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5-28-2010 @ 6:14PM
In talking with people - I honestly think if they kill AVR they should kill DBM (and the rest of its ilk) as well. Why? Because some of these fights are near impossible without those tools - Blizzard should fix that.And if you don't believe that - tell me - where do you draw the line on crutches you can use in content?
5-28-2010 @ 6:17PM
Fights right now are as complex as they are BECAUSE they allowed mods like Bigwigs and DBM to become so ingrained in the playerbase. If they had allowed the same with AVR which even drew you safe areas in the game world without you even having to judge it, they'd have had to account for that when designing future content. I for one am happy they nipped this in the bud.
5-28-2010 @ 6:18PM
Apparently the line is drawn when you can draw lines.>.>
5-28-2010 @ 6:36PM
I like "Silversol"'s comment. =)
5-28-2010 @ 6:44PM
DBM tells you when, but AVR tells you where. And in a game where positioning can spell the difference between life and death, it really matters. Plus, bosses usually have their abilities on timers, so DBM just adds more convenience than the raid lead running a stopwatch and telling people that the boss was going to use an ability after a certain interval.Besides, bosses shout out something when they're using an ability anyway.
5-28-2010 @ 6:56PM
DBM is just short of that. There are fights where it tells you the range you need to be from other players. DBM tells you to move out of the fire etc. I still think augmentation is augmentation - no matter if its a text warning, or a drawing on the screen.
First off, I believe Blizzard has stated somewhere that they designed current raid encounters around players using mods like DBM. That accounts for why fights seem much more difficult without it. This alone brushes the topic of Blizzard making mods necessary and I won't start that debate here.As for the line on which crutches you can use in raid content, I personally think that there are two rules that (raid) mods have to obey to be okay. They cannot make decisions for you, or allow you to do something that you cannot already do with the default interface. The first rule, decision making, is fairly straight forward and hard to argue against. An example of this type of mod would be the original de-cursive where you could click a single button and it would de-curse everyone within range as long as you kept clicking. The mod is deciding for you who to de-curse and it what order to do it. You can probably see how this could also be abused in "rotations" that are basically a priority list.The second rule, providing new information, is a little less clear cut. This is where a lot of the ambiguity comes into play; as you can enhance the information given, or display it in more convenient ways as long as it is there to begin with. This is where I think DBM is let off the hook and AVR is not so lucky. Let me explain:This may surprise you but everything DBM does is available to the average player through the default interface, it would just be nearly impossible to coordinate it all as well as the mod. You can set up timers in game, but DBM labels them and starts/stops them automatically as well as displays them for everyone to see. This is simply enhancing the given feature as you could coordinate timers having different people start them for different abilities and simply communicate very well, but this would be, as I said earlier, nearly impossible (and probably more than should be expected of people playing the game.) DBM makes raids much easier, no doubt, but only through enhancing something already in the game (and being capable of perfect coordination.)AVR, however, can draw actual in-game distances. It is literally impossible to know exactly how far you are from something else in the default game. (This is where you cry fowl saying the DBM also has a range monitor. DBM's does exactly what spells do for you, it tells you when someone is in range of a helpful spell. You could target someone and wait for a spell to light up letting you know they are in range, but that is unrealistic and extremely inconvenient.) AVR's range circles let you know exact distances, as well as the distance to being within range. If it helps, DBM works like a switch with to settings: in range, and out of range, AVR lets you know at what point the switch will change without actually changing it. This is something that without the mod you can only guess at, and by now probably fairly accurately, but it is still a guess and not an exact, absolutely accurate number that you can see. This is why I believe AVR was banned, not because it told you where about to stand, but because it said exactly where.That may have been an awfully long-winded explanation, but I think the "line" that was crossed was ambiguous enough to warrant it. (And of course, feel free to disagree.)
5-28-2010 @ 7:02PM
And of course I catch a typo right after hitting post. It should read:"If it helps, think of DBM like a switch with two settings: in range, and out of range, while AVR lets you know at what point the switch will change without actually switching it."This also acts as a TL;DR for my post about the difference.
5-28-2010 @ 7:46PM
DBM uses the combat log to check the events that occurs on boss fights, like boss emotes, abilities names or damage names to know if you're standing on the fire for example. Also, you can check the duration of abilities and it's effects (radius of effect, damage, etc) in sites like wowwiki, wowhead, thottbot, etc. It's only a matter of programming and some formulae to use that information and print it on the UI in a friendly way (and I make emphasis on PRINTING ON THE UI). It simply takes the information already available to the player and makes it more clear and understandable. This is not even 100% accurate; i've seen timers go off before something actually happens.AVR goes even further than this. Not only can it show you all this info but it also DRAWS POLYGONS ON THE 3D WORLD. This kind of alteration is in no way permitted by Blizzard or would be (or should be), from a design point of view. I even think it violates de TOS or EULA or whatever Blizzard has, but I don't want to go there. It's not the same an auditive "RUN AWAY LITTLE GIRL" with a flashy text that doesn't directly tells you WHERE to run, or a "MALLEABLE GOO NEAR YOU" that only indicates you should move from there, than a BIG CIRCLE that directly SHOWS where NOT TO STAND. That kind of help even eliminates the need of completely understand the fight mechanics.I'm glad they're shutting it off. It's a shame that the drawing part of the addon (for strategy purpouses) is going away too.And I'm 100% with the Author. If addons like this exists is because Blizzard needs to give more information to the players regarding events on boss fights. Designing encounters having DBM addons in mind to do this job is not a good way to go, and it opens the door to addons like AVR, IMHO.
5-28-2010 @ 7:48PM
@CollixI've never heard that Blizzard designs encounters with that intent and I've been to every single dungeons and raids panel at every single Blizzcon in history - I honestly think that if a product (game other otherwise) is unplayable without a 3rd party addon you really are doing it wrong - and your talking to someone who has tons of addons (including AVR, Decursive, DBM and everything else that will give me an edge on this).If I've learned anything from AVR its how much we rely on stupid crap like this to get through this content and I think its really time Blizzard needs own up to it.
5-28-2010 @ 8:24PM
I was unable to find the direct quote from Blizzard that they design encounters with mods like DBM in mind, but the general consensus was that they had said it at some time. That's kind of a different argument though, which is why I chose to break it off as a separate paragraph and label it as such, so as not to dilute my main point.The main point of my post was in regards to where the line of acceptability can be drawn, and it is that Blizzard doesn't want you to be able to measure distances. This one I can back up: "We purposely do not make it easy for mods to estimate range because we want that to be a test of player skill and not have the mods play for you." ... "Areas, cones, chains and spells that just go from one caster to one target all work a little bit differently. You cannot use them effectively as rulers." -Ghostcrawler (July 2009)Apparently using spells (and DBMs range check) is not accurate enough to be in violation of this.
5-29-2010 @ 1:38AM
Blizzard has never said they design content around DBM and similar addons. In fact they have often made changes so as to make mods that have become ingrained among some of the player base (rouge weapon switching, simplifying Affliction's rotation in early Wrath to slightly downplay the need for DoT timers, etc) less necessary. In the two aforementioned cases, the developers made explicit reference to their design philosophy that players should not have to rely on any mod in order to play their class well.That being said, I believe they've said something to the effect of "All bets are off for Heroic mode." Given some of the heroic mode mechanics, particularly encounters like Yogg-0 in its original incarnation, I find it hard to imagine the encounter designers NOT assuming that every member of the raid would shortly have all the periodic boss abilities on a timer with appropriate bells and whistles.For me that's fine since mods like DBM are impossible to break without affecting most any combat related mod, and allowing boss timers lets the encounter designers tune heroic mode content appropriately. If positioning and movement didn't have as tight of margins as they do for heroic mode, there might be a temptation to increase the difficulty simply by upping the overall raid dps requirements. That's interesting every now and then but not for every encounter.
5-29-2010 @ 2:07AM
Couls someone actually confirm that the method they're using to break AVR isn't actually going to break the range features of all mods please? Because without that knowledge, people can't really say that Blizzard are or are not ignoring DBM and co.The reason I ask is because the method theya re using toe break AVR involves removing the game feature of returning values to the client regarding ranges between objects. It is my understand that it's this very system that makes /range work in DBM, and even makes features like range fader in Pitbull work.Any chance of someone confirming this before shouting off "Blizzard are ignoring DBMs ability to tell people where to stand!".
5-29-2010 @ 2:19AM
Found that blue post. This was a real b---- to find, but I did it. I needed it because I made a similar comment with some guildies who responded like Verit.GM: Nethaera"Of course there are some mods that people see as "must haves" that we may not think meet that definition, but we're always open to continued constructive feedback in order to improve the game as a whole. We neither want things too impossible to achieve without a mod or too trivial when a mod is added. It's a balancing act on a high wire while riding a unicycle."The entire list of blue posts about the discussion can be found at http://blue.mmo-champion.com/t/21043890254/could-you-play-wow-without-addons.In short, Blizzard does tweak things around mods. Perhaps you shouldn't be so high and mighty Verit. Not all of us have the disposable income or free time to attend certain events as much as we'd like to, however that doesn't mean we are out of the loop.
5-29-2010 @ 2:51AM
@Paul: The camera will no longer give co-ordinates as to where it is.
5-29-2010 @ 8:10AM
Since current content is made with DBM in mind of course they can't ban in. As a tank it would be an nightmare on LK HC to not know when Soul Reaper (already hard-hitting LK gets 100% extra attack speed followed by a massive 60k shadow spell) hits since it really requires you to pop a CD a second before it hits on heroic. Would require near-superhuman reflexes from not only the tank but also the healers if you couldn't use a timer for it.
5-29-2010 @ 2:16PM
@AnzorThat doesn't say anything about them specifically designing content around requiring mods - which is something I've said they have never said (and you back me up!). My argument (and a lot of high end raiders I've talked to totally agree) is that a good chunk of this content is impossible without them because a good chunk of it is based around split second reaction (in other words - if you don't know a boss effect is coming [and your not using a stopwatch] and where to stand you'll die instantly).The GM in that link actually backs my argument up, however it seems Blizzard doesn't actually do anything about it. This was worse in Burning Crusade - it wasn't until Nihilium (now Ensidia and at the time the number one guild on Earth) complained that Gruul and Magtheridon being two of the hardest bosses in the game that Blizzard redesigned them - not that you needed a mod for either of these bosses, but it just shows how proactive Blizzard is at tuning content.
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