Encrypted Text: Vanish fix in the alpha

I am not in the Cataclysm alpha. I'm fine with waiting until the official release date to experience the goblin and worgen races first hand and to see the destruction that Deathwing's arrival has wrought upon the world. However, that hasn't stopped me from reading up on any alpha information I can get my hands on. A prepared rogue is a successful rogue, knowledge is power, knowing is half the battle, etc. My curiosity gets the best of me, and I can't help but speculate about the tentative changes that are coming our way.
There is one upcoming item in particular that has me incredibly excited: a possible fix for Vanish. The best part is that's there's even more to it than that: a possible "clutch" ability to replace the old Vanish immunity windows. I can't imagine rogues asking for anything more, considering that guaranteed restealths through Vanish are required for Vanish to remain a powerful cooldown. Let's be honest here -- who has seen a video of a rogue vanishing a Death Coil and not immediately wanted to go try it out? I can tell you that I called my warlock friend up that minute and had him outside of Durotar testing the technique with me. All rogues need is an instant of protection mixed with fast reflexes to get the job done.
What Vanish should do
Vanish should put a rogue into Stealth. I think that's a fairly neutral statement that all classes can agree on. Vanish should remove all movement-impairing effects. Pretty standard, it's part of the spell's design. Vanish should drop all of the rogue's threat. Not like we need this part with Tricks of the Trade, but hey, why not? After that point, things can get sticky. How long should a rogue be able to remain in stealth after a Vanish? Should the spell guarantee an opener? Should it negate any attacks that would bring us out of stealth? These are the questions that the rogue community and the developers wrestle with when trying to figure out exactly what Vanish is even supposed to do.
In this case, Blizzard has tipped their hand -- well, they tipped it to the alpha participants, who tipped it to the public internet. The new Vanish effect guarantees that we'll stay in stealth for a full three seconds after using the ability, regardless of any incoming damage or effects during that time. Now while it's far too early to start speculating about how this change will interact with spells like Flare and Faerie Fire, I think we can make some base assumptions here. Pre-existing debuffs like a DoT should not remove us from stealth for the first three seconds of a Vanish, spells that were in the air like a hunter's shot will strike us but we will remain hidden, and even a mage's furious Arcane Explosion spamming won't cost us the opener.
So we will be guaranteed an opener even against heavy offensive pressure, which rules. However, I am imagining Blizzard removing the immunity portion of Vanish from the table now and allowing all attacks to hit us during the Vanish effect. It's a fair trade, and I would much rather have Vanish do something reliably than pray to the latency gods that I was lucky enough to push "T" before the Death Coil reached me. It even gives Vanish some additional potency when used pre-emptively; a successful pre-Vanish while in stealth could allow you to charge that priest who is spamming Holy Nova and still get the opener. Vanish gives you an opener. I have to say, I'm pretty happy if that becomes the new definition for our signature spell.
Cloak of Shadows gets an upgrade
We knew that a new form of Cloak of Shadows was coming our way via a blue post. It was destined to move to a 100% resist chance; just look at what happened with the old Improved Sap. The randomness of a failed resist was simply too volatile for tournament play. It looks like CoS saw an even bigger bump, though, by inheriting Vanish's old immunity effect. The wording implies it will even make us immune to physical effects for a full second, which would make it the reactionary ability that we've always wanted. Tying it to Cloak of Shadows means that Vanish can be used reliably, and we have to make the decision between using our defensive CoS for a quick immunity burst or a tactical spell resistance period later on.
Is it fair for rogues to have an ability with such power? We're already a one-second GCD class that never has to cast. Why not grant this style of reactive technique to every class? These are tough questions to answer, but I look at it from the perspective of the other classes. Every class has its own flavor, and every class has a variety of defensive cooldowns that work in multiple ways. For example, why complain about rogues gaining a one-second immunity when every paladin gets a 12-second immunity? By putting our special "clutch immunity" effect on CoS, Blizzard is forcing the rogue to choose. We still only get one CoS per minute, and by consolidating our defensive abilities into tactical choices, the rogue PvP game becomes more exciting.
Conclusion
There's no more guessing about what Vanish is supposed to do: it grants us an opener. There's no more guessing about the proper way to avoid a Death Coil: pop Cloak of Shadows, or don't. Rogue retain all of the flavor that we've come to love, but Blizzard allows us to use Vanish for what it's actually meant to do instead of saving it for some showoff technique while we're running FRAPS. Rogues get a reliable and intentional immunity that comes with a cost that balances it, and we don't even need to add a keybind to do it. Blizzard needed to break Vanish and its immunity effect to balance it, and it looks like they've taken a smart approach to resolving this issue for good. Whether or not these changes will make it to release is another story altogether.
Filed under: Rogue, (Rogue) Encrypted Text






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
theRaptor Jun 2nd 2010 11:13AM
Good news. My rogue hit 80 a few days ago and already I have taken a few dirt naps because vanish didn't work properly.
Alex Jun 2nd 2010 11:16AM
Finally.
briker Jun 2nd 2010 11:24AM
How can they fix vanish? Make rogues vanish. Permanently.
Ver7ig0 Jun 2nd 2010 11:28AM
In other news, hell just froze over.
Fizzl Jun 2nd 2010 2:33PM
And the Mages will only unfreeze it when we get a blink fix!
jishdefish Jun 2nd 2010 11:30AM
Now... will bosses still see through it after I vanish and am not the last one alive?
I guess so. :P
Whirlahurl Jun 2nd 2010 11:44AM
...knowing is half the battle....GI JOE!!!! Love it!!
Vinicius O. E. Jun 2nd 2010 11:49AM
Wait... what? A fix for Vanish?! That rogue ability broken since Patch 1.1?
I don't want to sound pessimist but I heard this story countless times before. I think it's easier to see Garrosh and Varian holding hands and making babies instead see Vanish working.
GrumblyStuff Jun 2nd 2010 4:28PM
I really did not need that mental image.
Tom Jun 2nd 2010 11:57AM
Hey Rogue community - clarify this for me if you could because I've never really got my head around the vanish bug, or why it's such a big deal. Genuinely interested here.
I think I understand what happens when you use Vanish on Live servers - you Vanish, but a DoT, AoE, spell still travelling to you, or instant attack with poor latency pulls you out of stealth. This is the problem?
If I'm already made a mistake then please offer any clarification you can.
Assuming I haven't made a mistake yet -
How is this any more a bug than, say, a Shadow Priest using Fade but being instantly re-snared, or - I'm exaggerating a little - even just a Healer healing themselves and being instantly damaged again?
Is Vanish supposed to guarantee stealth for a certain amount of time?
Or is the problem simply that it's a poor game mechanic because it fails so often, and that it /should/ guarantee stealth if it's going to not suck?
I.e. is it working as intended but bad, or not working as intended?
And what leads us to think it's one rather than the other?
Chase Christian Jun 2nd 2010 12:07PM
That's the core issue here: people have mixed ideas on what Vanish *should* be doing. Some people thought it should just be a one-time ability to enter stealth, and that if you were instantly knocked out by an auto-attack or a hunter pet, that was just too bad. Some people thought it should be a full 10 seconds of guaranteed stealth. What good was entering stealth at all if you're immediately knocked out by uncontrollable forces? We're talking more about auto-attacks, missiles in the air, pets who don't stop chasing you, etc. Obviously getting AoE'd out was a tactic the opponent could use.
Blizzard has answered the question: Vanish is meant to give rogues an opener, and a 3-second window in which to perform that opener.
Rajah Jun 2nd 2010 12:19PM
Blizzard has said on numerous occasions that Vanish has never truly worked as intended. And you hit the nail on the head, it's a poor game mechanic.
As to whether or not they are really fixing it in Cataclysm ... I'll believe it when I see it.
Garrett Jun 2nd 2010 12:21PM
What vanish is supposed to do, mechanics-wise, is put the rogue into stealth, take the rogue out of combat, and cause anyone targeting the rogue to drop target.
Further mechanics do not allow players to cast certain abilities when they do not have a target, but because vanish runs into latency issues, it allows those spell to continue casting (or melee swings to continue) after the rogue has vanished and should no longer be targeted.
Other spells, like fade may have similiar issues where timing is very very important. I think the difference is that vanish is a game breaker; if a vanish fails, a larger portion of the rogues toolbox is now out of reach. that being the ability to open again with the attacks only usable when in stealth. Fade is used to midigate damage primarily, which is why mr. Christian argues that it is only fair vanish does not allow rogues to become immune to damage, because that's not the purpose of vanish.
Tes Jun 2nd 2010 12:25PM
Vanish is meant to put you back into stealth.
It increases stealth to such a level for a few seconds you will not be seen.
However it is broken so:
- Attacks in the air still hit and break it
- Attacks made during the time span of clicking vanish and the effect occuring still hit, breaking it
- Targeting is not dropped all the time though the rogue has a stealth level much greater than any detectable level and may be hit by an effect used after they vanished including standard melee attacks.
- Pets of all kinds do not drop target and will give chase, hit, and remove stealth
Remember vanish is a hinge ability.
It's an advanced form of feign death.
It used to have a reagent cost on top of the cool down, now dropped to 3 minutes, because it was intended to be a strong ability.
In the case of a resnare, note that vanish can break while the animation is running thus giving none of its benefits but burning a 3 minute timer.
In comparison to a heal, well if you cast it and lost the health due to a hit, that's normal mechanics. You gained the benefit of your ability. Vanish breaking is often complete happen stance and does not give you the benefit of the ability.
As to how it's known to be broken is that Blizzard has admitted that it is broken and has been for a very long time. They have been trying to fix it but have been wary of how they do so or it will become over powered.
Neodora Jun 2nd 2010 12:35PM
Vanish is just broken.
Example.
Rogue vs. Hunter.
Fight starts. Rogue wants to vanish and get away. He uses Cloak of Shadows(removes any DoTs and Hunter's Mark) and sprints away. Uses Vanish. He is now supposed to be safely out of sight. (unless a Shot is fired knocking him out of stealth).
However, The Hunter's Pet magically still can see the rogue even in stealth. The pet follows, attempting to attack.
The rogue must run away until the pet stops following to avoid an auto attack, effectively breaking stealth.
I did some research and this was supposedly addressed in the bugs section of the 2.2 Patch notes. Not sure If it that fixed it or not however.
Seth Jun 2nd 2010 12:45PM
Not to mention Vanish has a 3 minute cd (2 when talented). Fade has 30 second cd (15 sec glyphed and talented) and mentions nothing about being immune to snares for any sort of duration. The point of being in stealth is to not be targeted and therefor not being able to be hit by anything.
If Blizz wanted to lower the cooldown to say 30 sec(?) then I'm perfectly ok with getting knocked out of stealth by a Hunter's arrow a full 2 seconds after I pop Vanish. But to use my main "Get Me Out Of Trouble" button and have it fail a lot just seems unfair to me.
Chase made a great point - What's the point of using Vanish if I'm just going to be unstealthed by something that's not player controlled? (You fail if you try to Vanish with a DoT on you) Then Vanish becomes as useful as the Sentry Totem.
Tom Jun 2nd 2010 1:22PM
Thanks for the great answers.
I think it's odd you guys call it a bug - seems to me it's more a case of a poor/unbalanced mechanic - but glad I understand it more clearly.
Rogues have always been a very "technical" class in PvP compared to others - you play a lot more on the fringes of of the code - Vanishing Death coils, using the ability to get out of combat to allow restealth, use sap etc.
As a result I suppose it makes sense that something like this would be seen as a "bug" rather than just a balance issue. I think most other classes would not call it a "bug", but I think that's a matter of class culture - I don't mean this in any kind of derogatory way.
Seth Jun 2nd 2010 1:33PM
No you're totally right. People who don't play a Rogue don't understand how frustrating it is when Vanish doesn't actually make you vanish. They just /laugh.
Rajah Jun 2nd 2010 2:19PM
Blizzard calls it a bug. It's a bug.
AltairDusk Jun 2nd 2010 2:58PM
As a Warlock I'm torn. I've spent enough time playing a friend's rogue to agree vanish is broken and needs fixing but I think this may be too much. 3 second immunity means no chance to aoe and bring you back out, as a lock if a rogue is able to open on you twice the fight is lost (assuming they are good). I also see using dots to force a cloak if they want to vanish as a viable strategy. Rogues already have a lot of tools against squishy casters, this tips the balance too far.