WoW Rookie: When to use trinkets with Bloodlust / Heroism
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We're taking a break from bare-bones basics this week to address a topic that pops up for fresh level 80s who are still adjusting to their new curve of power. When is the best time to use long-cooldown abilities, trinkets or anything else that provides a massive, temporary boost in power? (The quick, easy answer: Regularly. Unused abilities that you're saving "just in case" tend to remain ... well, unused.) Things get more complicated, though, when you're juggling cooldowns in a raid group that's savvy to the benefits of a well-timed Heroism (Alliance) or Bloodlust (Horde). When is the right time to go for broke?
Join us for a quick roundup of thoughts from WoW.com staffers, after the break.Dear Glorious WoW.com Writers,
I have a question on my mind that I suspect a lot of other people have on their minds as well. Should DPS pop their cooldowns/trinkets during Bloodlust or after Bloodlust? I would think you should stack your cooldowns with Bloodlust because you get the effect of them plus 30% haste, increasing their effect by that much. On the other hand, maybe the wiser option is to use cooldowns after bloodlust, so you have the effect of the Bloodlust then the effect of the cooldowns, which spreads it out a little more. What are factors in deciding to use cooldowns with Bloodlust or after Bloodlust? Does mana limits factor in to this at all? I can't find a straight answer on the internet anywhere, and was hoping you could provide me with one.
Thank you,
Bownzy of Blackwing Lair (US)
Should you pop your trinkets and cooldowns during or after Herolust?
Matt Low: During Bloodlust.
Matthew Rossi: It actually depends on fight duration and length of cooldowns. For instance, on BQL, I use my DPS cooldowns right at the start of the fight, because they'll be back by the time we pop Hero. Any fight with longer than three minutes between the start of the fight and a Lust/Hero phase, you should use them twice.
Daniel Whitcomb: Generally, I recommend death knights do it all at once, especially since the only way Gargoyle and Dancing Rune Weapon get buffed by Heroism/Bloodlust is if they're popped while you're buffed with it. Generally, though, it seems like the idea once Bloodlust/Heroism is popped is to get the boss burned down ASAP, and popping trinkets/haste potions/major cooldowns helps get that going. I even made "pop during Heroism/Bloodlust" macros for my Lichborne elementary macro article.
Rich Maloy: I try to time as many on-use abilities (Sham Rage + Troll 'zerk + trinkets) with Hero/BL, plus Potions of Speed. I've been watching my weapon speed during recent attempts and have not reached the haste cap (floor?). We announce when BL will be used before the fight starts so people can time out their CDs. We try to use BL either early or late. Early means all trinky/CDs are available. Late means enough time to use them one to two times before we pop it off.
Also, haste is multiplicative, not additive, so it makes sense to stack it and other abilities.
Chase Christian: Rossi's got the right idea: Either Bloodlust immediately with cooldowns, or at 3 minutes with the second round of cooldowns. Bink at EJ did the math; it's better to use Lust/Hero with cooldowns than it is to wait for 35/20% boss life, so 0/3/6 minutes are the ideal times. That way, your DPS can always pop their CDs when available, and BL will always sync up with those.
Michael Gray: I would caveat: If it's a boss whose last quarter/third of life means the tank is getting hammered by a freight train, and the tank or healer is having trouble with that phase, save the BL/Heroism to minimize your exposure to that risk. Raids with dead tanks do 0 damage.
Fox Van Allen: I generally find that in real-world practice, adding haste bonuses on top of haste bonuses for DPS is a bad idea -- it mostly magnifies latency and makes your occasional mistakes all the more pronounced. I generally use Wild Magic during Heroism and recommend others do as well -- that way you get a nice synergistic effect between the haste, crit and SP without the frenzied button-pushing. It's one of those situations that theorycrafting just can't model exactly.
Mana limits don't factor at all into Heroism unless you're already having significant mana issues with your character. Running the numbers in my head, Heroism equals ... what, an extra 12 seconds' worth of mana use? How many people cut it that close? Besides, even if you are having those mana management issues, you should still be going all out for Heroism. Save mana management for when you're casting at normal speed and can't benefit from cooldown synergy.
Are the sounds of "Herolust" your cue to pop your own cooldowns? Let us know what strategies have worked best for you in the comments.
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
avva Jun 3rd 2010 9:53AM
Can you link the post on EJ about the bloodlust/heroism numbers crunch please?
Nighthavk Jun 3rd 2010 10:00AM
It's not so much that it's number crunching, but most class abilities and on-strike procs are on a 'three-minute rotation'.
Most class CDs have three minute CDs.
Most on-proc abilities last 15 sec and have 30 sec cooldown.
Thus, you'll proc your on-procs every 45 seconds: 90 seconds, 135 seconds, 180 seconds - This is three minutes, when your three min CD will be up again.
And later on, your internals CDs reset at 360 seconds - 6th minute.
This is why EJ suggests 0/3/6 minutes for max dps. I prefer the 0 minute BL, personally, in my raids.
Seamus Jun 3rd 2010 9:59AM
I like Fox Van Allen's answer the best. There's math and theorycrafting, and then there's real world raiding. Well done, sir.
Reki Jun 3rd 2010 10:02AM
Spellpower/AP boost on use trinkets are best used during heorism/bloodlust, especially if lust is just after DPS ramp up, or is coordinated to be on the end of a fight when CDs and trinkets are ready again after their first or second use.
I find crit chance stack trinkets (such as Nevermelting Ice Crystal) should be used off cooldown or when one's % or base damage goes up (not taking into account haste whatsoever). For example, I love to use Nevermelting Ice Crystal during an Arcane Power on my Mage, but after I've used an On-use SP trinket, troll Berserking, heroism (possibly), and Icy Veins. If you're forced to use two on use trinkets like I have, I like to figure out what goes well with heroism (straight SP or extra haste for a set period of time) or stacks that go away usually before their period of time is up are best used on cooldown or outside of heroism in favor of the other trinket.
Reki Jun 3rd 2010 10:03AM
Doh. *Heroism*, not *Heorism*
Tirrimas Jun 3rd 2010 10:02AM
As a player who focuses on 5-mans, it doesn't affect me so directly, except in the ICC instances. I tend to pop Bestial Wrath, Rapid Fire, and Kill Command all at once, at the beginning of the fight; I have them macroed to spells with similar cooldowns/durations so I remember to use them every time they're up.
Personally, I hate on-use trinkets. Unless it's macroed to a spell, I always forget to use them.
The biggest key to getting the biggest bang out of your Herolust is communication. If it's being saved for a specific portion of the fight, make sure everyone knows.
Dragons Jun 3rd 2010 10:03AM
I actually macro my trinkets to my shots (hunter) aswell as rapid fire and kill command
Moage Jun 3rd 2010 10:22AM
Idk bout other classes but I do know that that troll's beserking and mages icy veins does not stack with bloodlust
Badras Jun 3rd 2010 10:55AM
I know that you are wrong.
feniks9174 Jun 3rd 2010 10:40AM
#showtooltip Mirror Images
/cast icy Veins
/cast Arcane Power
/use 13
/use 14
/use 10
/cast Mirror Images
Macro name: ZOMG
(cutaia) Jun 3rd 2010 11:08AM
Use 10? That an Engineering slot?
JC_Icefox Jun 3rd 2010 6:05PM
If memory serves, that is the glove slot, so most likely an engineer only buff.
Possibly Hand Rockets, but more likely the Haste Boosters since he is a caster. Mmmm....once a minute haste spike.
spifffers Jun 3rd 2010 10:42AM
I watched that EJ threat as they did all the theorycrafting and analysis of raid logs to decide when the best Bloodlust time was. They even discussed how certain classes have extra damage during the 'execute' time when the bosses health is low. The idea of synchronizing cooldowns with bloodlust. The impact of having a couple dead raid members during a late bloodlust. etc. There were many discussions. Many revelations. But due to the sheer number of factors i would hesitate to say there was actually a 'conclusion'.
Some things though.
Generally for nearly all classes it was higher dps to pop cooldowns synchronized with lust than not. *BUT*... popping your dps cooldowns twice unsynchronized was ALWAYS better than saving them and popping them only once when synchronized with bloodlust.
The concensus was that unless there is a specific 'oh shit' phase where you need to have bloodlust to get out of that particular phase as fast as possible, on average the best idea was to bloodlust at the beginning so that everyone was alive and could sync their first cooldown usage with it and still get a 2nd use of their cooldowns later in the fight.
Ghangy Jun 8th 2010 4:31AM
Popping icy veins along with bloodlust isnt a good idea for my mage as the cast time of arcane blast with: icy veins + heroism + t10-2p bonus will push the cast time back to 0.92 seconds. With the gc always being 1 second its better to wait with icy veins till after heroism i think.
stat1k Jun 3rd 2010 11:03AM
Wow...I can't believe that no WoW Insider person mentioned the GCD. At this point, if you have gear that you can to into ICC with, cast anything and your trinkets are haste buffs, then I don't know why you would pop them at the same time. As an elemental shaman in ICC gear it would be horribly stupid of me to pop any buffs (trinkets, berserking, elemental mastery) at the same time as bloodlust because I WILL go under the GCD and that's just a waste and horribly inefficient use of your CD's.
Grubba Jun 3rd 2010 12:28PM
Because haste has different value for different classes and is not solely about lowering the GCD.
stat1k Jun 3rd 2010 12:37PM
I understand that but several classes ARE GCD capped with moderate ICC gear and not even a cursory mention of the GCD seems like bad advice is being given to the "rookies" reading this article. A caveat of "hey, depending on your class and if you have haste buffing trinkets, you might end up clipping the GCD to watch for what" would seem appropriate and beneficial to the "rookie" player. To completely ignore it seems either insulting to the "rookie" that they wouldn't know what a GCD is or just plain careless.
mltsandwich Jun 3rd 2010 11:06AM
For those of your who, like me, forget to use cooldowns during Herolust, you can use a mod like Pally Power to flash a graphic on your screen to remind you when Herolust is active.
Aloix Jun 3rd 2010 12:26PM
I think you mean PowerAuras ;-)
I tend to notice it from seeing the 'Sated' debuff on my unit frame (which is placed below my character, I use Pitbull not the default) and it's usually called out in Vent in the raids I run in.
Jere Jun 3rd 2010 12:16PM
someone many know this here, so I'll ask. Is there a possible addon that can change the sound of heroism to bloodlust. I've played both horde and alliance shaman, and I love the sound of Bloodlust so much more vs the tink sound of heroism.