The Care and Feeding of Warriors: Eternal Vigilance?
The Care and Feeding of Warriors is about warriors, those lovable, squeezable, strokeable bundles of pure joy who seethe with a burning inner fire, a rage that can only be quenched in blood. Matthew Rossi tries quenching it in delicious caffeinated beverages. You'd be surprised how often that works.
Sorry to say that this week we won't be covering levels 21 to 40 as I'd hoped. First off, I spent this week between feeling ill, raiding and taking a trip to go see dinosaurs, so alts didn't see a lot of play time. Secondly, we had some interesting blue posts to discuss. Well, I found them interesting, anyway.
Ghostcrawler - Re: Vigilance
In order to really appreciate this comment, you have to remember Defiance and how it affected tanking and tanking warriors before Wrath launched. Defiance was a talent aimed at increasing prot warrior threat over that of arms and fury warriors who were dropping into defensive stance for whatever reason in its original form. It was a staple of a protection build going back so far as to vanilla WoW.
You certainly could tank without it -- I and a lot of other warriors tanked up to Naxx-40 with a 31/20/0 build -- but many other warriors would make sure to spec up to Defiance even if they didn't go any further in prot. That 15% additional threat in defensive stance was simply more DPS that each and every member of the raid could put out without pulling aggro. Defiance became effectively mandatory for any tanking warrior in Burning Crusade, especially as rage issues came and went. The addition of expertise to the talent made it even more valuable since in addition to adding threat, it now added a stat that acted as both a threat and mitigation stat. (Removing the tank's chance to be parried reduced his or her chance to be hit with a hasted parry counterattack.)
With the launch of Wrath, however, that bonus threat was simply added directly to defensive stance. (Other tanks had similar talents folded into their tanking styles, as well.) As a result, Defiance was dead ... But as Ghostcrawler (lead systems designer) points out above, warriors got a new talent that effectively became "Defiance 2: The Revenge of the Defiance" with Vigilance.
This isn't to say that Vigilance is a bad talent; it's not, not at all. In many ways, it's a great talent -- well-budgeted, does a lot for one point, makes you glad to spend 31 in protection. But it is both effectively mandatory for any serious or even semi-serious warrior tank and confusing for others to grasp. It's the kind of talent that does so much that it's often hard to explain to people, and those who often want it most are not always the best choices for using it. For instance, I've lost count of the times on tank swap fights that I've had aggro-hungry DPS players beg for the protective shield of Vig -- which would be great except that on a tank swap fight, I want Vigilance on someone I can ensure will be getting hit so that I can ensure that taunt will refresh ... which often makes it a great move to put on another tank. Meanwhile, other tanks hate the very idea of my putting Vigilance on them, afraid that I'm stealing 10 (or 15) percent of their threat. (To be fair, I would be, but on a tank swap fight I'll generally only apply Vig just before I'm going to need to taunt.)
Vigilance therefore serves as a Band-Aid for any warrior threat issues and replaces the annoying Glyph of Taunt (at least, it does if you can convince someone who will be getting hit a lot to let you apply it to him/her). But frankly, having to steal up to 15% of someone else's threat just to be on par with other tanks doesn't really feel terribly awesome. Likewise, having warrior threat be equal to that of other tanks and then suddenly letting warriors choose a talent that gives an extra 15% threat isn't fair to anyone else, either.
Furthermore, Vigilance's taunt refresh is entirely dependent on the target of Vigilance's being hit. What happens if you're using Vig on another tank to ensure taunt transfer? Well, if he or she dodges or parries or is missed, no refreshed taunt. Frankly, the idea of having to use Vigilance or a Glyph of Taunt to ensure taunt transfers on tank swap fights seems pretty bloody annoying anyway. Luckily, the statements coming from Ghostcrawler are making me hopeful.
Ghostcrawler - Re: Taunts missing = interesting gameplay?
So let's review what we like about Vigilance and what we don't like about it.
We like that it gives the target 3% damage reduction. We like that it refreshes taunt, even if we don't like that taunt mechanics effectively force a refresh mechanism or a glyph to reduce taunt miss chance by a ludicrous amount or risk a complete wipe on certain fights (P3 Putricide, Saurfang, Lich King's Soul Reaper). We don't like the threat transfer (warrior threat should neither be so low that Vigilance brings it up to par with other tanks nor given an artificial boost over other tanks via Vigilance), nor do we like that it's basically become a replacement for Defiance, a talent deliberately removed and simply folded into tanking stances/abilities.
Vigilance is a great example of a talent that needs a little refinement in Cataclysm, one of those infamous "edge cases" that mastery and talent tree redesigns could do something interesting for.
Ghostcrawler - Re: Mastery Design Intent
Making Vigilance more interesting might mean taking away the threat transfer and letting it have some other effect, perhaps allowing a warrior to share abilities like Last Stand or Shield Wall with the Vigilance target. (That would be great for a squishy healer you really want to keep alive; as it is, I often Vigilance the first target of Mark of the Fallen Champion if he doesn't have Blessing of Sanctuary already.) It could make it so that in addition to its taunt refresh, Vigilance reduces the chance for taunt to miss or even allows a warrior to "castle" with the target of the ability, switching places instantly so that a Vig target about to get his face eaten would suddenly be over where the tank just was. (This could be pretty open to abuse and might be too similar to the incoming priest "life grip" ability, though.) Since we're talking about Improved Overpower being interesting/powerful because it affects one ability, it seems likely to me that any future Vigilance changes in Cataclysm would be safest focusing on Taunt and how to make Taunt stronger and more interesting as well. Taunting a mob gives it a higher chance to miss anyone but the warrior? A silencing Taunt?
Removing the threat Band-Aid of current Vigilance should be helpful in ensuring tank threat balance, which is necessary. Hopefully the coolness of the talent and others on the review table will be retained in the process.
Check out more strategies, tips and leveling guides for warriors in Matthew Rossi's weekly class column, The Care and Feeding of Warriors.
Sorry to say that this week we won't be covering levels 21 to 40 as I'd hoped. First off, I spent this week between feeling ill, raiding and taking a trip to go see dinosaurs, so alts didn't see a lot of play time. Secondly, we had some interesting blue posts to discuss. Well, I found them interesting, anyway.
The Taunt renew part of Vigilance is cool and being able to essentially Salv someone can be useful too. Actually gaining threat from using the ability makes it feel like Defiance 2.0 though. You feel like you have to use it all the time (not that that's a huge burden, but still) to achieve the threat levels that other tanks essentially get without the talent.
In order to really appreciate this comment, you have to remember Defiance and how it affected tanking and tanking warriors before Wrath launched. Defiance was a talent aimed at increasing prot warrior threat over that of arms and fury warriors who were dropping into defensive stance for whatever reason in its original form. It was a staple of a protection build going back so far as to vanilla WoW.
You certainly could tank without it -- I and a lot of other warriors tanked up to Naxx-40 with a 31/20/0 build -- but many other warriors would make sure to spec up to Defiance even if they didn't go any further in prot. That 15% additional threat in defensive stance was simply more DPS that each and every member of the raid could put out without pulling aggro. Defiance became effectively mandatory for any tanking warrior in Burning Crusade, especially as rage issues came and went. The addition of expertise to the talent made it even more valuable since in addition to adding threat, it now added a stat that acted as both a threat and mitigation stat. (Removing the tank's chance to be parried reduced his or her chance to be hit with a hasted parry counterattack.)
With the launch of Wrath, however, that bonus threat was simply added directly to defensive stance. (Other tanks had similar talents folded into their tanking styles, as well.) As a result, Defiance was dead ... But as Ghostcrawler (lead systems designer) points out above, warriors got a new talent that effectively became "Defiance 2: The Revenge of the Defiance" with Vigilance.
This isn't to say that Vigilance is a bad talent; it's not, not at all. In many ways, it's a great talent -- well-budgeted, does a lot for one point, makes you glad to spend 31 in protection. But it is both effectively mandatory for any serious or even semi-serious warrior tank and confusing for others to grasp. It's the kind of talent that does so much that it's often hard to explain to people, and those who often want it most are not always the best choices for using it. For instance, I've lost count of the times on tank swap fights that I've had aggro-hungry DPS players beg for the protective shield of Vig -- which would be great except that on a tank swap fight, I want Vigilance on someone I can ensure will be getting hit so that I can ensure that taunt will refresh ... which often makes it a great move to put on another tank. Meanwhile, other tanks hate the very idea of my putting Vigilance on them, afraid that I'm stealing 10 (or 15) percent of their threat. (To be fair, I would be, but on a tank swap fight I'll generally only apply Vig just before I'm going to need to taunt.)
Vigilance therefore serves as a Band-Aid for any warrior threat issues and replaces the annoying Glyph of Taunt (at least, it does if you can convince someone who will be getting hit a lot to let you apply it to him/her). But frankly, having to steal up to 15% of someone else's threat just to be on par with other tanks doesn't really feel terribly awesome. Likewise, having warrior threat be equal to that of other tanks and then suddenly letting warriors choose a talent that gives an extra 15% threat isn't fair to anyone else, either.
Furthermore, Vigilance's taunt refresh is entirely dependent on the target of Vigilance's being hit. What happens if you're using Vig on another tank to ensure taunt transfer? Well, if he or she dodges or parries or is missed, no refreshed taunt. Frankly, the idea of having to use Vigilance or a Glyph of Taunt to ensure taunt transfers on tank swap fights seems pretty bloody annoying anyway. Luckily, the statements coming from Ghostcrawler are making me hopeful.
I'm going to vote for not interesting gameplay.
At the very least, you should be able to reduce your chance to miss a Taunt to zero if you reduce your chance to miss with a weapon to zero. It's also possible we'll just let them always hit.
At the very least, you should be able to reduce your chance to miss a Taunt to zero if you reduce your chance to miss with a weapon to zero. It's also possible we'll just let them always hit.
So let's review what we like about Vigilance and what we don't like about it.
We like that it gives the target 3% damage reduction. We like that it refreshes taunt, even if we don't like that taunt mechanics effectively force a refresh mechanism or a glyph to reduce taunt miss chance by a ludicrous amount or risk a complete wipe on certain fights (P3 Putricide, Saurfang, Lich King's Soul Reaper). We don't like the threat transfer (warrior threat should neither be so low that Vigilance brings it up to par with other tanks nor given an artificial boost over other tanks via Vigilance), nor do we like that it's basically become a replacement for Defiance, a talent deliberately removed and simply folded into tanking stances/abilities.
Vigilance is a great example of a talent that needs a little refinement in Cataclysm, one of those infamous "edge cases" that mastery and talent tree redesigns could do something interesting for.
Every player is going to have a different definition of "boring or bland talents" so that's not going to be a great litmus test. We're probably keeping Improved Overpower. It's the kind of talent that makes Overpower more powerful for an Arms warrior or just makes the ability more powerful in general. Because the talent affects one ability it can have a greater magnitude which is more noticeable than say a 5% damage buff.
Cruelty is the kind of talent we'll replace (probably by making it affect only a handful of abilities) and tanking talents like Anticipation (if we can get away with it).
Cruelty is the kind of talent we'll replace (probably by making it affect only a handful of abilities) and tanking talents like Anticipation (if we can get away with it).
Making Vigilance more interesting might mean taking away the threat transfer and letting it have some other effect, perhaps allowing a warrior to share abilities like Last Stand or Shield Wall with the Vigilance target. (That would be great for a squishy healer you really want to keep alive; as it is, I often Vigilance the first target of Mark of the Fallen Champion if he doesn't have Blessing of Sanctuary already.) It could make it so that in addition to its taunt refresh, Vigilance reduces the chance for taunt to miss or even allows a warrior to "castle" with the target of the ability, switching places instantly so that a Vig target about to get his face eaten would suddenly be over where the tank just was. (This could be pretty open to abuse and might be too similar to the incoming priest "life grip" ability, though.) Since we're talking about Improved Overpower being interesting/powerful because it affects one ability, it seems likely to me that any future Vigilance changes in Cataclysm would be safest focusing on Taunt and how to make Taunt stronger and more interesting as well. Taunting a mob gives it a higher chance to miss anyone but the warrior? A silencing Taunt?
Removing the threat Band-Aid of current Vigilance should be helpful in ensuring tank threat balance, which is necessary. Hopefully the coolness of the talent and others on the review table will be retained in the process.
Filed under: Warrior, (Warrior) The Care and Feeding of Warriors, Cataclysm







Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Whirlahurl Jun 4th 2010 2:19PM
I was looking forward to the level 20-40 guide, but as you suggested to Annephora...Scarlet Monastery....Scarlet Monastery....Scarlet Monastery until you have a little nub of a shield. I think that advice will get me through this week of leveling.
Mark Jun 4th 2010 2:26PM
I think your idea of letting Shield Wall and/or Last Stand transfer to your Vigilance target is brilliant! Thematically appropriate, and some interesting tactics could arise from it (saving healers, helping reduce damage to another tank on multi-tank fights, etc.)
squig_masta Jun 5th 2010 4:17AM
Actually the idea scares me a little. Do you really want to have to decide between using shield wall when it;s best for you vs when it's best for your favourite healer?
I guess it would be nice for fights where the OT isn't doing much but the MT is. "Dragon's about to breath on me and I already popped my Shield wall!' "Here, use mine!"
Sleutel Jun 6th 2010 11:48PM
Actually, unless you end up with double-CDs for all of these, I think it's a terrible idea. If a healer or DPS is taking SO MUCH DAMAGE that they need external CDs, something is wrong. And burning that cooldown on someone else means you don't have it for yourself, which may end up being fatal to you, anyway--and you're the member of the raid who is SUPPOSED to be taking massive incoming damage.
Antti Jun 4th 2010 2:32PM
The threat transfer of vigilance is my favorite part. When used on threat aoe dps machines it's amazing (boomkins, frost mage, hunter, locks). Switch to a single target threat machine and its also great for a boss fight (rogue, pally, dk). The taunt refresh is wasted because the threat transfer works so well. But then you mentioned the function of it in a 2 tank boss fight, and the mechanics really work in synergy. Also, if a 1 point prot tree talent is putting us on equal footing (can be higher with a skilled dps) with other tanks, id argue it's working ad intended, evidently not however.
Jorges Jun 4th 2010 5:17PM
I also love this part of Vigilance. I'm always asking for it and our tanks now have the habit of putting vigilance on me. I play a kitty, and with vigilance I can go all out without worrying too much about aggro. My ONLY threat reduction skill, cower, is a joke. It does nothing. 2 or 3 swipes on an AOE pull and I have aggro again. With Vigilance I can Berserk -> Swipe and AOE like crazy. Or ask our Blood DK to cast Hysteria on me and go all out.
Vigilance not only helps me put nice numbers as a Kitty, it also helps our MT to keep nice aggro and our raid to bring down trash and bosses faster.
Manadar Jun 4th 2010 10:32PM
I'd argue if the talent is needed to get them to equal levels of a bear. Now there's a spec with threat problems. No snap aggro ability (no abilities at all except the bleeds/direct dmg ones) and the worst threat scaling of all classes. Combined with the most boring gameplay in the game and you'll get why there's no bears left.
I'm sick of GCs constant nag about warriors when bears are in a much worse position.
Killik Jun 5th 2010 8:09AM
Probably because bears are in need of a more fundamental fix, unlike the rather minor class tweaks we're hearing about currently.
zdave Jun 4th 2010 2:52PM
i hadn't realized warriors were having aggro problems. vigilance is a great talent, not only for that aoe-ing sumbitch in random heroics, but it works on tank swap fights. if the vig'd tank is really missing that 10% of his threat, he's probably doing something wrong.
taunt misses, yeah that's gotta be fixed though. there's nothing fun and exciting about that.
Matthew Rossi Jun 5th 2010 12:02PM
I wouldn't argue that warriors are having aggro problems, especially not with Revenge whee it is right now: our single target threat is very solid. Our AoE threat is always going to be the lowest, nothing new there. Vigilance just has the aspect of a crutch about it.
Making it an ability you actually had to decide to use might make it more interesting. As it stands, you use it once every 30 minutes and then forget it.
Vogie Jun 4th 2010 3:02PM
I could see them adding a second Vigilance-like talent to be given to other tanks for the Offtanking scenarios. A pseudo Spirit link, that lets threat flow both ways and also give your "shield block" to the other tank while you are not being the one hit
Marvelous Jun 4th 2010 3:55PM
I don't see Vigilance as broken. In fact, I really like the flexibility that you get to pick the target of Vigilance. It's often seen as a badge of honor by DPS folks to be "awarded" the Vigilance buff, as well as a solemn responsibility to put up big numbers and help the tank's threat. In fact, as I reflect upon it, it's probably one of the best designed talents in all of World of Warcraft.
clundgren Jun 4th 2010 6:43PM
Same. I get a little kick when the tank inspects everyone before we start and then the vigilance goes up over my head.
But then I feel sadly rejected later on when he has moved it to the arcane mage.
It's a rollercoaster.
Grak Jun 7th 2010 6:26AM
Busy gearing my new 80 warrior tank up in the dungeon finder, and Vigilance has been a very curious buff, from a group-dynamic point of view. I will always initially put it on the best geared dps when we zone in, but I keep an eye on recount after the first trash/boss and re-apply it as needed. I've noticed that often the person who first gets it doesnt perform particularly well and coasts along in the middle of the dps chart.. but once I move Vigilance to the better performing dps theres a sudden change; the first dps pulls out all the stops and suddenly shoots to the top of recount. Its like this little poke "Hey, you're not really doing your best so you're not my favourite anymore. This little hunter nexto you with half your gear level is my new favourite.."
feniks9174 Jun 4th 2010 3:56PM
As a non-warrior DPS, I love Vigilance. In random heroics with a warrior tank, seeing that little buff pop up in the corner after a trash pull or two is something of a compliment to me. I'm pretty good at controlling my threat, so without it I can still manage and not be a douche DPS, but when the tank gives me Vigilance, it's like he's silently saying "Dang, you're blowing it up."
/beam
Evlyxx Jun 5th 2010 9:29AM
Or you could see it as a Dunce's Cap for being trigger happy and not letting the tank get initial aggro on the pull.
Keith Barriere Jun 4th 2010 4:47PM
Why couldn't vigilance be more like a reverse Misdirect? That way it could be more interesting as you would apply it to high threat targets to increase your own threat. As to the rest of the ability I agree that the taunt refresh shouldn't be mandatory, but it would be nice to keep it up for those fights that just have random adds in the fight. I know that some learning fights like LK where there are a lot of adds running around in phase one having a way to refresh taunt is a good thing, but it requires smart use of vigilance.
Zhiva Jun 4th 2010 6:23PM
"Rage issues came and went". I like the ambiguity.
Lemons Jun 4th 2010 8:13PM
Vigilance is like the warrior's version of Tricks of the Trade. It's does so many things that it gets to be a little ridiculous. It transfers threat, gives your target a 15% damage boost, gives you 15 energy, AND it makes julienne fries!
squig_masta Jun 5th 2010 4:19AM
Yes, but can it play dvds?