Lichborne: Frost tanking 101

This week on Lichborne, we're looking at yet another endangered death knight play style: frost tanking. Frost tanking is one of those strangely misunderstood specs in that many players consider it to be the only tanking spec, or at least the only viable one. This is based on the old pre-beta outline of the death knight class that dedicated frost as the tank tree. Blizzard decided to allow all three trees to tank well before even the alpha was over, but the myth of frost tanking supremacy persisted. Now, there really will be only one tank tree, but instead of frost, it's going to be blood. That means that if you want to experience the original death knight tanking tree, you only have a few more months max to do it. That's why we have this guide.
This a 101 guide, so the usual disclaimers apply. This is meant to get people well on their way to being a viable frost tank, but it's not a be all, end all guide, so there are additional tricks and talenting tweaks experienced tanks will know and pick up. These are just the basics.
Frost tanking pros
- Excellent damage reduction from multiple talents
- Howling Blast is excellent AoE snap threat
Frost tanking cons
- Little to no group or raid utility
Stats to look out for
- Defense rating Pushing critical strikes off your incoming damage is one of the most important steps you can take to become a full-fledged tank. To do that against heroic dungeon bosses, you'll need 535 defense. To do it against raid bosses, you'll need 540. Mind you, that is defense skill, not defense rating, which is what is on most gear. You'll need 4.92 defense rating at 80 to get a single point of defense skill. You can also get 25 points of defense skill by using Rune of the Stoneskin Gargoyle or Rune of the Nerubian Carapace. Those are actual skill points, not rating, so it will be a very significant boost. It's also worth noting that while 540 and 535 are the defense "caps" for getting critically hit, defense points above that are still useful, since they provide dodge and parry rating. You'll be better off getting raw dodge and parry rating instead, but if you squeak a little past 540, don't sweat it too much; those points are still useful.
- Stamina Stamina means more health. Much like blood tanks, your general goal as a frost tank should be to get the highest effective health possible. If you're at a loss as to what to gear for, it's very hard to go wrong with stacking stamina.
- Armor Armor mitigates a percentage of all incoming physical damage. For physical damage boss fights, it's invaluable. After stamina, you're going to be wanting a ton of this. It's also valuable in that it does not really diminish in value as you get more armor, because every percentage point of reduction becomes that much more valuable. Finally, more armor means more of an armor buff from Unbreakable Armor. Always keep items with lots of armor handy.
- Dodge rating Dodging allows you to completely avoid incoming physical attacks. That means you survive longer and your healer has less work to do. In other words, it's very handy to have. Dodge is subject to diminishing returns, but for the most part, a beginning tank shouldn't have to worry about stacking so much dodge he reaches the cap, so it's pretty safe to equip dodge gear as you find it.
- Parry rating Like dodge, parrying also allows you to completely avoid incoming physical attacks. Like dodge, it is also affected by diminishing returns. Since death knights get parry from strength to begin with thanks to Forceful Deflection, they actually don't need to worry much about grabbing parry rating and should instead focus on dodge, especially when gemming.
- Hit rating and expertise rating You can't gather threat if you don't hit your target. While it's not essential, it's still very helpful to try to get to the 8% special attack plateau for hit rating, and the 26 expertise plateau to prevent the enemy from dodging your attacks. You don't really want to give up too many valuable defense stats to hit those goals unless your ability to keep threat is abysmal, but don't eschew hit and expertise if you find them on gear either.
- Strength The more strength you have, the more threat you'll get. In addition, death knights get a chance to parry from strength. That said, you don't really have to go out of your way to get strength. You should get more than enough it just from grabbing good tank gear.
Notes on weapon and disease choices
Before we get into the PvE talent builds, we should discuss the differences between two-handed tanking and dual wield tanking. Two-handed tanking is still very viable with frost, simply because your top DPS doesn't matter. Two-handed tanking will still allow you to keep adequate threat. In fact, it's arguably superior to dual wield tanking simply because it gives you more talent points to work with, since you aren't obligated to take Nerves of Cold Steel and Threat of Thassarian.That said, dual wield tanking is still solid, as long as you take the dual wield talents. That said, be careful about what weapons you choose. While it may be tempting to choose tank one-handers for the stats, they are not always the optimal choice. The fast attack speed and lower high-end damage on them means that you will not put out as much threat as you need. You're much better off using DPS weapons with slow speeds and high damage. Parry gibbing is also a concern with fast weapons, though not as much as you'd think, since most high-end bosses no longer use the parry-haste mechanic and healer output is usually high enough to compensate for the few bosses that still do.
The other choice you have is whether to go with a single-disease or double-disease rotation. Since Glacier Rot and Tundra Stalker provide a large amount of extra damage potential to Frost Fever and targets infected with Frost Fever, many frost tanks find that they can put out enough threat simply by using one disease. This method generally involves glyphing Howling Blast and using it to keep Frost Fever up. This method can be useful in that it greatly simplifies your rotation and provides quicker up-front aggro on AoE pulls, but it does provide less sustained threat. With two diseases, you need to build up a bit more, but you'll have more powerful Obliterates to provide more solid sustained single target threat.
Basic PvE talent builds
Your weapon choice, as mentioned above, matters a lot for your talent voice, since a two-handed tanker will have six more talent points free than a dual wield tanker. This, in turn, allows for a more flexible build with a chance to pick up a few more toys and useful talents. For a beginner's two-hand build, I'd suggest something like this.I've put the extra points primarily in Scent of Blood (for more runic power for Frost Strikes), Epidemic (for easier rotations), Deathchill (for snap aggro with a crit Howling Blast) and Acclimation, for the defense, but you can pretty much switch around any of those points your hearts content, be it to fill Acclimation for better defense or fill out Two-handed Weapon Specialization for extra single-target threat.
Dual wield tanking, of course, comes at a slightly higher price, since you will need to spend six points specifically bringing your weapons up to snuff. Your finished product will look something like this. Here, your easiest option for tweaking is to remove points from Epidemic or Chill of the Grave if you want to grab Deathchill or Hungering Cold for the snap aggro potential or Acclimation for the magic defense.
Rotations and rune usage
For single-target tanking, you'll essentially want to use the frost DPS single-target priority system:I. If Killing Machine procs, use Frost Strike. If Rune Strike is lit up, use it.
II. Make sure Frost Fever is up.
III. Make sure Blood Plague is up.
IV. Use Obliterate.
V. Use Blood Strike (if you have blood runes up and don't need one for Pestilence).
VI. Use Frost Strike.
VII. If Rime has procced, use Howling Blast.
VIII. If all your runes are down and you don't have the runic power for Frost Strike or Rune Strike, use Horn of Winter for the extra runic power.
For multiple target tanking, your proper rotation will depend on whether you're doing a double-disease rotation or single-disease with the Glyph of Howling Blast.
For double-disease, your rotation will looking something like this:
Death and Decay->Icy Touch->Plague Strike->Pestilence->Howling Blast->Blood Boil->Pestilence
If you're trying out a single-disease rotation, your rotation will look like this:
Death and Decay->Howling Blast->Blood Boil
After that initial throw-down, alternate with Blood Boils, Howling Blasts and Obliterate as your runes refresh.
In the case of multiple targets, saving your Killing Machine procs (or your Death Chill button, if you have the talents) for Howling Blast if possible. You'll get some pretty sweet snap aggro that way. For runic power dumping, use Rune Strike when it's available, Frost Strike when it's not. Rime procs should be used immediately so as not to waste them.
On glyphs
There's a lot of good threat-bearing major glyphs for frost tanking. My personal setup is to go with these three: Glyph of Howling Blast is mandatory for single-disease tanking, since the whole strategy is based around using Howling Blast to apply Frost Fever. Glyph of Obliterate is great for single-target threat, as is Glyph of Frost Strike, since more Frost Strikes is more threat. If you feel like you need more defense, you can replace one of the above glyphs with Glyph of Unbreakable Armor.On gems and enchants
Again, you can pretty much following the gemming and enchanting advice in the blood tank guide. In the case of dual wield weapon enchants, the argument is the same, only applied to the one-handed versions of the runes, namely Rune of Swordbreaking and Rune of The Nerubian Carapace.Filed under: Death Knight, (Death Knight) Lichborne
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
wrendil May 25th 2010 1:58PM
Still...i just respec'd to this and I like it. Its outside of what I normally do. Worth a look if you like to try things differently.
ewrobo Jul 5th 2010 12:50PM
I have added some links to my talent builds on wowhead's talent builder:
http://www.wowhead.com/talent#j0EZhxexA0Ikc0fzzAo0x:oaTMVm (Tron's 10/56/5 DW Frost Beast-Threat)
And to clarify my rotation: I open with Deathchill, (Glyphed HB) OR (Glyphed [+2pc bonus] DND) depending on what the un-talented DND cooldown is at. Follow with Blood Boil, Rune Tap, Blood Boil. By this time my runes and HB are coming off CD and i start with HB/BB/Obliterate (to proc Rime) on availability.
During this time you are tab-tapping Runestrike depending on needed threat increases per-mob.
With this spec I find that DND, even glyphed, does not make or brake a pull. If it's off cd, I use it, it provides a large amount of overhead in my threat for aoe pulls. However, I don't worry about it; as long as I am throwing melee at my mobs I am proccing Killing Machine like crazy.
Notable mentality about Rime:
-On (AoE) If I proc Rime while Killing Machine is up, I will immediately Howling Blast. This allows for a HUGE extra threat burst which is applied to all enemies within HB range.
-On (AoE) If I proc Rime without Killing Machine, I will wait until every rune is on CD to Howling Blast. My frost tanking setup for AoE mobs is very bursty, by allowing my runes to be used up not only am I ensuring that I will be taking 5% less damage due to Blade Barrier but allowing an extra AoE damaging attack in a period where I normally would be outputting no direct AoE threat.
-On (AoE) I Only use Deathchill to open on packs, and obviously if Killing Machine was still procced I would not use Deathchill
What I feel this allows me to accomplish:
-Simplify my rotation. In reality I am only looking for issues in individual mob-threat levels for Obliterate. The Howling Blast Glyph universally applies a buffed attack-speed-reducing primer which strengthens my primary threat generation attacks (frost).
-For bosses (and larger mobs) I will apply a second disease, but only in the event where I would want to increase my damage done by Obliterate.
-Easy to think as a "Macro-Tank", rather than a "Micro-Tank"
IT SHOULD BE NOTED THAT EXCELLENT GEAR IS REQUIRED TO MAKE THIS A VIABLE MT SPEC AND YOUR WEAPONS SHOULD BE CORRECT (2.6MH/2.6OH OR 2.6MH/1.5OH).
malachi Jul 9th 2010 12:00PM
Shouldnt your single target rotation have more IT in it? IT is really hardcore burst threat amt?? Other than that, great thread.
feniks9174 May 25th 2010 11:52AM
Another thing, and this slightly off topic, but while we're talking about Frost. .
I jumped into a pug for the weekly last night and noticed as we zoned in that a DK from one of the server's top guilds was in there with us. That didn't impress me in and of itself, since my main (a warlock) is in the other top guild, but his gear was noticeably better than mine (my dk is just an alt now . . *sniff*) so I did an /inspect out of curiousity . . . And I noticed that he's wearing the 1.5 speed axe from (I think) 25 Marrowgar.
/confused to say the least . . So I asked him what the deal was. He responded by saying that "speed doesn't matter anymore, only weapon DPS. The guys at EJ have been saying that for some time".
/very confused . . . When did this happen? So I asked my guilds DK class officer and, IMO, the best DK on the server. And he, more or less agreed with me, but said that the situations where the other DK would be right are pretty few and far between.
Can someone, anyone, explain this to me? The guy did beat me on DPS for the boss fight, but since I use Skada, I couldn't tell if it was because he was stayig on the boss while I hosed down adds or something. I also remember stoney's article a while back on weapon Speed for enhance shamans and how a fast ilvl 258 dagger is a minor upgrade over a slow ilvl 187 rep reward mace. Since DK's strikes work under largely the same mechanics, it makes sense that the same rules would apply. After all, we've been saying slow/slow for over a year now. But . . . He did beat me. And I consider myself pretty dang good.
crschmidt May 25th 2010 11:58AM
Enhance Shaman weapon speed is special because of Windfury procs, I believe. The ICD is centered entirely around 2.6 speed weapons, so anything that isn't a 2.6 speed weapon is probably not an ideal enhance weapon.
In general, many abilities are based around a 'standard' weapon speed -- so even if they say something like "causes weapon damage plus 187", the "weapon damage" is basically configured to be "weapon DPS * fixed multiplier".
http://www.wowwiki.com/Normalization is an article on the topic, though the list of 'normalized' vs. 'not normalized' is not particularly comprehensive. Blood Strike/Oblierate are explicitly mentioned, however, so there's a chance at least that the weapon speed is not particularly important for Death Knights (nearly so much as the actual damage).
Pantyraider May 25th 2010 12:01PM
The ilvl difference would have to be rather large for you to want to use a 1.5 speed weapon. The mechanics of Threat of Thassarian make our special strikes hit with both weapons. For example, if you had to choose from one of these: http://www.wowhead.com/compare?items=50759;50810 you would be silly to use the axe as your specials would hit significantly harder with the mace.
And EJ still says slow: "you will want to get weapons that have the highest possible average damage. In most cases, this means looking for a slower (>2.5) speed weapon."
KPB May 25th 2010 12:17PM
Weapon normalization doesn't mean that triggered attacks don't still favor slower weapons. An instant attack based on weapon damage that occurs every x seconds will still favor slow weapons even after being normalized. For a frost dps this means that Obliterate, plague strike, blood strike and frost strike will do more damage with slower weapons with the same dps. Icy touch isn't based on weapon damage so won't be affected either way. The only thing that would seem to possibly favor faster weapons, that could counter the loss of damage from all the strikes and Obliterate, is Killing Machine. I'm not sure if it uses a PPM mechanic or a fixed proc rate. If it is PPM then faster weapons don't help but if it is fixed proc rate then faster weapons would result in more KM procs which would result in more icy touch/frost strike crits. Even if KM is a flat percentage proc rate I don't expect it overcome the loss of dps from all the other areas.
Tom May 25th 2010 12:33PM
The two-handed axe from Marrowgar 25 is a fine weapon. The 1.5 speed one-handed axe from Marrowgar 10, however... yeah, that's a bizarre weapon for a DK.
If he did good DPS with that I'm sure he'd be a monster with a decent weapon.
feniks9174 May 25th 2010 1:48PM
@ Tom - I got my weapons mixed up. The axe he was using was the 1.5 speed Scourgeborne Waraxe from Gunship 25. This actually worked out nicely, since it is almost identical in terms of ilvl and green stats and ilvl as the Bloodvenom Blade (my main hand, his off hand). It made things easy to manipulate in simcraft.
@ Panty and KPB - Yeah, that was my understanding as well. The thing that was giving me the most confusionwas the fact that he beat me in DPS. I was expecting to absolutely trounce him on the meters because of his weapon choice, but I didn't . . . and threw me into this existential DK crisis.
Anyway, I've been running sims for like the last hour and have come up with some interesting, if not entirely unexpected results.
First, I ran my gear as it is as a baseline. Then substituted his fast MH for my Slow MH (as I said above, almost identical in green stats so it made for a nice comparison - the only difference was that one had hit, the other had crit so I just fudged that part and to isolate weapon speed as the only change) and I saw . . . *drumroll* . . . a 300 DPS loss. I then ran my gear again with fast/fast weapons and saw a 450 DPS loss.
Likewise, I did the same for his gear. First with no changes as a baseline, then his gear with slow/slow and saw an equal 300 DPS GAIN.
So, the conclusions I've drawn from this are 1) weapon speed is still important, but not as huge as I was expecting (i figured a 1K+ loss, tbh), 2) I was right and he is wrong . . . neener neener . . . and 3) because of the less significant DPS loss than I was expecting, it really just means that I don't suck, my gear does. While I'm rocking the Banner of Victory from ToC5 Normal, Grim Toll and boots from EoE 25, he's decked out in 251-277 gear and sporting Death's Choice. The sims I ran show that, even with a fast weapon, he still has 700 DPS on me just from gear. He got me by just about 1K last night, but I'm fairly sure he just stood at the boss while I was trying to mow down adds (we had an entirely melee group so no ranged were there to pick off bots).
Thanks for the help and validation, guys. I was beginning to think I was going crazy.
KPB May 25th 2010 3:44PM
That is a smaller dps drop than I would have expected. On my enhance shaman changing from Gutbuster to Bone Warden's Splitter drops dps by ~1k even tho the Bone Warden's Splitter has haste which is currently simming to be my best stat so it has better stats on it. The off hand only ends up being 300-400dps.
To put it a different way, for the off hand an iLevel 277 fast weapon, rib spreader 1.8speed , is ~ equal to a ilevel 245 weapon from normal ToC 25man and for the main hand it ranks about the same as an iLevel 213 weapon like Angry Dread. An even faster 1.5 speed is even worse.
crschmidt May 25th 2010 12:04PM
One of the things I've noticed on my baby DK is that it's not particularly difficult to change up your talents a bit and grab Rune Tap, for a 10% heal in exchange for one blood rune. Granted, 10% is probably not going to make a difference on its own, but as an extra 'Oh shit!" button, it feels like it has some value. Is this talent worth taking -- basically trading ~200 AP (1 point in Bladed Armor) for another cooldown, or are the existing Frost cooldowns/rotation such that you'd never have a rune available to use it when you needed it anyway?
mechabahamut May 25th 2010 12:08PM
Ah, I still Frost tank. Actually, I have never deviated from the Frost tank style. I love the flavor of it. It breaks my heart that Blizz is getting rid of the Frost tank, and that is why I will continue to frost tank until Cata comes.
I just switched from DW tank to 2hander, and I actually really like both. It's easy to switch between the two (just a few gold!) for the rotations are the same.
I use single disease rotations on groups of targets (trash generally) and double diseases on bosses.
I do tank ICC 10 and 25, and have had no problems with being a frostie, especially in my guild. Although I do want to fight trade when the subject comes up that "Blood is the only real tanking spec now." But then again, no one wins in trade channel arguments.
wrendil May 25th 2010 12:06PM
After the def cap, when DW I always did Rune of FC on the main hand and Razorice or Cinderglacer on the off hand. Razorice for single target, and cinderglacer on AoE stuff.
Tom May 25th 2010 12:22PM
Even after the Defense *minimum* Nerubian Carapace is still want you want for tanking. In addition to the Avoidance, each one also gives you +1% Stamina!
FC/RI might help with threat, but if you're having threat problems this isn't the way to address them.
Rob May 25th 2010 12:07PM
As far as the gear stats, its all true, but mostly you dont have a choice in what gear you take. You want tank gear, you dont want shield block. For the weapon you want strength. What you do have a choice in is enchants (you want stamina/armor), and gems. Gems get interesting, I personally gem for expertese/hit until cap then avoidance, unless its a blue, which gets stamina. At lower gear levels, gem for defense then stamina. At higher gear levels threat then stamina. At high gear levels the socket bonuses become worth it, at lower gear levels they really aren't.
Tom May 25th 2010 12:28PM
This is beyond the scope of this article, but if you're tanking modern content then you should be gemming for effective health. Blues get Stamina, Reds get Agility/Stamina if the socket bonus is +9 or +12 Stamina, and Yellows get Defense/Stamina if the bonus is +12 Stamina.
I suppose I can understand gemming for hit, but it really shouldn't be an issue if you're in ICC. Expertise can be nice for threat, but I wouldn't go out of my way to cap it.
Tom May 25th 2010 12:28PM
I meant that in response to Rob.
Elder May 25th 2010 12:52PM
I'll just be happy when I stop hearing "U shud B frozt tanx nut Blud, blud sux".
You may be saying, "How often can he REALLY meet people who spell/type that badly, he must be exaggerating."
I admit, I've only met one player who said those exact words, but the dirty bastich kept saying it. He follows me around, using multiple toons, stalking me, taunting me about how I should be frost...
He moved to my town and keeps putting typewritten notes on my door that read "Z0MG U SUX. Ur Lawn gnome shud were blu pantz nut greenz! L0lz"
He married my sister just so he could stand up at the wedding and say "R0FlMA0, Ur sister shud be redhed nut bond, dud. U Sux. im gunna totally hax her tonite!"
(don't ask how he could leetspeak out loud, he did it. Roll with me on this.)
Hurry up Cataclysm, end this stereotype of the frost only tank, I can't take another Thanksgiving of "D00d, U Sux, Ur turk3y Shud B Fried, nut Roazded, FoodN00b!"
Deathgodryuk May 25th 2010 6:26PM
It's odd that I keep seeing people saying that people think that Frost is the only viable tanking spec. As a Frost tank, all I ever hear/see is that Blood is the only viable tanking spec and that anyone who isn't Blood doesn't know what they're doing, to the point that it's starting to get pretty obnoxious.
I suppose either way you go ignoramus' will be ignoramus'.
thutch77 May 28th 2010 4:25PM
LOL