The Care and Feeding of Warriors: What does arms need?
The Care and Feeding of Warriors is about warriors, those lovable, squeezable, strokable bundles of pure joy who seethe with a burning inner fire, a rage that can only be quenched in blood. Matthew Rossi tries quenching it in delicious caffeinated beverages. You'd be surprised how often that works.
I mentioned last week that I thought warriors were undertuned. It was a controversial message, in part because people tend to miss half of it. What I mean by it is best illustrated by things like arms warrior DPS. It is an indisputable fact that arms DPS is near the absolute bottom of the physical DPS and never even comes close to its fury cousin. In a game where fury warriors in the best gear with the best understanding of their abilities can put out DPS approaching that of a pure class, arms simply does not scale in the same exponential way.
Arms warriors do not gain the kind of sustained PvE DPS from incoming rage the way fury warriors do. And with the coming of rage normalization in Cataclysm, arms warriors are exactly the reason that I am concerned with the baseline undertuning of the warrior class. Basically, rage does need to be adjusted; the competitive DPS of fury warriors with specs like ret paladins and enhancement shamans shows this, because if not for rage scaling's being out of whack, fury would be as underperforming in ICC as arms is. The fact that fury does on average 1.2k DPS more than arms (and can do as much as 3k more) shows that, once the rage rug is pulled out from under warriors, the class as a whole is going to be doing arms levels of DPS ... and arms is simply far too low in PvE.
Part of the problem is that arms is still seen as the PvP spec and has quite a few tools that, if combined with fury levels of damage, could prove extremely dangerous. I'm actually hopeful that Cataclysm's changes to warriors will alleviate this to some degree. In a sense, removing the importance of the Mortal Strike healing debuff by increasing everyone's health pools and lowering the healing reduction could end up being a good thing for arms warriors in PvE, since arms burst in PvP won't count twice anymore. The old saw is that with the MS debuff, every point of damage an arms warrior does counts double, which is true as far as it goes... It would be more accurate to say that as long as an arms warrior can keep the MS debuff up, every point of damage his or her entire team does counts double -- making arms dangerous when paired with classes that can do actual sustained damage.
Remove this crutch and the hobbled nature of arms becomes much clearer to see. All of arms' danger in PvP comes from high burst (MS crits, Bladestorm), mobility and the debuff. Kick the props over, and arms' weakness becomes apparent; it simply can't compete in terms of pure damage. Since arms is based around bleeds and procs, is highly reliant on ArP and doesn't gain nearly as much from HS/cleave spamming in high trash fights, it simply hasn't got as much to offer as DPS in PvE. Sure, an arms warrior can provide increased physical damage to the entire raid, but so can a combat rogue, and a combat rogue is putting out 2.5k more DPS (and far, far more on melee friendly fights). If you're choosing between those two classes for that debuff, you're going to pick the rogue no matter how much the arms warrior "knows what he is doing." The temptation would be to say that if the warrior knew what he was doing, he would have rerolled fury.
Frankly, that's not the answer. A class with two DPS specs shouldn't have one that is head and shoulders above the other in PvE. It also shouldn't have one that is completely dominant over the other in PvP. I understand the difficulty with this kind of balancing act, of course, but it still needs to be addressed. The answer to the question of what arms needs in PvE is unquestionable: they need more damage per second.
What I said last week still holds true: when Cataclysm launches, I expect it will lead to a period of warriors underperforming, especially as DPS. I don't enjoy this prospect, but for arms as a PvE spec, I think this might ultimately be a good thing. With fury no longer serving as the "good enough" DPS spec entirely because it manages to exploit rage better, any buffs to increase warrior DPS that will have to come following rage normalization will help.
I'm neither expecting nor asking for anything before the expansion, of course. And looking at the proposed expansion changes to the class, I'm mildly hopeful that arms will get the tools it needs to be competitive DPS in Cataclysm. With the reduction in rage gain, and abilities like Gushing Wound and the arms mastery adding armor pen (making arms the only warrior tree with the ability to passively penetrate armor), the basic toolkit to make arms competitive exists. I'm not sure exactly how much work would be needed to get arms up there with fury (assuming fury doesn't just drop down to arms levels), much less other hybrid physical DPS, but it should be within reach. It's clear that in PvE right now, arms isn't there and hasn't been there for most of this expansion. (The last time I can remember being able to raid competitively as arms was in Ulduar.) It is my opinion that arms' woes are entirely due to its having all the vulnerabilities of the current rage generation model without the benefits of runaway rage scaling. Therefore, for once I can honestly say, I hope Cataclysm can fix this.
I mentioned last week that I thought warriors were undertuned. It was a controversial message, in part because people tend to miss half of it. What I mean by it is best illustrated by things like arms warrior DPS. It is an indisputable fact that arms DPS is near the absolute bottom of the physical DPS and never even comes close to its fury cousin. In a game where fury warriors in the best gear with the best understanding of their abilities can put out DPS approaching that of a pure class, arms simply does not scale in the same exponential way.
Arms warriors do not gain the kind of sustained PvE DPS from incoming rage the way fury warriors do. And with the coming of rage normalization in Cataclysm, arms warriors are exactly the reason that I am concerned with the baseline undertuning of the warrior class. Basically, rage does need to be adjusted; the competitive DPS of fury warriors with specs like ret paladins and enhancement shamans shows this, because if not for rage scaling's being out of whack, fury would be as underperforming in ICC as arms is. The fact that fury does on average 1.2k DPS more than arms (and can do as much as 3k more) shows that, once the rage rug is pulled out from under warriors, the class as a whole is going to be doing arms levels of DPS ... and arms is simply far too low in PvE.
Part of the problem is that arms is still seen as the PvP spec and has quite a few tools that, if combined with fury levels of damage, could prove extremely dangerous. I'm actually hopeful that Cataclysm's changes to warriors will alleviate this to some degree. In a sense, removing the importance of the Mortal Strike healing debuff by increasing everyone's health pools and lowering the healing reduction could end up being a good thing for arms warriors in PvE, since arms burst in PvP won't count twice anymore. The old saw is that with the MS debuff, every point of damage an arms warrior does counts double, which is true as far as it goes... It would be more accurate to say that as long as an arms warrior can keep the MS debuff up, every point of damage his or her entire team does counts double -- making arms dangerous when paired with classes that can do actual sustained damage.
Remove this crutch and the hobbled nature of arms becomes much clearer to see. All of arms' danger in PvP comes from high burst (MS crits, Bladestorm), mobility and the debuff. Kick the props over, and arms' weakness becomes apparent; it simply can't compete in terms of pure damage. Since arms is based around bleeds and procs, is highly reliant on ArP and doesn't gain nearly as much from HS/cleave spamming in high trash fights, it simply hasn't got as much to offer as DPS in PvE. Sure, an arms warrior can provide increased physical damage to the entire raid, but so can a combat rogue, and a combat rogue is putting out 2.5k more DPS (and far, far more on melee friendly fights). If you're choosing between those two classes for that debuff, you're going to pick the rogue no matter how much the arms warrior "knows what he is doing." The temptation would be to say that if the warrior knew what he was doing, he would have rerolled fury.
Frankly, that's not the answer. A class with two DPS specs shouldn't have one that is head and shoulders above the other in PvE. It also shouldn't have one that is completely dominant over the other in PvP. I understand the difficulty with this kind of balancing act, of course, but it still needs to be addressed. The answer to the question of what arms needs in PvE is unquestionable: they need more damage per second.
What I said last week still holds true: when Cataclysm launches, I expect it will lead to a period of warriors underperforming, especially as DPS. I don't enjoy this prospect, but for arms as a PvE spec, I think this might ultimately be a good thing. With fury no longer serving as the "good enough" DPS spec entirely because it manages to exploit rage better, any buffs to increase warrior DPS that will have to come following rage normalization will help.
I'm neither expecting nor asking for anything before the expansion, of course. And looking at the proposed expansion changes to the class, I'm mildly hopeful that arms will get the tools it needs to be competitive DPS in Cataclysm. With the reduction in rage gain, and abilities like Gushing Wound and the arms mastery adding armor pen (making arms the only warrior tree with the ability to passively penetrate armor), the basic toolkit to make arms competitive exists. I'm not sure exactly how much work would be needed to get arms up there with fury (assuming fury doesn't just drop down to arms levels), much less other hybrid physical DPS, but it should be within reach. It's clear that in PvE right now, arms isn't there and hasn't been there for most of this expansion. (The last time I can remember being able to raid competitively as arms was in Ulduar.) It is my opinion that arms' woes are entirely due to its having all the vulnerabilities of the current rage generation model without the benefits of runaway rage scaling. Therefore, for once I can honestly say, I hope Cataclysm can fix this.
Filed under: Warrior, (Warrior) The Care and Feeding of Warriors







Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Chad May 7th 2010 1:09PM
A Squire.
Give Randis, Grunth, Salandra or Dornaa a Dancing Rune Weapon.
Elmouth May 7th 2010 2:21PM
"What does Arms need"
I'm gonna go ahead and say Less Nerfs.
I don't even main a warrior and even I felt bad when the last Bladestorm nerf came.
Arms lost its last touch of appeal with it, every PvP warrior is going Prot and pvE are going Fury. Its sad really.
BigBadGooz May 7th 2010 1:15PM
The problem I see making arms Pve viable is that you wouldent go fury because then you would rather roll for 1 good 2 hander over finding 2. Decent ones. I think arms has it's place along with fury. And tbh I don't really see a problem with 1 spec being pvp one pve and one tank it just makes the whoal thing easy as a melée class
zappo May 7th 2010 1:40PM
You'll still see fury because I'm thinking the playstyle is still going to be quite different. I'm also guessing fury is still going to be better for AoE. If people were always worried about rolling on weapons, then you'd never see a rogue that didn't use daggers. But there are quite a few combat rogues still out there. One big problem with all this is that fury can use 2h weapons, but needs two, but arms only needs one but is basically stuck with axes (and polearms with agility) because of weapons specialization.
Personally I'm going 1h fury so I'll be in that pool of weapons. Well if fury gets improved and they add a bit of fun to it.
Ayashi May 7th 2010 2:08PM
People will still go Fury for sure. At this point for me, it is a question of fun.
I raid as Arms. I do this for two reasons:
1) I can supply physical dps buffs to the raid (these are generally not supplied by my guild - we have zero feral druids and our rogues typically raid as assassination, though we generally do miss out on Leader of the Pack/Rampage :()
2) It is way more fun than Fury. (My opinion :P)
I have tried Fury a couple of times this expansion but it is so dull and my DPS has not increased to compensate for the lack of fun. I am not exactly sure why I feel that way as I used to love Fury in vanilla and TBC, but while the idea of Titan's Grip was great, I hated the slow swing speed in practice. Why that makes me want to play a spec where I only get to swing ONE weapon slowly, I don't know, but I love that I get two procs to play with (Taste For Blood and Sudden Death), a mid-swing attack (slam), I have to pay attention to keep Rend up... Arms feels more dynamic to me and that's why I keep playing as it. (I suspect part of the DPS not changing when I switch spec is due to my gearing choices, some of which favor Arms over Fury)
I may go back to 1H fury in Cata, at least to try it because 1H fury was my baby in vanilla and TBC and I miss that playstyle. But if they don't add anything to make Fury as fun as Arms... I'll still be going back :)
As it is, it may be that my guild and some of its players aren't hardcore enough to totally outshine me, or that my gear is just good. I am competitive in my guild though and still put out good DPS for where my gear is at, so that's what matters to me at this point :)
Neirin May 7th 2010 4:28PM
I'll probably keep my warrior fury for all eternity regardless of nerfs/buffs/playstyle changes for 1 simple reason: I'm using 2 giant 2h weapons.
TWO GIANT TWO HANDED WEAPONS!!!
I still haven't lost my excitement about this since TG was first announced back in BC.
tim May 7th 2010 8:14PM
I kind of agree. Fury has two problems.
1. It doesn't "feel" like fury - it doesn't feel like I'm running around with a battle-crazed orc wielding two massive instruments of death. It feels pretty boring, actually.
2. It requires 2 two-handed weapons.
Personally, if Blizzard works on 1 I won't care too much about 2. If they don't, then yes, I won't bother with Fury, I'll go with Arms.
Teaspoon May 7th 2010 11:55PM
@Ayashi
I find the same thing. I mainspec prot, but when we have too many tanks for the fight it's always Arms that I swap into. Fury SEEMS like it would be energetic and frantic with the two weapons smashing away, but it's just not. Bloodthirst every 4s, whirlwind every 8, slam if you got a bloodsurge proc and HS if there's rage. If you're not getting bloodsurge procs, you're doing three instants per 8 seconds and other than that you're just watching great stonking big 2H weapons swinging ponderously back and forth.
Compare that to Arms, where every single GCD is used to: rend if it's not up, execute if it's procced, mortal strike if the cooldown's done, overpower if it's procced and slam if there's nothing else left to do. Also maybe stack up some sunders in there instead of slams if you don't have a warrior tank to put them on.
Arms is so much busy, and has the constant chopping, slashing and hacking that you'd be EXPECTING to find in Fury.
Also, I'm just throwing this out there... the dual wield specialisation talent in deep fury should be to make all instants hit with offhand as well. Adding an extra half (three quarters? five eighths? It's been a while since I took dual wield specialisation) damage by hitting with offhand on the instant-casts will bring the damage on an instant hit in line with what a 2H-instant does.
Dave May 7th 2010 1:18PM
Arms need shoulders and elbows. Hands and fingers help, but are not necessary.
ender0502 May 7th 2010 1:20PM
i just hit 80 on my warrior and I was arms the whole way. I really enjoy the playstyle, and am disappointed that it seems as though I have to switch to fury in order to be competitive. i do hope that arms can become more viable in pve.
clundgren May 7th 2010 1:22PM
"Frankly, that's not the answer. A class with two DPS specs shouldn't have one that is head and shoulders above the other in PvE. It also shouldn't have one that is completely dominant over the other in PvP."
Why is that, exactly? I mean, I play a ret paladin and I like both PvE and PvP, so I have to dual spec ret for each role as they are quite different (PvP ret spec goes quite far into the prot tree). It seems to me that this is little different than a warrior speccing fury for PvE and arms for PvP, or a mage speccing arcane/fire for PvE and frost for PvP, etc.
Since your class has the luxury of 2 dps specs, maybe it makes sense to have them specialized in this way. After all, the upshot is that you currently have a powerful, specialized PvE spec and a powerful, specialized PvP spec to choose from. Isn't that better than a "fix" that, potentially, could leave you with two specs that are mediocre in both departments?
I guess what I am saying is that I see the current situation as an *advantage* for warriors. The PvP/PvE balancing act, as you correctly point out, is tricky, and Blizzard's "balancing" often involves nerfs, not buffs, this ret paladin is here to tell you.
Matthew Rossi May 7th 2010 1:28PM
Basically, the reason for that is because Blizzard has said arms should be viable in PvE. Right now it isn't.
danawhitaker May 7th 2010 1:34PM
"I guess what I am saying is that I see the current situation as an *advantage* for warriors. "
It's not an advantage for anyone who prefers the playstyle of arms for PVE. I've tried fury on my warrior a few times, and I've yet to even come close to touching my arms DPS. There's something about the rotation that eludes me. If Blizzard doesn't want arms to be viable in PVE, they need to be more explicit then and just kill it now rather than drag it out.
clundgren May 7th 2010 1:47PM
@danawhitaker
You make a very good point with regards to playstyle, but again, I think it is a question of "be careful what you wish for". The fact is that most people who play arms currently do so with PvP in mind, and it is hard to see arms getting a significant dps boost for PvE without some strong PvP nerfs to go with them, since arms is already a top tier PvP class. As Rossi points out, you're opening a whole balancing can of worms. Are you sure you want that?
Everyone accepts that frost is the mage's PvP spec, subtlety for rogues, etc. Blizzard has tried to make these specs more effective for PvE, but it hasn't really made much difference, except that now they can be respectable in heroics, I guess. No one seriously raids in them. Again, the upshot is that these classes have *really good* PvP specs if players want that option. So do warriors, currently. Are you sure you want to give that up?
brian May 7th 2010 1:51PM
They've said they don't like specialized trees. There was a specific pvp and pve tree before, but they've moved away from it.
What you quoted specifically says "with two Dps specs." Paladins do not have two dps specs, and so it would make sense that you would have to stay within one tree for your damage dealing. Just like hybrids get more flexibility with roles, classes with more than one dps spec (and pures especially) get more flexibility with dealing damage.
It's not like the two specs have to do the same damage. Fire and Arcane do different styles of damage, with Fire being more sustained and higher dps on average, and Arcane doing higher burst and can reach a higher top dps on fights. As long as Arms can come within a decent range of Fury, it should be good. Currently, that is not so. In Frostheim's dps analysis a few posts back, Arms was down with Beast Mastery and Subtlety (and Frost). That's... pretty far behind. Being down with the pures' throwaway spec for pve isn't too good.
I hope their goal of being able to tweak a spec with mastery works out. That would make it so much easier to put specs where they want them.
Boobah May 7th 2010 2:00PM
Perhaps more to the point, arms doesn't play the same as fury. A ret plays the same way in both PvP and PvE, as much as anything does. Somebody who likes the arms playstyle and has enjoyed PvEing with it for 80 plus levels shouldn't have to change to another tree; the devs seem to agree, which is why they've been spending as much effort as they have in the mage's frost tree, which is in a similar situation.
The biggest thing for equality between the two DPS specs is Heroic Strike and Cleave no longer eating auto attacks, which means that a Fury warrior won't be able to continuously HS/Cleave their main hand strikes while being fueled by their off-hand strikes.
None of which means that warriors in general are going to be in a good place at Cata launch, of course, but it points away from the disparity between the two DPS specs that currently exist, and that'll make it easier to balance the class all around.
brian May 7th 2010 2:07PM
Actually, Subtlety is fairly bad for rogues. That possibly could have changed with the recent buffs, but as far as I know, it's still Assassination that's the PvP spec, mainly because of Deadly Brew, as well as the other poison benefits. And it just so happens that it's the top PvE spec for rogues as well. So, it's not like it can't work out.
I do see your point about having specialized specs being better than two mediocre ones, but with mastery and other changes, I can see it being possible to separate most of the PvP and PvE talents, as well as making the gearing different enough where it could be easier to separate the balance as well. I understand why some specs have to be behind, because everyone can't be the top, but is there any reason that at least two specs can't be decent?
Tijah May 7th 2010 1:32PM
i dont know about other arms warriors but in raids where everyone is very well geared, im usually topping the dps charts over the fury warriors and the pure dps classes
gutserker Jul 1st 2010 1:13AM
i dual-spec arms and fury (cookie-cutter fury, incite arms), and honestly, im usually in the top 5 for any raid. now, not every fight is tuned towards arms if there is not a prot warrior, but in the good fights (toravon, saurfang, festergut, stuff like that where you just max dps) its fine. i go fury or arms dependent on raid buffs. fury if the raid dosnt have the 5% crit, arms if it is. i do agree that arms is "feast or famine" when it comes to rage, the ability to get good dps depends on external rage gen sources, otherwise its not enough.
danawhitaker May 7th 2010 1:37PM
"I guess what I am saying is that I see the current situation as an *advantage* for warriors. "
It's not an advantage for anyone who prefers the playstyle of arms for PVE. I've tried fury on my warrior a few times, and I've yet to even come close to touching my arms DPS. There's something about the rotation that eludes me. If Blizzard doesn't want arms to be viable in PVE, they need to be more explicit then and just kill it now rather than drag it out.