Officers' Quarters: Mailbox roundup
by Scott Andrews 
May 31st 2010 at 1:00PM
Here at Officers' Quarters I receive a number of e-mails every week that don't get featured in the column. Sometimes they are too personal and the sender requests that they do not appear on the site. Others are topics I've already addressed. Some are questions that don't require a long and detailed response and thus don't have quite enough depth to merit an entire column. This week I am featuring a few of these latter e-mails with the common theme of loot. If you think the topic requires more discussion than I've given it, tell us about it below!
Culling the Strong
Scott,
I am a part of a raiding guild which has been having a lot of growing pains. I have been with this guild for several years and many of the new players that we get are very poor players in general. I can often out dps someone in my same class running with my spec who has better gear. My guild has a loot policy which gears the lower dps players first in an effort to help progression, even if they have better overall gear than me.
I have decided to start looking for another guild and wanted to know if it is ok to stay in my guild while applying to another guild so I can still raid or if I should leave now so that I do not take badges and gear that could go to helping out the guild I am in?
Anonymous
I can sum up this loot policy in two words: rewarding failure. I don't blame you for leaving. If you're definitely going to gquit, the honest thing to do is to tell your officers that you are applying to other guilds. You could even do them a favor and tell them why, so they understand that their policies are pushing quality players out. Say this in private so you don't stir up public drama. Then let them decide if they want you in raids until you leave or if they want you to pack your bags immediately.
If you're undecided about leaving, then it may be better to keep your applications private for now and only reveal your intention to quit once you've made that decision. Keep in mind, however, that some guilds check rivals' websites to see if their players are app'ing around. If you get caught this way, you should expect a negative reaction. In the meantime, what you do about loot depends on the system. If you have unspent DKP that you've earned, you have the right to spend it. If your guild just rolls for loot, you may want to pass on items that other players want.
Good luck finding a new guild!
A Helpful Guild
Scott,
I just yesterday had a problem with my guild that I've been very happy with, I got Battered Hilt out of Forge of Souls and announced my happiness in guild chat. I was asked if I was going to sell it *they go for 8k-10k on my server* I said Hell yes I'm going to. While shouting in Trade Chat a guildie on an alt character messaged me and asked if I would sell it to him, I gave him a discount of 6000 as everyone in trade chat was shouting with me saying 10k. Later that day GM and several other core raid members starting yelling at me because I "Sold" the item instead of giving it for free and how "we are a helpful guild" and I was being a douchebag for not giving it to the person for free. How he has limited internet and can't do raids with us and how I should have been nicer to give it to him for free.
As they were yelling at me and calling me all sorts of unpleasant things they invite me to group for our normal ICC raid night. Is it me, should I have given it to them for free? Confused and not sure what to do, stay in guild with people I've had a blast with in vent, or move to another guild I have friends with and get to another guild and become another core member. They say that the whole reason they are pissed is because I sold it to him and should have given it for free, but he messaged me offering to buy it not the other way around, he's been in guild since the beginging and should have known "guildies give for free" as I've only been in like 3 weeks.
I think you got a pretty raw deal here. You've only been in the guild for a few weeks. You can't be expected to know the guild's culture yet. When a member approaches you offering to buy something from them, how are you supposed to know that such things are frowned on? Is this policy in writing somewhere?
Certainly you could have asked an officer before selling, but I don't think that's something anyone would normally do for a private transaction between guild members. Furthermore, you did sell it for less than market price on your server, so it's not like you were trying to take advantage of the buyer.
If they won't drop the issue and you'd like to remain in this guild, I'd recommend offering to return the money. It's not worth 6000 gold to be the focal point for abuse. However, such an over-the-top reaction is not an indication of a happy future for this guild or your place in it. Thus, you may want to shop around for a community that's a bit less judgmental.
For the officers involved, I would recommend setting down your policies and making sure new members are aware of them rather than resorting to guilt trips and name-calling.
The Abyss Gazes Also
Scott,
I'm the only officer in a guild that's falling apart, our guild leader along with several officers have left/are leaving the guild. A couple days before things started to unravel, I'd talked to the guild leader and told him that if the guild was going to fall apart that I was going to take the abyss crystals I helped put in the guild bank. I was told by him that it was ok, so when things started to fall apart i took the crystals I put in the bank as I was the official disenchanter for our raids.
I was later asked by a former officer of the guild why I took the items and was called a ninja. My question is should I put them back in the guild bank with no idea what's going to happen to them or should I keep them. As it stands there's a member of the guild that's wanting to become the new guild leader but I'm still uncertain of the right actions to take there
Uncertain officer
Hi, UO. I'm wondering why you feel like you have a personal claim to those crystals. Is it just because you DE'ed them? Your guildmates worked just as hard to down those bosses, so in my opinion they belong to the guild, not you. Your former guild leader apparently thought differently, and he's entitled to do so.
Regardless, I don't think it's fair to call you a ninja. You asked for the crystals from the person in charge at the time and you acted on the answer you were given. You did not steal them or obtain them through deception.
A better solution, if the guild does disband, would be to distribute the crystals evenly among the remaining raiding members. If the guild survives, the crystals should remain in the bank for member use (including you, if you stay). Either way, allowing one player to take them all isn't the right way to handle the situation as far as I'm concerned.
/salute
Send Scott your guild-related questions, conundrums, ideas, and suggestions at scott@wow.com. You may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters!Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Bronwyn May 31st 2010 1:13PM
Have to 100% agree with your advice to UO- we had something very similar happen when our guild fell apart and it was really upsetting. The original GM- who had left and then come back- just took a bunch of the most valuable stuff out of the guild bank and then server transferred, his reasoning that "He was GM so it was HIS." Then the new GM took all the bank gold before leaving the guild, reasoning that the old GM had told him he could.
The point being that even though you can probably not call the person a ninja for doing what they did, it's still incredibly unfair to the rest of the people in the guild, especially when you really can't say that one person has claim to that sort of thing.
Bronwyn May 31st 2010 1:14PM
I do wonder why a "former officer" is asking if he's no longer a part of the guild it really shouldn't concern him.
Warform May 31st 2010 1:18PM
As for the issue with the Battered Hilt, there's bound to be people upset no matter what you do. The buyer is obviously happy since he got a nice 4k bargain on the item, it's none of other people's business and they would probably not simply give it away to just anyone within their guild, just to the people they like the most.
If for example you gave it for free to person X, then person Y who would be raiding and therefor using it "for the guilds progress" could feel passed because he/she "deserved it more" than a more social member. All in all, stick to whatever you decided at the start, and don't let others guilt you into something that doesn't feel natural to you.
Faith Trust May 31st 2010 1:30PM
Yeah, they put you in a though spot, if faced to such cases just do the transactions with your bank toon, that way there is less of a guilt trip or you can do business normally and not lose that many money thanks to the anonymity of your bank alt.
For all the trouble its brought you, you would've been better off selling to a non guildie, you'd made more money and there wouldn't have been so much trouble...
Squatstopee May 31st 2010 1:48PM
I agree with the above. Don't give the gold back though. Free to guildies only goes so far... I can see it on an item worth a few hundred gold, hell do all the engineers in guild give away mechano hogs?
Baba May 31st 2010 1:52PM
To the writer of that email, what has the buyer been doing about this? Imo, this rests on his shoulders to resolve it on your behalf. The cynic in me thinks that he asked to buy it from you, did the quest so as to make in non-refundable, and then 'accidently' let slip about it so that you'd be pressured into refunding him. He gets a free Quel'delar = profit.
Do not refund him. He asked to BUY it, so that's the end of it. State what happened, ask the buyer to back you up publicly, and if he declines or the abuse continues, move on.
Good luck :)
Lachann May 31st 2010 3:38PM
I agree with Warform, both parties went into the deal knowing what it was, they both chose to click the 'Trade' button. Why the guy who received the Hilt isn't sticking up for the seller I've no idea, but maybe Baba is right in suggesting he planned to guilt the 4K gold back all along. If it were me, I would state my case in open guildchat, pointing out that it was the buyer's suggestion. If the bad feelings on the part of the guild remain, simply gquit, it's not worth the trouble especially since you had offered a very deep discount.
Glaras May 31st 2010 6:03PM
Scott, I have to ask, with reference to your advice on the Battered Hilt issue: **are you out of your mind??**
To even suggest that he return 6K gold is crazy. This is a pretty clear-cut case of an item that the writer was just plain lucky to get, and he shouldn't be expected to surrender that windfall to another person, just because "he's a guildy". He should keep the money, inform the officers that this was a private transaction that was mutually satisfactory, and that the subject is closed. There is a *limit* to how intrusive officers can be, and this goes over the line. If the officers press the point, then he should look for another guild. If the officers are going to give him crap over this, where else will they expect him to just give something away?
The Giant May 31st 2010 6:17PM
@BatteredHilt
To quote Gevlon himself, the guild you're in is filled with Morons&Slackers, and should be left in the dust. Even dropping the price for a guildie means you got conned.
theRaptor May 31st 2010 6:59PM
"Free to guildies" for me has a limit of about 100G, after that I half-price stuff. 10,00G is a hell of a lot of gold to most players (I have 8,000 G across all my characters) and not at the "free to guildies" level unless your guild runs communist style and the guild gives away enchanting mats and pays for repairs. I am generous to my real life friends but I am not going to give them a brand new car (or Grand Ice Mammoth) for free.
Pryn May 31st 2010 7:34PM
I would love to know the full circumstances of the writer getting the hilt drop. If he got it in a PuG, then its nobody's damn business what he does with his loot. If it was a guild made party then the policy to make the hilt available free for upgrades should have come into play the second it dropped and all should have passed on the item bar the leader to place it in the GBank or pass to an officer.
The guy said he's been in the guild 3 weeks. Shenanigans! Either they don't implement their policies at the relevant time and are bullying this kid to cover up for their failure, or they are just using the new guy and playing him for a fool to wrangle valuable stuff out of him.
mstieler8480 May 31st 2010 7:51PM
The guild seriously freaked out on this. I mean, I'm fine with giving nice enchants away for free to guildies (not enough to drain my supply of mats though, the odd re-enchanting of Super Stats or a nice weapon enchant here of there), and while I'd probably think twice about dumping 1k worth of mats and/or an item that would sell for 1k on the AH or in trade to a guildy, anything past that? Yeah, its getting sold. A guildy would get a discount on it, sure, so long as they asked. I can't exactly discount something that went on the AH.
With ICC & the Frostwing Halls, we've got a couple handfuls of awesome, mostly-BiS type gear that is BoE (Hilt, all the ilvl 264 stuff in ICC). And if I did wind up with an ICC BoE that I didn't have an immediate use for, I'd offer to sell it in Guild for a discount, then if I got no takers, off to the AH. I could see the original guild-in-question getting hot and bothered about doing that though. On my server, the Hilt typically doesn't even drop down to 10k, but the BoEs are still running pretty high prices, 12k up to 20k for some (damn you Wodin's Necklace; sell or keep for a current BiS neck?).
Steve May 31st 2010 10:01PM
Yeah I can see you crafting your new guildmate something or giving them mats for enchants for free but a Battered Hilt?!? I have only seen it drop once and seeing as you could have gotten 10k out of it, I think you did him a favor. There is a difference between smaller things like infinite dust or a frozen orb and a Battered Hilt. It's way way way too rare to just be given away for free. It's like when I will sell a Saronite. I won't just give it to a guildmate, but I'd sell it to them for cheaper.
Dusky May 31st 2010 11:28PM
My guild has no such policy, but giving guildies free items is a private policy of my own. If someone in guild tried to tell me I *should* do it or that I'm obligated to, I'd probably put the brakes on it very quickly. No one has a right to demand someone else's generosity.
This is why I wouldn't even announce it in guild if I did get such an item. There's this sort of nebulous 'my home is your home' mentality that's present in guilds that does make them nice and feel like home, but can also make unreasonable demands on its members (such as times like this). It's not that unreasonable to expect not to charge guildies for services, such as cutting them a gem or enchanting a piece of gear. It starts getting into hinky territory the moment you begin insisting that members pony up the materials for such things and give them out free of charge to other guild members.
The best thing for people to do is say 'congratulations' when one of your guild members wins a hilt or hits the jackpot with a rare WoW:TCG card and don't ask what they plan to do with it. It's theirs, not yours, not the guild's.
Verit Jun 1st 2010 11:20AM
I think if its something he personally won than its his to sell for whatever he wants - even to guildies. Its akin to using your own materials to enchant guild gear for free - not really expected, and most guilds have a process for acquiring enchanting mats anyhow (just like they have a process for acquiring gear). Anything outside of that process is yours to do whatever you want.
Craftable items are different. If some guild member wanted to pay me the exact cost to purchase the items to make a mechnohog, or get them out of of the guild bank I'll do it for "free" since there is very little effort involved - same with any other item I can make or enchant. There's no expectation that I'm going to lay down the 13-15k myself to give someone in the guild a mount. You want one? Earn the money :).
crschmidt May 31st 2010 1:28PM
Agreed with Scott on the hilt. You were helpful (offered it a significant discount), and didn't do anything that was out of line. If it becomes a continued point of contention: I'd simply bail. I can't imagine a guild where I'm expected to give things that I earn through my own efforts to other guildies.
What's next? They're entitled to your skinning mats that you got while soloing? They're entitled to your disenchanting mats that you got while doing your daily dungeon?
The item was yours. You did something nice for a guildie (selling it at a lower price); I can't imagine what more someone could be expecting from you.
tommy May 31st 2010 5:24PM
Something very similar happened to me. I was the guild enchanter from the bc days. The guild would help get the enchants we would stockpile mats from raids and dungeon runsand stuff. No one had to contribute but some did occasionally. Being the de whore of the guild I was expected to contribute everything from every guild run. When wotlk came out and we were gathering shards for the enchants people would mail me some. I would put everything in the guild bank regardless of where I got it. My own heroics or a raid. So flash forward to a month ago and our guild was disbanding/reforming under a new gm. I did not get along with this officer. I decioded to leave the guild. The former gm and officers told me it would be ok to take some of the materials since I did not keep anything for myself. The new gm went nuts when she found out. She has kept me from raids on my server if she's on and causes drama. Its funny since she never gave anythong tp the gbank and would always get mats from our stash. Oh well! I have a new alt and raidin
Felix_rew May 31st 2010 1:32PM
@ the second mailer.
You shouldn't have given it away for free, if thy think that way, they should give you 6k a day. 6000g is alot of money to some people.
clundgren May 31st 2010 1:33PM
The battered hilt is a tricky one. The last time one dropped in a pug I passed on it, because I have better and it was a clear upgrade for the others in the pug. But I was essentially passing on a 10-15k (my server) AH item. So I when I told a guildy what I had done, he called me an idiot (we're friends; I wasn't hurt). My question: What are the ethics of the hilt? Is it cheesey to roll on it just to sell it when others in the group could really use it? Remember, for many players, this is the best weapon they will get in Wrath, as they don't raid.
Anyhow, if you do get the hilt on a private run, I think it is yours to do with as you will, and your guild is asking an awful lot. Do other members of the guild give you free stuff worth thousands of gold? 5k for your epic flying? Did a guild inscriber offer you a free Greatness card when you joined? It seems to me that the discount you offered was very generous.
zdave May 31st 2010 2:20PM
while i agree with what you said, if somebody isn't raiding in wrath, they will never raid. raiding has never been easier than it is now. forget about classic raiding that involved animal sacrifice to get an invite. in BC it was tough just to gear up to raiding (heroics and pre raid quests that were hard as balls!).
in wrath right now: "hey i just hit 80," two days later: "hey i'm geared for raiding," one hour later: " hey i just got a sweet drop off marrowgwar 10". that's literally how easy it is. if somebody isn't raiding, it's definitely some fault of their own.
and if they aren't raiding, yeah...no need for that 251 wep.