I agree with you, however, you are assuming one thing which I do not agree with.

As a casual raider I normally do pug raids, however, I never have ninja'd loot, nor have I ever dropped group before the RL called it. The people who do either are just asshats, and shouldn't raid, like you said.

If you think all casuals are out to screw over hardcore players, and thus should be "nerfed" I would ask this: why would they continue playing a game that punishes them for playing the only way they can? Should the hardcore raiders be punished because they are hardcore? Should they have their loot nerfed to reflect upon how hardcore they are? After all, nothing says hardcore like downing the LK with gear "worse" than T9.

No, the loot shouldn't be nerfed. Why? Because the hardcore raiders usually did not wait around to get all BiS gear, and made due with what they had. In return they downed more content faster.

It is a trade off, nothing more, nothing less. you still are able to do the "hardcore" stuff, but now the less hardcore are able to do something similar. If it is bragging rights you want, never turn on the buff.

I would like to say I agree with your sentiment, but allow me to play the devil’s advocate.

To Point 1.

Who the hell cares? Are drops at this point in the game really what matters? Hasn’t the ushered in era of LOLCats asking to HAZ WLFARE EPIKS already “cheapened” the accomplishment, if you want to even call it that, of clearing a tier of content? How about this, I promise to beg Blizzard to give you more drops if you promise to put your achievements on your gravestone. It really is just a game, and the desire to reward people because they do it harder is about as ridiculous a request as I have ever heard, but only because we have crossed a line with WoW where we all put way to much value on a person’s gearscore and not enough value on the social aspect of the game. If you, or anyone, is that concerned about drops or achievements, I might suggest games with a much higher difficulty threshold because WoW is a game and not cancer research.

To Point 2

Again, you are right, but if you are having that much trouble with PuGs, then I might suggest you step up your recruiting. Everyday, while reviewing ads on lookingforguild.net, the forums, or podcasts, I see tons of people recruiting for better players with more dedication. Stop grabbing random people to fill your spots because those people are generally morons.

As an example, my dedicated guild of adults had other dedications come up early in Ulduar. Those dedications were a new baby for one couple and a cross country move for the other. As a result, our guild collapsed because we never really needed more than 10-13 people to raid because we all showed up and carried our weight. Every guild on my server, and even many others, all want to do 25 man content. I have inquired into many guilds, but so many of them, even fledgling guilds want to run 25 man content, and I have no clue why. I just haven’t been able to find a guild who says, “we wanna run 10 mans, and we only wanna raid a couple nights a week” because so many of them are aspiring to be players which just aren’t in their character matrix. Your guild should eithr recruit or consider what you want out of your play time and whether it is a reasonable expectation long before you decide to pug Joe “the Random” Plumber and wonder why he drops after the first wipe.

Being honest about your expectations of the game and the players you play with will help alleviate many of these pug problems you are talking about.

it was not my intention to put all "casuals" in the same boat with the asshats, and i don't feel that way. I've met a lot of great puggers that don't have time but are amazing players and know a lot about the tactics.

Re:Bragging rights. It's not really bragging rights i'm going for here.. I guess it's kind of hard to explain. But, you're right, hardcore guilds do not sit around and wait for BiS gear to try the next boss, that's the point of progression. But, a hardcore raider fights for something right? The focus is progression, so you would think the benefit of being in a hardcore guild is "the edge." The "edge" is having better gear than others and being able to push through that next content patch quicker and quicker. And that edge is provided by gear and skill. By the end of this expansion, with 30% buff, a lot of people will be attempting hard modes. (I've also heard that the ICC debuff may be removed at the end?) By the time cata rolls around, everyone will have farmed the best gear possible, which is normally a right reserved for the most hardcore. And now, everyone will have an easier time come Cata.

TBH, i'm not even in a hardcore guild. I consider myself pretty well geared and i have a few BiS non Hardmode pieces. I used to be in a top 10 realm guild and i settled down a bit. So I'm kinda seeing both sides and I guess i just don't see the point of hardcore guilds anymore if they're not fighting for anything aside from maybe getting that 'edge' a couple of weeks before everyone else.

1) . . . and I'm not pissed off, just my opinion. Something to remember is that the "hardcore guilds" have likely been doing full clears of ICC for sometime and are now working on HM's and heroic 25 LK. They ARE getting more gear by the simple virtue that they can clear the entire zone. A lot (read: Most) of guilds are depending on that buff in order to progress through ICC in order to even get to the Lich King. Not only are they getting less gear per week (by virtue of fewer bosses downed) their drops are also not as good since they arent doing HM's. I have an alt in a 10M casual guild that only last week downed PP on normal. Not everyone is in a top 200 guild. Even so, there are still rewards for the hardcore guilds doing hardcore stuff. Last I checked, only a handful of US guilds have downed 25 Heroic LK and gotten access to 1) the Mount and 2) the ilvl 284 weapons he drops. That fight, if you've seen it, is absolutely brutal and no buff this side of the expansion will be big enough to let your average raider go in and roflstomp heroic 25 LK. I mean, holy crap, the guy has 130 Million health . .


2) I really don't blame a 20% zone buff for that. The behavior you're describing has beeen going on the entire expansion. I've seen people leave Naxx at the first wipe, as well as Ulduar and TOC. Heck, it even happens every day in heroics. . . . "OMG U DIED ON GARFORST U FAIL!!"
/votekick
Vote Kick has failed
/leave

Lazy people are lazy, and unfortunately, that's one debuff that can't be cleansed.

I dunno...this argument just seems to contradict itself. You say two things here: 1) The benefit of being in a hardcore guild is [...] having better gear than others and being able to push through that next content patch quicker 2) By the end of this expansion, with 30% buff, a lot of people will be attempting hard modes [and] everyone will have farmed the best gear possible [by the time cata rolls around].

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the "hardcore" guilds still have the edge in finishing this content and getting the best gear "quicker?" That guy flying over the well in Dalaran with his frostwyrm has obviously cleared the content already. If it bothers him that other people might do the same thing with assistance by the time the next expansion arrives, then it seems he didn't really care about pushing through content quicker...he cared about having as few other people clear it as possible.

Speaking of people flying their special mounts above the well, can you fix this Blizzard? Or at least put anti-air ground-to-douche sheeping rockets around the well so we can knock them off their mounts? (+10 points if they fall directly into the sewer.)

I'm always intrigued at perspectives like this, mostly because I never understood them.

As I see it, the reward for being hardcore is that you aren't casual. You have the collective skill to down content before most, and you get the glossy rewards for doing so sooner than others. You can brag about that or not, but that's pretty much the entire benefit of being hardcore -- aside from the most obvious side effect of having epic and egregious amounts of fun. =)

Also, there's nothing inherently exclusive about being hardcore. Anyone with the time can devote a level of commitment to the game that would make them hardcore in a fairly short period of time. Of course, not everyone does this; namely because there's no one right way to play this game.

Ultimately, I think it comes down to empathy. Even the most devout of hardcore raiders today began somewhere. Everyone plays this game however they see fit, and if elements of a given play style (casual, hardcore, whatever) don't gel with you, then the onus is on you to be more selective about who you run with. As a course of action, that's far more commendable than trying to change how others play /their/ game. =)

The fact is the people complaining about the buff have become so complacent in their elitism that they feel threatened that others get to experience the content. They don't get that Bliz has made a way for hardcore and more casual to have the same fun. For them, the fun is looking down on everyone else. Take that away from em and the QQ starts.

i really think you're missing my point, and i tried to re-iterate in a post, but the reply failed.
@jhoover: I am not elitist. I am not trying to be elitist. And as I said in my original post, which is now grayed, i appreciate the sentiment that blizz is passing on. Everyone should be able to see the LK encounter.
I am not in a hardcore guild any more, and I'm simply trying to understand why someone would continue to run in a hardcore guild when it seems there isn't any benefit.
My main point is really about people leaving the raids before they're called, i didn't really want this elitist theme to become a big topic ><
I love the buff. It makes me stronger and my group more efficient at the bosses that we do have on farm. I am simply stating that in a game based on gear and skill, when one of those becomes a lot easier to obtain, the line between hardcore and casual becomes thin.