Encrypted Text: Weapon speed analysis

If you've ever played with a hunter, then you know that every weapon is a hunter weapon. Either they need to gear for some special gear set they're working on they're hoping that Blizzard allows them to use maces and wands someday. Polearms, swords and even daggers can all fall prey to their instant need rolls. I'm just happy that they're not allowed to equip their pets with gear à la Diablo II, or else there would be a massive weapon shortage.
Rogues, on the other hand, have very narrow weapon requirements. In most cases, weapon speed can trump nearly any other stat weight, due to specific mechanics that favor a certain type of sword or dagger. While Cataclysm has promised to roll all weapon types into a single, balanced specialization, we are currently forced to pick our instruments of destruction carefully.
Historically, "slower is better" has been a staple of rogue weapon selection. Going all the way back to two best-in-slot items, Teebu's Blazing Longsword and the Barman Shanker, we can see that even a 0.1-second difference was enough to tip the scales. While there have been several changes to rogue mechanics in the years since Molten Core, the most drastic changes to rogue mechanics were the recent poison updates. Most of our percentage-chance poisons were moved to a proc-per-minute (PPM) mechanic, shifting the entire paradigm of how we look at weapon speeds.
Deadly Poison forces one quick weapon
Deadly Poison had been designed poorly since day 1, as it was a refreshing DoT with no application effect. It wasn't until Adrine and the PoisonSwapper addon that this was brought to the public's attention and Blizzard was forced to react. The newly implemented Deadly Poison/opposite poison proc chance changes the way we think about weapon speeds and poison selection. Due to the fact that Deadly Poison was left on a pure percentage-chance proc rate, we require a quick weapon to be used. As a rule of thumb, any effect that has a flat percent chance to apply favors a faster weapon. No matter what spec you're currently using, you need at least one quick weapon for Deadly Poison application and maintenance.
Combat weapons
Of all rogue specs, combat has the most specific weapon speed requirements. Combat rogues probably know where I'm going with this already, but basically the entire combat energy regeneration system is based off the talent Combat Potency. The quicker the weapon, the more energy you will recover. As this talent is crucial to combat rogues' scaling properly with haste and haste effects, we're forced to use the quickest off-hand possible. That's OK though, because we already needed to use a quick weapon for Deadly Poison, so we simply combine the two and use a quick off-hand weapon with Deadly Poison on it at all times.
For our main-hand weapon, we're looking for the slowest weapon possible. Even after the instant attack normalization of vanilla WoW, slower weapons are still better for combat in the main hand. Our Sinister Strikes, Eviscerates and Killing Sprees have a chance to proc a poison, so having a slow weapon makes the PPM system work for us. What's nice about combat is that we can also use both swords and axes, which means that any slow or fast axe or sword can be used. While maces and fist weapons are an option for combat, those weapon specializations fall behind Hack and Slash in terms of potency. This is going out the window in Cataclysm, but that's still pretty far off on the horizon.
Mutilate weapons
If you're an assassination rogue, then you understand how important your poisons are to you. Without Deadly Poison, your Mutilates would feel like a swing from a foam bat. Without Instant Poison, your Envenoms would lose their powerful secondary effect. Poisons end up being a large percentage of your overall damage, and so optimizing your weapons to maximize their effect is key. It's why assassination rogues don't stack armor penetration and even do things like gem for haste. The quicker that a five-stack of Deadly Poison is active, the better. Their primary energy regeneration mechanism, Focused Attacks, is a percentage-chance proc and favors quick weapons as well. Coupled with the Deadly Poison requirements, it becomes obvious that mutilate rogues require at least one very quick dagger to function properly.
We know that assassination rogues will want at least one quick dagger to satisfy the Deadly Poison weapon requirement, but what about the other dagger? It actually turns out that the speed of the second dagger is not as important as the speed of the first. Slower daggers yield a better poison proc rate on instant attacks and stronger Mutilates, while faster daggers generate more energy for us to use. The difference between two similar daggers with different speeds is actually incredibly low, so find one quick dagger and then any other. In PvP, this paradigm shifts a bit, as stronger Mutilates are key to having the burst necessary to kill a target. Deadly Poison is also less valuable, as it takes time to stack up and can be dispelled. Two slow daggers are perfectly fine for PvP use, though I see many rogues favoring the slow/fast dagger mix so that they can use their weapons in both PvP and PvE.
The issue is if you have two good-quality slow daggers and only bad quick daggers. What do you do in this situation? I'm sure you can guess: spreadsheet it. I will tell you that a quick dagger from last tier will typically outperform a slow dagger from the current tier, when we're talking about the dagger with Deadly Poison on it. Unfortunately, there aren't a ton of quick dagger options available without raiding, and Blizzard has a penchant for placing them on later bosses like Professor Putricide. Combat, on the other hand, can find amazing weapons in both 10-man and 25-man versions of ICC from the first four bosses. I have seen a lot of raids initially dole out their quick daggers to rogues on a "one each" basis, so that every rogue will have at least one speedy weapon for Mutilate. Later on, once everyone has a quick dagger, they can go back and pick up a second one if desired.
Keeping us on our toes
With the upcoming changes to haste and energy regeneration in Cataclysm, I am fairly certain that talents like Combat Potency and Focused Attacks will see significant modification. Which weapon speeds are desirable for which specs can change with even the simplest change, so Blizzard can keep us on our toes as they refine the rogue class. What's important is to understand why we choose the weapons that we do, so that we have a better understanding of how our class works. The more you know about the class, the better rogue you will become.
Filed under: Rogue, (Rogue) Encrypted Text
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 2)
thebitterfig Jun 10th 2010 11:09AM
Sub is... hrm... like all things sub, complicated. You have instant, MH-only strikes, and that favors a slower weapon, due to PPM mechanics, kind of like combat. Realistically, you'll want a dagger of 1.8 speed. You can use a standard, combat-style weapon, but that'll force you to switch weapons for shadow dance, and even at full HM LK type Best-in-slot weapons it'll only net around 100 dps more than just sticking with a slow dagger. You also want a fast weapon for as many DP procs as possible. No realistic HaT spec has both Lightning Reflexes, and Improved Poisons, so your DP application will be weak, meaning a fast DP weapon is vital.
This has even lead to discussion where it might be better to follow a mutilate type practice, keep a fast dagger in the MH to increase DP applications (from the instant strikes), since there is actually a chance that a sub rogue's stack can fall off. If you follow that, you ought to just put the best weapon you can find in your offhand, regardless of speed, I'd imagine. You have no Focused Attacks or Combat Potency type talents to direct you either way.
On the other hand, it has been suggested that using Shiv in a pinch to keep DP stacks up would be ideal, and since sub is an energy-pooling spec rather than an energy-burning one, it could be worked in as needed. In that case, you'd probably want to go back to a slow MH, fast OH setup, to reduce energy costs, improve hemo/ambush damage, and poison procs off of instant strikes. Alas, since sub is behind in damage, the eggheads who moved in to figure out if it was viable mostly moved out and didn't really finish the job of figuring out the best way to do it.
As to sub's viability: it's like BM hunters or frost mages in terms of damage: semi-viable. Enough to be usable by someone who doesn't mind being down 5-10% in terms of spreadsheet damage - that is, behind by a level where the player will matter more than the theoretical difference. However, the difference is that sub is a harder spec to play relative to other rogue specs (BM is the easiest hunter spec by a hair, frost seems about even with arcane, and both arcane and frost are less complicated than fire). Additionally, Sub has lower utility than BM or frost, both of which provide buffs not provided elsewhere, where as sub just has higher TotT uptime. Whoopie! I love sub and the way that, unlike combat, finishers actually matter, but look forward to it being stronger at some point in the future.
Arrinaharris Jun 10th 2010 6:58AM
Some is spot on, some is WAY off. Example: Muay Thai has EXTREMELY quick kicks, many of which are far faster than the average Taekwondo kick because they are direct and not at all flashy.
Alex Jun 10th 2010 8:25AM
I would also love to see some more articles on sub spec. Or at least explain stuff like mechanics for all specs including sub and not just stick to assasination and combat just because sub falls behind in dps.
You have to remember that there are still people out there that love to play sub.
Personally for me, sub is the "one true" rogue spec. Sneaking around, spotting just the right target, and waiting conceiled in the shadows till the time is right, then... BAM! unleash hell upon your unsuspecting target, killing him before he even knows whats going on before vanishing again.
Note: I dont mean that the other specs arent the rogue way to go, sub is just my personal preference and I, and i'm sure others aswell, would like some more info on the spec.
Luci Jun 10th 2010 9:21AM
I BG lvl'd my rogue as sub til the 70s bracket and I absolutely loved it. I mentioned in an above comment that I would so do it again if I was doing arena. Shadowstep is my absolute favorite rogue ability. I hate how with pure classes ppl just throw the under-performing spec out the window in order to min-max. It's the same with my BM hunter. I know her dps isn't as good, but what sets a hunter apart to me is the pet! So I want a spec that focuses on the pet. I don't notice it so much with the more hybridized classes, but if you're a pure class and you're not playing optimal spec 1 out of 3 then you're not going to find much support w/in the community. Anyway, just my two cents....
Luciferous Jul 29th 2010 4:24AM
Totally agree with you Alex.
Bored with my Combat rogue I have rolled a Sub rogue and leveling him from scratch.
I have use the companion guide below as a rule of thumb and it feels almost like I'm playing a new game. Having lots of fun with it.
http://samueltempus.wordpress.com/2009/03/12/leveling-a-rogue-leveling-subtlety-10-80/
Sub spec is too often overlooked in the blinkered DPS numbers race. It's a shame because if people took the time to learn it they would find that it can be effective and fun.
ZeroDesu Jun 10th 2010 8:43AM
What was all that BS about combining all weapons into one specialization? Chase there is making it sound like, once Cataclysm hits, it won't matter what kind of weapon you use at all. Mutilate rogues using swords? I don't think so. The only thing I got from his link was that the special abilities that Warriors get will apply to all THEIR weapons, instead of just swords.
Luci Jun 10th 2010 9:32AM
Nice writeup Chase - question tho:
I skipped Focused Attacks in my Mut/Prep build. Energy wise I have:
Vigor + Glyph
Overkill
Quick Recovery
Relentless Strikes
...and I never seem to wait on energy buildup. I noticed that you called it a "primary" energy regen ability though. Did you mean for deep Assassination rogues?
Chris Jun 10th 2010 10:50AM
I'm currently Mut/Prep for PvP and there is one question I have regarding Deadly Brew. I will usually use instant poison on both weapons because of this talent, as I want to get my free crippling poison on the target. I assume this works the same way as the PPM instant poison? That is to say, if I put a faster weapon in my off-hand, I will not be applying crippling posion more often because the frequency of instant poison is not changed by weapon speed?
I guess what I am asking is--the speed that Deadly Brew procs (since it does not work with deadly poison) is already fixed regardless of the weapon speed?
Pryn Jun 10th 2010 1:02PM
Deadly brew also procs off Wound Poison. If you are Muti/Prep with 44/x/2x envenom then Wound/Deadly is optimal with the Wound triggering the Deadly Brew and stacking Deadly for Envenom.
If you're Muti/Prep with Evisc 41/2/25 then the Deadly isn't as essential, but you'd still at least be better off with one Wound in the mix over double instant (if you don't want Deadly at all and insist on using Instant). Double Wound was popular, but I don't personally play 41/x/x so I can't say for sure. Wound/Deadly is probs what you'll find recommended most places.
lethian Jun 10th 2010 11:03AM
jsut so you know not all hunters think everything is theirs, i don't, I'm constantly correcting hunters who do roll on stupid things especially if there is a rogue int he party who could use it more than them, that being said my bros a rogue and thinks that rogues have as much right to roll on a ranged weapon excluding thrown weapons as a hunter does my point being if you don't like hunters needing on something you could use don't roll against a hunter on a ranged gun or bow etc. if its a big upgrade for him, iv had that happen more times than i can count i don't think hunters should get maces it would be stupid.
Luci Jun 10th 2010 11:30AM
Agreed. I will always pass up a wep for a class that needs it more when I'm on my hunter. I always pass up ranged if there is a hunter in the group as well. I expect others to follow this same etiquette.
Luci Jun 10th 2010 11:31AM
Agreed. I will always pass up a wep for a class that needs it more when I'm on my hunter. I always pass up ranged when I'm on a different class (rogue for instance) if there is a hunter in the group as well. I expect others to follow this same etiquette.
Luci Jun 10th 2010 11:32AM
Ah sorry for the repeat. I thought i hit stop in time to correct my sentence structure, but I guess not. Downrate first post pls.
lethian Jun 14th 2010 9:57PM
glad to see others like me :)
Turlagh Jun 10th 2010 8:39PM
Please down rate Luci because Luci does not post without getting their facts straight.
Turlagh Jun 10th 2010 9:54PM
Oh I thought Luci meant my post... sorry.