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5-14-2010 @ 2:36PM
I agree wholeheartedly with rules being rules no matter the environment,but sometimes pugging isn't so easy. What recommendations would you have for a 25 man raiding guild that routinely pulls 19-22 members for raid night, but functions on dkp? pugging isnt really an option with dkp, nor do those that show up want to have their hard earned dkp ignored. Big problem i see many guilds having, including my own.
5-14-2010 @ 2:57PM
That is a very good question, Anthony. Loot distribution rules can be a very tricky thing to handle when you bring a PuG into the mix. If you happen to run a loot council system, then you can usually get away with retaining that form of loot distribution. LC is what my, now formally, guild used and throughout our Naxx days when we were struggling to get members, we continued to use it even when he had PuGs in the raid. There were a few cases where the players were not comfortable with trusting us, but every run that where we did use it went perfectly smooth without any loot disputes at all. You just have to make sure that your council is being as fair as possible when giving stuff out. People will get upset if you are clearly only going to be giving all of the best stuff to your own members, but so long as you spread the wealth around, there should never be any problems.DKP is little harder to deal with. In the case of a DKP based guild, you many want to consider switching to being LC run when running with PuGs or just using an open roll system. A possible solution is to give each PuG member an aggregate amount of DKP based around the average amount that your current players have and follow your loot rules as normal. Say that you usually spend 5 - 20 DKP per item and your raid's average is around 35 DKP. You 'gift' 35 DKP to each PuG that they can then use to bid on items as they want them as they would if they were a normal member of your guild. It would probably be much more difficult to get PuGs to buy into using this method, but it could work.As mentioned, you can also just go with open rolls, but that can usually cause some of your personal raid members to get a bit upset about things, especially if not everyone is on the same level in respects to loot.
5-14-2010 @ 3:20PM
Stop worrying about loot.This might seem a bit callous, but practically speaking -- both as a raid leader and as someone who regularly PUGs raids -- I would highly recommend simply taking the hit and accepting that DKP is not going to happen for loot distribution in those raids. Unless you have a regular set of PUGs that you keep inviting back, you should just switch to a /roll based system.Assuming the players you're pugging are approximately equal to your guild players, you're likely only giving up 20% of the pieces that might drop anyway -- and those players are making it so that you can keep gaining loot, and everything else you need.Establish decent loot rules at the start -- for example, "Mainspec rolls first, offspec rolls second, mainspec priority to those who haven't won anything, tier tokens and saronite stay in guild." Generally speaking, these types of rolls will be acceptable to most PUGs, and while you're PUGging, your guild can keep learning, and gain badges, as well as still picking up most of the loot from the runs. Even if a couple pieces get grabbed by a PUG, you should still have a decent amount of loot progression in guild, and it's much better in any case than taking the night off; badges, practice, and experience working together will help you out in the end.(If the PUGs you're inviting are significantly differently geared than you, you may be bringing the wrong PUGs.)
5-14-2010 @ 3:39PM
I'd suggest finding a few quality players that are willing to run with you all the time, and run on the basis of DKP. Maybe to get those people you'll have to do /roll rules once just to get them hooked, but if it's a good run they very well may be willing to come again.An alternative is to do the /roll, then assuming someone from your guild won the roll, do DKP to determine who actually gets the loot. Kinda cheating the system, but it still gives the pug players the same chance at loot as if you were doing it solely on the basis of /roll.
5-14-2010 @ 3:34PM
We use a system that favors the PUGs. If there is any non-guild interest in an item, then the number of non-guildies plus the number of people bidding on an item are summed up, then we roll a /random 1-X number. For example.Loot drops, 2 PUGs want it, 3 guildies want it. A /random 1-5 is rolled. If it's 1 or 2 one of the PUGs get it. If not then the person with the highest bid gets it. There are some other intricacies like number of items that can be won and off-spec rolling but you can fill in the blanks to suit your guild.Some items are off-limits, like marks and primordial saronite, but it's relatively fair. If some guild members express aggravation, remind them that you need to recruit and PUGs are some of the best ways to find out if someone is a good fit for your guild. If you find an excellent player but piss them off during loot distribution, you're not going to easily recruit them.
5-14-2010 @ 3:38PM
Janaan, thats a good idea. initial roll for puggies, if a guildie wins roll for main spec, it goes up for dkp.Long term I think Tyler may have hinted at it in the article. Pug's in friend/family/non raiding guilds may come along every week, and after 1 or 2 weeks of /roll or loot council, they could be phased into a dkp system very effectively. interesting things to think about...
5-14-2010 @ 3:54PM
I would just take the hit and do a /roll. I had a guild that had a convoluted system such that the guild founders got all the loot, and in that case it made MUCH more sense to PUG, since you had literally no chance to get loot with the guild. Needless to say I left the guild quickly. It's not all about loot, but their system made it clear it was all about seniority. Any guild that penalizes their members and rewards PUGers has their priorities screwed up. Lastly you need to figure out as a group if you want to A) raid or B) lose some loot to PUGers. Anything else isn't fair. We had a RL who refused to PUG, so shockingly only 1 out of 10 raids would actually run. Needless to say that situation resolved itself when the 5-6 people who actually cared about raiding left the guild.
5-14-2010 @ 5:20PM
I'm part of a guild that regularly has to bring in PUGs to fill out our 25s. We run Suicide Kings, and the reason for this is that it's a real incentive to the good PUGs to join us again. It's a good balance between impartiality, rewarding regular attendees, and fairness. SK has worked really well for us thus far.
5-14-2010 @ 7:22PM
Since I discovered SK, Sadaye, I have to agree it's the best loot rule out there. It can work with other loot rules perfectly. It can also go from progression in multiple runs in guild, or simply for a long Ulduar, Naxx or ICC run with PuGs. The only time I don't use it is in one-shot deals, like Malygos. Honestly, anyone wanting fairness and equal loot distribution should look at SK. Also, there's addons that manage it like SKG which I still use when we run big stuff with PuGs or do progression runs week after week.
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