Ready Check: You're fired, redux

Using my patent pending way-back machine, I want us all to travel back in time to November 2009 when Michael released this article dealing with how to terminate a raid member from your team. All of the information and advice in that column are still very relevant to this day; however, there is a small issue that Mr. Gray did not address at that time. I am, of course, talking about what to do when you have a raid member you wish to terminate, but feel that your guild is currently not capable of handling the loss.
It's the end of an expansion once again, and the same problems that plagued guilds during the months before The Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King are hitting us all now. Raiding guilds by the dozen are finding their member rosters slowly trickling away. As Cataclysm draws ever nearer, many players are losing their interest in the raiding scene – at least temporarily. Recruitment is down across the board, and even some of the high-end guilds are having difficulties finding replacement raiders this late in the game. In such a system as this, it is very easy for any raiding guild to dissolve into anarchy. There isn't going to be another raiding tier released, there won't be another year's worth of content to explore and players are just generally losing interest in raiding.
At such a time, it can be very difficult for a raid leader to make some of the hard choices that are required of him. Removing a player from a guild is never an easy task, even in the best of times, so it poses an even larger conundrum for a guild that is already struggling. When you are in a guild that only has 27 or so raiders, can you really afford to lose another player? Are you really in a state where kicking people for the things that you would normally kick them for actually benefits the guild as a whole? In my opinion, the answer is unequivocally "yes."
Why you should continue business as usual
For a guild leader, it can be very difficult justifying the removal of a player from your guild when you are already struggling to get a full raid together on standard nights. However, no matter what state your guild is currently in, you must hold fast to the rules that you have in place. With effort, things will always get better, but allowing a wound within the guild to sit and fester without treating it is only going to lead to a massive infection -- an infection that can prove deadly.
Chances are, if you are running a guild that has certain performance standards, then you aren't the only one who notices when people are not holding up to the level that they are supposed to. Being a GM does not make you omnipresent; if you can see performance issues in a player, then you better believe that your other guild members notice it as well. When you are in a guild that takes their raiding seriously, then allowing a player who isn't up to par to remain in the guild sends a very clear signal to the rest of your raiders. It clearly states that the rules aren't important, that no matter how badly they play, no matter how poorly they do, they are not going to lose their precious raid slot. When you have multiple players who are failing to meet the guild's requirements for one reason or another, it is going to frustrate the rest of your raiding team, and frustrated raiders have a tendency to look for other options.
It may seem as though you are not making the best choice for your raiders in the short term, and some players may express frustration at losing members when you are already short, but in the long term, this really is the best option to take. Again, failure to enforce the rules will only show your raiders that the rules don't matter. It may not cause any problems for you now, but down the road, it can become a very difficult issue. It becomes hard to justify removing a raider for poor performance down the road when the guild is in a better state if you failed to enforce the policy in the past.
Seeking alternatives
As harsh as following the letter of the law may sound, it is honestly for the best for your guild. That isn't to say that there aren't loopholes that you can exploit. When you are caught between a rock and hard place such as this, there is an alternative that you can follow that is the best of both worlds.
First and foremost, talk to the raider in question. Be fair, honest and firm. Tell him the issues that you are having with him, and explain quite clearly the consequences (which feels like a terrible word in this situation) of those issues. Then offer an alternate solution.
Instead of outright removal of the player, offer him a probationary spot in your raids. This slot is not a permanent free pass, and you should be clear to let him know that. Tell him that you are happy to have him along to fill in for missing raiders, but that his spot is no longer guaranteed and that he will not be prioritized above any other raider in the guild.
On the surface, this may seem like a cruel option to the player in question. You are essentially telling him that his raiding position within your guild has been terminated, yet you are going to continue to keep him around. At times, it can feel like you are abusing the player just to fulfill your own needs. By choosing this option, both of you need to realize that this is not the case. Usually, when it comes to performance issues, the player with the problem isn't a horrible person. Sometimes he is, and in that case, you probably just want to remove him and get it over with. However, the alternate solution leaves you an option for those cases when your raiding team really does like the other player, who just happens to not be able to keep pace with the rest of the group.
You should be clear that this isn't a punishment to the player, it is a second chance. If the player manages to bring his performance up to par, then he can be returned to the previous full raider status. Let him know that, even once things start going well and you have a full set of raiders, he is free to remain in the guild and raid with you whenever there is an open slot.
It can be hard for many players to hear this, so don't expect everyone to take to the offer kindly. It is just about as likely that the player will quit on the spot as it is that he will accept your offer, but it helps let him know that you have nothing against them as a person, which is very important. Further, many players need this form of tough love. Some people "just don't get it," as the saying goes, and they need to see the reality of the circumstances before it all actually clicks. Putting them on this probationary status may just be the kick in the pants that they need to get their junk together.
Fleshing out the raid
You may be all well and good with handling the players that you want to get rid of, but how does this help you with the players that you want to keep? If you are constantly booting out members when you are already falling short of your raiding numbers, how do you keep your current members raiding?
The simplest answer is to pug. Never, ever feel that you are too important to pug, and make sure that your guild understands this as well. No one is above pugging -- no one. In all honesty, recruitment is nothing more than pugging, in a sense. You are taking a random player who you've probably never played with before. All they have done is responded to your call of LFM, and you're inviting them into the raid. Pugging is essentially the same thing as recruiting; the only difference is that the players you pick up may or may not actually be looking to join your guild. That's okay, though.
Pugging players has a negative connotation associated with it, when it honestly shouldn't. There is nothing wrong with PUG players, and you may find yourself presently surprised by what you pick up. Not every player you meet is going to be sunshine and rainbows; there will be a mix of good and bad. The solution is to just roll with the punches. Keep track of the good players, even if they don't have much interest in joining your guild, just as you keep track of the bad players that you want to avoid inviting back.
A good player who doesn't particularly want to join your guild isn't a terrible thing. You may find that it works out perfectly fine. People play this game for a variety of different reasons, and people join guilds for the same number. I have consistently raided with many players outside of my guild who are exceptional, but they had no interest in joining with us. They might be on, ready and eager to go for each and every raid we put together, but they happen to be a guild with family or friends and they don't want to leave them. Just because a player doesn't want to join your guild exclusively doesn't make him useless to you. If he can be on, ready and willing to attend every raid you have -- plus be a great player -- does it really matter if he shares the same guild tag as you?
Pugging is also a great way to find new recruits. Many players aren't very savvy about finding which guilds are looking for what members, or maybe they're shy about putting in applications where they feel they might be rejected. Perhaps they don't even realize that they are in need of a raiding guild. Many players define themselves as being casual, so they may think that getting raids outside of the occasional PUG is beyond them. Be there to prove them wrong. Show them that they can still be a casual player yet a raider as well.
TL;DR
Removing players is never easy, especially when your guild is already hurting for members. However, sticking to whatever raiding guidelines that you've set in place is imperative. Never be afraid that kicking a player will be the downfall of your guild. Even if you are lacking a few players to flesh out a full raiding team, don't feel you're out of luck. Pugging is always an option and isn't nearly as bad as people make it out to be.
Ready Check is here to provide you all the information and discussion you need to bring your raiding to the next level. Check us out weekly to learn the strategies, bosses and encounters that make end-game raiding so much fun. Filed under: Ready Check (Raiding)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Dystaxia May 14th 2010 2:26PM
It sucks to see people go but if they can't keep up, especially with progressive raiding, some things cannot be avoided. :(
Buh May 14th 2010 2:21PM
Trophy of the Crusader takes too much time to get and level 245 sets are unobtainable because of this. I don't believe it is a fair trade to exchange 90 frost emblems for 1 trophy either...
I cancelled my subscription and quit playing because I have no choice but to spend hours in a raid group hoping for a small chance of getting a Trophy. Huge waste of my time.
Level 232 gear took a while but it was fun.
I probably would not have cancelled my subscription if heroic Halls of Reflection offered a chance to receive a Trophy (and a better chance than the Shriveled Heart drop).
Maybe when Cataclysm comes out it will be a little more realistic for casual players to get better gear.
Wump May 14th 2010 2:35PM
"Maybe when Cataclysm comes out it will be a little more realistic for casual players to get better gear."
What defines better? If you don't have the time to raid, by circumstance or choice, do you think you should have access to the best gear out there? 232 gear allows for entry into all but the highest level raid content. If the difference between 232 and 245 caused you to quit you're playing for the wrong reasons.
Skem May 14th 2010 3:06PM
casuals don't need top level gear- and even T10 is given away with the amount of Frost badges you can get a week- just have to be focused and not give into instant gratification
LynMars May 14th 2010 3:32PM
"Maybe when Cataclysm comes out it will be a little more realistic for casual players to get better gear."
This amuses me greatly as I have always considered myself a "casual" player; I never saw the endgame content or anything better than blue gear in Classic, and only the lowest tier of raiding gear in BC. It was terribly silly from a business standpoint, I thought, to put so much time and effort into the endgame when the majority of players never saw or experienced it until it was well outdated.
Wrath has made it -incredibly- easy for anyone to get decent to great gear via crafting, running heroic 5mans, and opening up raiding content to 10 man teams as well as 25. I'm shocked at how high my gear ranking is for my class and spec on my server, and that's only because I happened to have a block of time open up, and a friend had me PUG a spot in his guild's 25man that became semi-regular (unless my variable work schedule messes with it).
"Casuals" who don't have uber gear are the folks who don't want to run instances and raids (I actually know some folks who are scared of joining groups due to bad past experiences, which makes me sad), or people who only have the time and distractions for solo play here and there, which won't get all the gear slots filled with 264 items.
If someone has time and inclination at all to run a few instances now and then, and maybe join friends/guildies in a raid when possible, and maybe mat gather for the crafters in the guild, one can still be "Casual" and progress with gear, albeit slowly. The dev team isn't just going to hand someone the BiS items for playing X number of hours if they put no further effort into it. Life doesn't work that way, and neither does a competitive gaming system.
I am rather glad that Cata is going to equalize the gearscore on 10man and 25man loot so I can choose "run with the big group of pals this week, or well, I'm feeling a little less social, maybe I'll just hit the 10man for a bit of quiet and more casual fun." As opposed to feeling like I need to get the Marks/Trophies/whatever from 25man to improve my already top end gear to be a better healer for my 10man (or just make it match, argh!), and feeling burnt out from seeing ICC so many times a week.
sorrowf May 14th 2010 2:30PM
I don't know about you, but since last September or October, I've had people tell me in game that "Cataclysm's coming", "beta is imminent", "why are we doing this, we'll just have to level again". Hell, my own guild forums already has a thread with people planning on grouping together for dungeon grinding for an expansion that's not yet in beta.
The "carrot" of a new expansion means people are already aware that what they're doing currently in game will be devalued massively the day Cataclysm hits the stores. So, why bother do anything other than make gold? Gold's the *only* thing in game which will have any relevance once the xpac drops.
If Blizzard really wants people to raid, make every boss drop 1k gold. Watch the people flock to raid guilds.
Jaq May 14th 2010 3:04PM
My guild's lost a few people to "I'm coming back when Cata comes out," even though they've not downed the Lich King yet. I might understand not bothering if every gear slot I had was filled with heroic 25 man ICC gear, but some of these people are barely geared for ICC 10. People can be so silly sometimes.
Rob May 14th 2010 3:11PM
Except that outside of a very narrow scope, gold is useless. I am goldcapped and have nothing I desire to spend gold on. If you want to do GDKP, then sure fine, do that. Or get your mammoth or so forth. But very soon you'll figure out, hey i can't do anything with my 100k gold.
Lacuestajs May 14th 2010 2:35PM
If there are any raid leaders out there, please do not be afraid to pug other players. I have to join a lot of pugs for either the weekly raid or whenever a raid needs a tank healer (I play a holy palladin.) As the article pointed out, no one is above pugging, and some pug may surpirse you. I was in a pug with people who were from diffferent gulilds and we just DEVISATED the first part of icc. The best part of it all? This wasn't some pug who were caught up in gear score bullshit or achevment crap, these were people who just wanted to enjoy the game and wanted to give icc a shot.
So to all raid leaders out there, if you need to pug, then pug. You'd be surpirsed what you can find.
Anthony May 14th 2010 2:36PM
I agree wholeheartedly with rules being rules no matter the environment,but sometimes pugging isn't so easy.
What recommendations would you have for a 25 man raiding guild that routinely pulls 19-22 members for raid night, but functions on dkp? pugging isnt really an option with dkp, nor do those that show up want to have their hard earned dkp ignored. Big problem i see many guilds having, including my own.
Tyler Caraway May 14th 2010 2:57PM
That is a very good question, Anthony. Loot distribution rules can be a very tricky thing to handle when you bring a PuG into the mix.
If you happen to run a loot council system, then you can usually get away with retaining that form of loot distribution. LC is what my, now formally, guild used and throughout our Naxx days when we were struggling to get members, we continued to use it even when he had PuGs in the raid. There were a few cases where the players were not comfortable with trusting us, but every run that where we did use it went perfectly smooth without any loot disputes at all. You just have to make sure that your council is being as fair as possible when giving stuff out. People will get upset if you are clearly only going to be giving all of the best stuff to your own members, but so long as you spread the wealth around, there should never be any problems.
DKP is little harder to deal with. In the case of a DKP based guild, you many want to consider switching to being LC run when running with PuGs or just using an open roll system. A possible solution is to give each PuG member an aggregate amount of DKP based around the average amount that your current players have and follow your loot rules as normal. Say that you usually spend 5 - 20 DKP per item and your raid's average is around 35 DKP. You 'gift' 35 DKP to each PuG that they can then use to bid on items as they want them as they would if they were a normal member of your guild. It would probably be much more difficult to get PuGs to buy into using this method, but it could work.
As mentioned, you can also just go with open rolls, but that can usually cause some of your personal raid members to get a bit upset about things, especially if not everyone is on the same level in respects to loot.
crschmidt May 14th 2010 3:20PM
Stop worrying about loot.
This might seem a bit callous, but practically speaking -- both as a raid leader and as someone who regularly PUGs raids -- I would highly recommend simply taking the hit and accepting that DKP is not going to happen for loot distribution in those raids. Unless you have a regular set of PUGs that you keep inviting back, you should just switch to a /roll based system.
Assuming the players you're pugging are approximately equal to your guild players, you're likely only giving up 20% of the pieces that might drop anyway -- and those players are making it so that you can keep gaining loot, and everything else you need.
Establish decent loot rules at the start -- for example, "Mainspec rolls first, offspec rolls second, mainspec priority to those who haven't won anything, tier tokens and saronite stay in guild." Generally speaking, these types of rolls will be acceptable to most PUGs, and while you're PUGging, your guild can keep learning, and gain badges, as well as still picking up most of the loot from the runs. Even if a couple pieces get grabbed by a PUG, you should still have a decent amount of loot progression in guild, and it's much better in any case than taking the night off; badges, practice, and experience working together will help you out in the end.
(If the PUGs you're inviting are significantly differently geared than you, you may be bringing the wrong PUGs.)
Janaan May 14th 2010 3:39PM
I'd suggest finding a few quality players that are willing to run with you all the time, and run on the basis of DKP. Maybe to get those people you'll have to do /roll rules once just to get them hooked, but if it's a good run they very well may be willing to come again.
An alternative is to do the /roll, then assuming someone from your guild won the roll, do DKP to determine who actually gets the loot. Kinda cheating the system, but it still gives the pug players the same chance at loot as if you were doing it solely on the basis of /roll.
Dave May 14th 2010 3:34PM
We use a system that favors the PUGs. If there is any non-guild interest in an item, then the number of non-guildies plus the number of people bidding on an item are summed up, then we roll a /random 1-X number. For example.
Loot drops, 2 PUGs want it, 3 guildies want it. A /random 1-5 is rolled. If it's 1 or 2 one of the PUGs get it. If not then the person with the highest bid gets it. There are some other intricacies like number of items that can be won and off-spec rolling but you can fill in the blanks to suit your guild.
Some items are off-limits, like marks and primordial saronite, but it's relatively fair. If some guild members express aggravation, remind them that you need to recruit and PUGs are some of the best ways to find out if someone is a good fit for your guild. If you find an excellent player but piss them off during loot distribution, you're not going to easily recruit them.
Anthony May 14th 2010 3:38PM
Janaan, thats a good idea. initial roll for puggies, if a guildie wins roll for main spec, it goes up for dkp.
Long term I think Tyler may have hinted at it in the article. Pug's in friend/family/non raiding guilds may come along every week, and after 1 or 2 weeks of /roll or loot council, they could be phased into a dkp system very effectively. interesting things to think about...
Rob May 14th 2010 3:54PM
I would just take the hit and do a /roll. I had a guild that had a convoluted system such that the guild founders got all the loot, and in that case it made MUCH more sense to PUG, since you had literally no chance to get loot with the guild. Needless to say I left the guild quickly. It's not all about loot, but their system made it clear it was all about seniority. Any guild that penalizes their members and rewards PUGers has their priorities screwed up.
Lastly you need to figure out as a group if you want to A) raid or B) lose some loot to PUGers. Anything else isn't fair. We had a RL who refused to PUG, so shockingly only 1 out of 10 raids would actually run. Needless to say that situation resolved itself when the 5-6 people who actually cared about raiding left the guild.
Sadaye May 14th 2010 5:20PM
I'm part of a guild that regularly has to bring in PUGs to fill out our 25s. We run Suicide Kings, and the reason for this is that it's a real incentive to the good PUGs to join us again. It's a good balance between impartiality, rewarding regular attendees, and fairness. SK has worked really well for us thus far.
Moeru May 14th 2010 7:22PM
Since I discovered SK, Sadaye, I have to agree it's the best loot rule out there. It can work with other loot rules perfectly. It can also go from progression in multiple runs in guild, or simply for a long Ulduar, Naxx or ICC run with PuGs. The only time I don't use it is in one-shot deals, like Malygos. Honestly, anyone wanting fairness and equal loot distribution should look at SK. Also, there's addons that manage it like SKG which I still use when we run big stuff with PuGs or do progression runs week after week.
James May 14th 2010 2:37PM
I think we have all had the situation where it is probably easier to go to the realm fourms and recruit another person than put up with the "this iz my spot cuz you need me!!" guy. I hate the pre-expack lulls... makes the jackasses think that they have free reign :(
Twotimes May 14th 2010 2:44PM
Uncyclopedia FTW.