause no one needs it. Which just leaves maintaining a spec and learning the rotation.
Vogie May 7th 2010 5:57PM
My DK FrosTank has no other spec, because I find that is the playstyle I prefer. I've thought about getting DS for him to mess around with Blood, but I really disliked it from the beginning. I'm getting my Resto Shaman an enhancement set from LFD loot rejects, but I probably won't do that for my dk. If they need more DPS, I'll bring my lock.
Neirin May 7th 2010 5:42PM
"You probably don't have to worry too much about finding another tank -- do you really think you can grab 15 random players from somewhere and not get a death knight, warrior or paladin?"
So druids aren't real tanks now?
More seriously, though, I haven't seen many co-raids work out. One group or the other has some officer who decides to make a grab for power by looting primordial saronites or whathaveyou to their guild and things explode in a matter of seconds. Even when they aren't making a grab for power, sometimes the different guilds might disagree on whose turn it is to loot a BoE or a mark, etc. The only co-raid I can think of that worked for a while (broke up due to inactivity rather than drama) was put together by 3 guilds rather than 2. I think having that tie-breaker potential really helped balance things.
Legend May 7th 2010 8:24PM
Druids can do melee stuff? All I ever see are trees and owls.
Eredur May 9th 2010 10:38PM
3 ilevel 264 items drop in 25 man ICC now, compared to 2 ilevel 251s in 10 man. So if they drop the same ilevel loot in 10s and 25s for Cata, will we get 5 items in 25 and 2 in 10 man, or 1 in 10 man and 3 in 25 man?
zubbiefish May 7th 2010 8:43PM
Best
Video
Ever
Baba May 8th 2010 4:02AM
After you've conducted your raid that evening, talk to skillful performers about becoming a more permanent member of your raid. If you're a guild-based raid, maybe ask them to join the raid.
Believe you meant to say "guild" not "raid" at the end?
Looking forward to the next installment :)
voodoo May 8th 2010 1:21PM
I can't wait to see some of these 25-man team try out 10-mans :) Love to see a few put in their place so to speak. 10's are harder, there isn't really room to carry someone and things get very hard very fast if you loose a DPS. If you loose a tank or healer its often a wipe, 10's are harder if a bit quicker to organize and I am not sure every 25 man raider is going to fair all that well.
Benjai May 14th 2010 3:57PM
The opposite is happening with my guild. They're planning on breaking down into 2 10-mans and I don't know how I feel about that. I kinda enjoy the competitiveness of 25mans. When theres 3 rogues in the same raid they can directly compare their performance and figure out how to improve together. In 10mans essentially each person has their own role.