Scattered Shots: Pistols for hunters?

The idea of hunters dual-wielding pistols has been around since the beginning of WoW. The reason it keeps coming up is because it's frickin' awesome. It was even recently addressed by Ghostcrawler (lead systems designer) himself in the Developer Twitter Chat back in January. Specifically, he said:
GhostcrawlerI should stress here that Blizzard has never said that they are going to do this, and they have never even said that they're considering it. However, we certainly know that they are aware of the idea. I started thinking about this again when BRK brought it up as a guest on the Hunting Party Podcast a couple weeks ago, and my half-formed ideas on how pistols could fix some problems with the hunter class grew into fully formed ideas.
Join me after the cut as we take a look at why I think this is more than just something cool, but also a much-needed change for the hunter class.
The only ranged class that cannot make full attacks from melee
Now, this is a somewhat delicate subject that must be approached with caution. Everyone jealously guards the awesome stuff that makes their class unique and hates the idea of any other class getting "their" mechanics. But we can be all too swift to want to get rid of the weaknesses that make our class unique. And without any weaknesses at all, the class would be pretty boring.
I love kiting and strafing and jump-shotting and stutter-stepping to let those auto-shots go off during movement and jump-disengage and all the little quirks and obstacles that make hunters so challenging to play well in movement-heavy fights. Those things that make it challenging are the same things that make it rewarding when you master the skills. I do not want to get rid of any of that.
But I do think that removing our entire toolbox of our shots when in melee range causes too many problems. I think this mechanic should be changed to make the class more intuitive and understandable, make PvP balance easier and more interactive, and make raid bosses more balanced and easier to design.
The dead zone
I should start by pointing out that things are better for us now than they were back in vanilla. Originally hunters had a "dead zone." Our shots only worked from 8 yards or farther and we could only melee from 5 yards or closer. So there was this range in which we literally couldn't do anything. This was removed in BC, but I still have nightmares of mages freezing me in place and dancing madly in circles blasting away while I looked on, helpless. Rather like getting jumped by a rogue, really.
Happily, we don't have the dead zone anymore. However, we do have that pesky melee range where all our optimization, our rotations, the vast majority of every ability given to our class to attack our enemies cannot be used at all.
Too many toolboxes
The first problem with our minimum range is that it forces us to have two separate sets of toolboxes, depending on where we're standing. Now every class has different tools for different situations -- ways to close and slow and snare and break slows and snares. But we actually have an entirely separate toolbox.
Once we're in melee, we set aside all of our offensive abilities, which can no longer be used at all, and switch them for an entirely different set of offensive abilities. If you're a raider, this other toolbox may not even be on your action bars. Of course we've heard that our melee toolbox will be getting pruned down in Cataclysm, which is good I think. But personally, I'd dump it all out. Get rid of it entirely.
The only purely melee ability I'd leave in the hunter arsenal is Wing Clip, and I'd change its name. Call it Pistol Whip.
PvP kite and close balance
The minimum range is also, I think, I big issue with PvP balance. Right now, if you see a hunter on the battlefield, the right way to deal with it is to close to melee and use whatever abilities you have to keep the hunter from getting away. If you're a warrior at 20% health and the hunter is at full health, you want to close with him. If you can stay in melee, you'll kill the hunter. You don't even consider hiding behind a pillar until you get some heals. This is not a decision to be made when facing a hunter; it's all about how well you can stay in melee. If you're a mage, the answer is the same. Stay in melee and you don't need to worry.
I worry that the PvP design theory with hunters requires an absolutely perfect balance of close and kite abilities. If a class has more ways to close and slow than the hunter has to break slows and get back to ranged, the hunter is doomed any time that class decides to focus on the hunter. However, if the hunter has more ways to break slows, get to range (and slow the opponent in turn), then the melee classes will never be able to attack the hunter and just get kited forever.
The current design requires such a perfect balance of those abilities and their cooldowns for equally skilled opponents to be on more or less equal footing.
If the minimum range is removed, just flat-out removed, hunters will still desperately want to stay out of melee, just like other ranged classes. But if that warrior with 20% is looking at a hunter at full health ... suddenly closing isn't always the right answer.
And best of all, that delicate balance of kite and close is suddenly less vital. Maybe you'll find that some classes can generally stick to us better than our ability to escape. Well, OK, we still have things we can do now. We aren't just sitting there toothlessly and futilely trying to escape. We have more options as well, more decisions. Do we try to escape, or risk eating the big damage and try to burst them down?
PvE design dilemmas
Hunter minimum range is also an issue for PvE content, though I'd argue not as big a deal as it is for PvP. There are some boss fights where it sucks to be melee and some boss fights where it sucks to be ranged. But hunters have the unique experience of enjoying boss fights where it just plain sucks to be a hunter.
In any fights where it's advantageous for the raid to all clump in melee (such as Marrowgar), it sucks to be a hunter. We are unable to take advantage of the mechanics that every other DPS class can. In fights where it's necessary for the raid to clump in melee (such as the Lich King valkyr or Putricide green slimes), then it really sucks to be a hunter. We suddenly get to be the only class whose DPS is radically cut.
Every class has its advantages and disadvantages, and overall I think they all work out pretty well. However, the minimum range is an entirely different category of disadvantage in raid content -- a disadvantage unlike any that any other class has. I also have to assume that the minimum range also limits the abilities of encounter designers somewhat. You can never make a boss that requires everyone to be in melee most of the time, because then you're designing an encounter to which you cannot bring a hunter.
Enter the pistols
One possible solution I'd propose -- other than just eliminating the minimum range entirely -- is pistols. Or hand crossbows. Both should certainly be in the game, but we'll call them pistols because guns are inherently cooler and superior to crossbows (both of which are better than bows).
Make pistols a melee weapon. Like any other melee weapon, they have a DPS stat and serve as a stat stick. But instead of working with melee special attacks, they instead work with ranged special attacks, just like our normal guns. They have ranged DPS. They only work from melee range, of course. Once we go beyond melee range, our attacks automatically switch to our real gun, just like we do now.
The best thing about this system is that it eliminates entirely the "two toolbox" confusion. We can still use every single shot that we normally use, but we can use it in melee range.
If you want to punish hunters for being in melee, you can still accomplish this goal. Make it so only your main-hand pistol actually contributes the ranged DPS number. The off-hand is there just as a stat stick. So you can choose to use an axe or sword or another pistol for your off hand. This means that our auto-shots and every shot that calculates its damaged based off of ranged weapon DPS will do less damage in melee range, due to the much lower ranged DPS of a one-handed melee weapon, as opposed to our big guns.
In this system, the hunter class is much more intuitive to play. You are a hunter: You have a pet that attacks, and you shoot things. You're just plain not a melee class. When enemies get close, you shoot them with a pistol for less damage; when they're far, you shoot them with a big gun for more damage.
You don't need to learn two different sets of abilities, but you do still need to learn to kite and disengage and you do want to stay at range. Melee is still dangerous. However, you are not completely toothless in addition to being vulnerable in melee range. You can shoot them in the face.
I realize that implementing this would require a lot of work. It's a big change. But it's the kind of big change you make during, you know, an expansion. This, more than anything else at the moment, is what I would love to see for the hunter class in Cataclysm.
[Update} Asher in the comments had a great suggestion for implementation: rather than adding a new item type to drop from bosses, fold it into Reforging. So you reforge regular guns/x-bows that already drop into the pistols/hand x-bows. Elegant solution!
You want to be a hunter, eh? You start with science, then you add some Dwarven Stout and round it off some elf-bashing. The end result is massive DPS. Scattered Shots is the WoW.com column dedicated to helping you learn everything it takes to be a hunter. See the Scattered Shots Resource Guide for a full listing of vital and entertaining hunter guides, including how to improve your heroic DPS, understand the impact of skill vs. gear, get started with Beast Mastery 101 and Marksman 101 and even solo bosses with some extreme soloing.
Filed under: Hunter, (Hunter) Scattered Shots
Patch 5.3 interview with Ghostcrawler
Mystery of the Unborn Val'kyr
The latest patch 5.3 news
All of the latest Mists of Pandaria news





Reader Comments (Page 2 of 9)
Toggle Jun 10th 2010 5:34PM
But the cool thing about the pistol idea is that you'd be able to use your shots in close range. A bayonet would seemingly have the same problems as using your melee weapons. Maybe it uses your gun skill in melee, but it would still be to be avoided in all situations. Good for flavor I suppose, but doesn't really do anything to address the fact that hunters have a completely seperate (and bad) toolbox in melee situations.
Sword Jun 10th 2010 6:06PM
one thing blizzard has not added yet are new kinds of weapons to the game. Sure we have had new races and so far one new class, and those are great and I hope they continue making new ones in the future..but imagine the possibilities if blizzard started adding new weapons.
You could have epic whips, flails. They could add in boomerangs(and I don't mean the current thrown weapons) that add in a "watch your back" element to pvp for example.
And small arms like pistols are a great idea and could potentially open the doors to many other possibilities
Haven Jun 10th 2010 7:24PM
A bow with a bayonet?)
Heimdallw32 Jun 10th 2010 7:52PM
"Snake, remember your CQC training."
Gun.
Knife.
Gun+Knife.
Gunknife!
Begin virtuous mission!
Beruza Jun 10th 2010 9:00PM
They should have every ranged weapon have different ranges, and have more variety of the weapons we get to choose from (depending how we want to play)
Shotguns - 0-15 yards, slow speed, very high damage, can hit 1-3 targets if all are within 3 yards of each other
Pistols - 0-25 yards, fast, low damage (dual wield)
Bows, rifles - 10 - 50 yards, medium speed, high damage
Crossbows - 5 - 40 yards, medium speed, medium damage
Sniper Rifle - 50 - 100 yards, very slow, very high damage
Maybe we could have 2 guns that we could easily switch between (with some sort of penalty, of course, like a 5 second no-shoot time).
Dehvi Jun 10th 2010 9:03PM
That sounds like a FPS, which WoW is not. I see your point but it would be FAR too cumbersome of a system to implement.
SR Jun 10th 2010 9:37PM
As for the idea of Shotguns and melee range shooting...
Why not just make shotguns into a semi-melee range gun? I could see a gun that hunters could swap out from their rifles/bows/crossbows for range-restricting encounters with a no-dead zone, 10-yard range weapon; for encounters where we are supposed to actually be in range, they can bring out their original, longer-range counterpart.
But then again, it's introducing another weapon type. However, we shouldn't have to pay a penalty that other ranged classes don't. If they decided to delete the no-shot zone, that would solve ALL the problem we're facing. What's to stop a hunter from shoving the barrel of his rifle into his opponent's mouth and pull the trigger? (Or a pile-bunker move with a bow, or whatever... Damned archaic weapon, they are)
Vaeku Jun 10th 2010 5:15PM
Good idea. I always liked the idea of having pistols in the game, and having them be the melee weapons would make sense. To add on to your idea, when you go into melee range and use your pistol(s), only some of your ranged attacks will work (maybe volley and multi-shot won't work, or something).
One thing though is that it would seem kind of silly if hunters had no actual melee weapons whatsoever, since that kind of goes with the lore of the class (hunters as survivalists or whatnot).
Corrian Jun 10th 2010 5:29PM
but I guess that would fell upon personal discretion, I mean, you would be still able to use swords ands staffs and whatnot if you wanted to. And some guns actually double pretty well as mele weapons IRL.
photofire1969 Jun 10th 2010 5:16PM
Ohhhh...how sweet it would be. I would love it on my hunter, dps handy cap and all would be better than trying to fummble those seldome used melee buttons. Please Bliz..give me Hunter da pistola's!!!
Healr Jun 10th 2010 5:18PM
GC's comment is remarkable in that he does NOT clearly and ruthlessly shoot the idea down. Blizz lingo tend to be extremely cautious. If they say they are "considering" something or "want to try out some ideas on the community" it means that with 99.9% likelyhood it will happen. if they say it is "an interesting idea but not on the table at the moment" and such, it probably will happen two patches away. if they, as in the pistol comment above, they toss around HOW it would be implemented, even though they say nothing that they will, but do NOT underline that it is not something they plan to do, means that they are in fact seriously considering it.
However, it is unlikely to make it into Cata, as development has gone too far and they already need to focus on "cutting stuff" rather than adding.
Avan Jun 10th 2010 5:19PM
The only problem I can foresee with adding pistols, is that they would exclusively be hunter weapons. Bows, crossbows, and guns can all be used as stat sticks by warriors and rogues. Pistols would become a class-only item, much like druid idols or paladin librams, meaning that, like idols or librams, pistols wouldn't be dropping off of bosses but instead be bought using currency. Another possible source might be that bosses drop engineering patterns which they can they use to make pistols; what hunter wants to be a slave to the engineering market again? (I know engineers would love gouging the prices.)
So, a partial solution to this would be to allow more than just hunters to use pistols, but what classes would use them? Probably rogues (most likely) and warriors.
It's a solid line of thinking, regardless.
seanthehorde Jun 10th 2010 6:19PM
I can definitely see Rogues and Warriors using Pistols. There are lots of examples in cinema and literature (as well as other video games) that have an assassin that has pistols concealed up their sleeves ready to use them when the time comes. Something similar to Assassin's Creed 2 is what I'm envisioning for a rogue (of course you wouldn't see this in game, but that could be a way to explain why Rogues and Warriors can use them)
To make the weapons more or less universal they could change some of the talents of Rogues and Warriors to allow Pistols to be used as certain (NOT ALL) melee attacks for Warriors or finishing movies for a Rogue.
What better way to win a fight then by blowing someone away with a Pistol at point-blank range.
seanthehorde Jun 10th 2010 6:24PM
In addition they could make Pistol's off-hand only to alleviate the OPness of them.
tr4vin Jun 10th 2010 8:07PM
I do agree that adding it as a drop for only one class would be annoying, as an example.... spell plate, even limited use multiple class items like wands can be a nuisance.
The simplest way to to add it would be as as a class special item such as "sidearm" and stick it in
your obsolete ammo slot, or just have it glued to your main hand.
As for scaling and type, have it be similar to your ranged weapon, wrist bow/pistol but only do about 45-60% of the damage.
We wouldn't have to worry about looking for one to drop, but... we wouldn't be getting cosmetic upgrades.
red_rag_Rogue Jun 11th 2010 9:38AM
The Pistols could be Range weapons like bows/guns, so other classes like rogues and warriors would be able to use them as well. Only Hunters would have a Talent/Passive ability allowing them to equip pistols in their Offhand!
Really like the ideas frostheim! very thought provoking article, You're one of the few Class columnists that generally makes the topic interesting and entertaining that pulls me in, even if it's for a class you don't exclude yourself to. Or it could just be your Devilishly Good Looks™.
think everyone who's played hunter long enough has mulled over how pistols could be implemented (best i ever could think up was just a niche where it would be faster then the other range weapons) Also as a side note, Guns (Rifles, Shotguns.... two handed firearms in general) are the only range weapon that uses Bullets as ammo, where as Bows share arrows with Crossbows, And that just gave me another idea! Crossbows could be "devolved" into a counter for pistols, so both guns and bows will have a single handed variant.. Yay for Brain food!
Ronjoi Jun 11th 2010 10:02AM
I think we could easily treat pistols like thrown weapons. In Pve they could be equipped in that slot and used for pulls, stat sticks buy the classes that can already use thrown. For hunters there could be talents that control the damage from the pistols. (Pistol specialization anyone?) Survival talents give PVP utility to pistols; MM & BM give PVE utility to the pistols. At range we have full damage from our spells at melee range you pull out your pistol and a slow sword (or shotgun) in off hand. The pistol is getting diminished damage from our main spells. The Off-Hand is only a stat stick doing white damage. As soon possible we move back out to range to resume our place at the top of the chart looking very dashing the whole time. The rouge and mage would have that one fight to take their place at the top of the chart we could doff our hat to their prowess and pawn them on the next boss.
I also like the idea of engineers being able to reforge a weapon from two-hand to one-hand. (Sawed off shotgun drool).
I think there are a lot of hunters who would like to mix it up a bit more than we can now. Blizzard is saying that there should be some more fun talents. How about say in the BM or Survival tree talents and paths that that allow us to get in there with the pet and mix it up a bit. Still better damage from range but we have chain on why not use it a bit. Maybe this is a bit too far but, how about a moth that spreads healing dust and heals us while we do a bit of melee.
jordan Jun 10th 2010 5:19PM
I guess they could replace the "stat stick" weapon slot that 2 handers and 1 handers occupy as a hunter only weapon that they could switch to and deal lower weapon damage with in close range, still being able to do the same attacks fairly seamlessly. that would solidify them as a ranged class.
RoseClown Jun 10th 2010 5:23PM
"Both should certainly be in the game, but we'll call them pistols because guns are inherently cooler and superior to crossbows (both of which are better than bows)."
OH NO YOU DIDN'T!
Bows are way superior, and more awesome in everyway, then guns and crossbows. They take skill, and come on. Ever study the hundred year war? The bows in that revolutionized the war field and were the ultimate weapon.
Skill, grace, and sheer pwning power belongs to the bow. Crossbows come second. After all, any schmuck can fire a gun.
Also, the hand crossbow idea intrigues me. I think I could go for that. But duel wielding pistols or hand crossbows seems a little much, and not the sheer simplicity and grace that are inherent in us hunters.
CDave Jun 10th 2010 5:37PM
"After all, any schmuck can fire a gun."
Funniest thing I've read all day.