Patch 5.3 interview with Ghostcrawler
Mystery of the Unborn Val'kyr
The latest patch 5.3 news
All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsScattered Shots: Pistols for hunters?
by Brian Wood 
Jun 10th 2010 at 5:00PM
The idea of hunters dual-wielding pistols has been around since the beginning of WoW. The reason it keeps coming up is because it's frickin' awesome. It was even recently addressed by Ghostcrawler (lead systems designer) himself in the Developer Twitter Chat back in January. Specifically, he said:
GhostcrawlerThe pistol idea for hunters gets suggested a lot. It could either be an alternate to the gun / bow / crosssbow or something they use for short-range attacks.
I should stress here that Blizzard has never said that they are going to do this, and they have never even said that they're considering it. However, we certainly know that they are aware of the idea. I started thinking about this again when BRK brought it up as a guest on the Hunting Party Podcast a couple weeks ago, and my half-formed ideas on how pistols could fix some problems with the hunter class grew into fully formed ideas.
Join me after the cut as we take a look at why I think this is more than just something cool, but also a much-needed change for the hunter class.
The only ranged class that cannot make full attacks from melee
Now, this is a somewhat delicate subject that must be approached with caution. Everyone jealously guards the awesome stuff that makes their class unique and hates the idea of any other class getting "their" mechanics. But we can be all too swift to want to get rid of the weaknesses that make our class unique. And without any weaknesses at all, the class would be pretty boring.
I love kiting and strafing and jump-shotting and stutter-stepping to let those auto-shots go off during movement and jump-disengage and all the little quirks and obstacles that make hunters so challenging to play well in movement-heavy fights. Those things that make it challenging are the same things that make it rewarding when you master the skills. I do not want to get rid of any of that.
But I do think that removing our entire toolbox of our shots when in melee range causes too many problems. I think this mechanic should be changed to make the class more intuitive and understandable, make PvP balance easier and more interactive, and make raid bosses more balanced and easier to design.
The dead zone
I should start by pointing out that things are better for us now than they were back in vanilla. Originally hunters had a "dead zone." Our shots only worked from 8 yards or farther and we could only melee from 5 yards or closer. So there was this range in which we literally couldn't do anything. This was removed in BC, but I still have nightmares of mages freezing me in place and dancing madly in circles blasting away while I looked on, helpless. Rather like getting jumped by a rogue, really.
Happily, we don't have the dead zone anymore. However, we do have that pesky melee range where all our optimization, our rotations, the vast majority of every ability given to our class to attack our enemies cannot be used at all.
Too many toolboxes
The first problem with our minimum range is that it forces us to have two separate sets of toolboxes, depending on where we're standing. Now every class has different tools for different situations -- ways to close and slow and snare and break slows and snares. But we actually have an entirely separate toolbox.
Once we're in melee, we set aside all of our offensive abilities, which can no longer be used at all, and switch them for an entirely different set of offensive abilities. If you're a raider, this other toolbox may not even be on your action bars. Of course we've heard that our melee toolbox will be getting pruned down in Cataclysm, which is good I think. But personally, I'd dump it all out. Get rid of it entirely.
The only purely melee ability I'd leave in the hunter arsenal is Wing Clip, and I'd change its name. Call it Pistol Whip.
PvP kite and close balance
The minimum range is also, I think, I big issue with PvP balance. Right now, if you see a hunter on the battlefield, the right way to deal with it is to close to melee and use whatever abilities you have to keep the hunter from getting away. If you're a warrior at 20% health and the hunter is at full health, you want to close with him. If you can stay in melee, you'll kill the hunter. You don't even consider hiding behind a pillar until you get some heals. This is not a decision to be made when facing a hunter; it's all about how well you can stay in melee. If you're a mage, the answer is the same. Stay in melee and you don't need to worry.
I worry that the PvP design theory with hunters requires an absolutely perfect balance of close and kite abilities. If a class has more ways to close and slow than the hunter has to break slows and get back to ranged, the hunter is doomed any time that class decides to focus on the hunter. However, if the hunter has more ways to break slows, get to range (and slow the opponent in turn), then the melee classes will never be able to attack the hunter and just get kited forever.
The current design requires such a perfect balance of those abilities and their cooldowns for equally skilled opponents to be on more or less equal footing.
If the minimum range is removed, just flat-out removed, hunters will still desperately want to stay out of melee, just like other ranged classes. But if that warrior with 20% is looking at a hunter at full health ... suddenly closing isn't always the right answer.
And best of all, that delicate balance of kite and close is suddenly less vital. Maybe you'll find that some classes can generally stick to us better than our ability to escape. Well, OK, we still have things we can do now. We aren't just sitting there toothlessly and futilely trying to escape. We have more options as well, more decisions. Do we try to escape, or risk eating the big damage and try to burst them down?
PvE design dilemmas
Hunter minimum range is also an issue for PvE content, though I'd argue not as big a deal as it is for PvP. There are some boss fights where it sucks to be melee and some boss fights where it sucks to be ranged. But hunters have the unique experience of enjoying boss fights where it just plain sucks to be a hunter.
In any fights where it's advantageous for the raid to all clump in melee (such as Marrowgar), it sucks to be a hunter. We are unable to take advantage of the mechanics that every other DPS class can. In fights where it's necessary for the raid to clump in melee (such as the Lich King valkyr or Putricide green slimes), then it really sucks to be a hunter. We suddenly get to be the only class whose DPS is radically cut.
Every class has its advantages and disadvantages, and overall I think they all work out pretty well. However, the minimum range is an entirely different category of disadvantage in raid content -- a disadvantage unlike any that any other class has. I also have to assume that the minimum range also limits the abilities of encounter designers somewhat. You can never make a boss that requires everyone to be in melee most of the time, because then you're designing an encounter to which you cannot bring a hunter.
Enter the pistols
One possible solution I'd propose -- other than just eliminating the minimum range entirely -- is pistols. Or hand crossbows. Both should certainly be in the game, but we'll call them pistols because guns are inherently cooler and superior to crossbows (both of which are better than bows).
Make pistols a melee weapon. Like any other melee weapon, they have a DPS stat and serve as a stat stick. But instead of working with melee special attacks, they instead work with ranged special attacks, just like our normal guns. They have ranged DPS. They only work from melee range, of course. Once we go beyond melee range, our attacks automatically switch to our real gun, just like we do now.
The best thing about this system is that it eliminates entirely the "two toolbox" confusion. We can still use every single shot that we normally use, but we can use it in melee range.
If you want to punish hunters for being in melee, you can still accomplish this goal. Make it so only your main-hand pistol actually contributes the ranged DPS number. The off-hand is there just as a stat stick. So you can choose to use an axe or sword or another pistol for your off hand. This means that our auto-shots and every shot that calculates its damaged based off of ranged weapon DPS will do less damage in melee range, due to the much lower ranged DPS of a one-handed melee weapon, as opposed to our big guns.
In this system, the hunter class is much more intuitive to play. You are a hunter: You have a pet that attacks, and you shoot things. You're just plain not a melee class. When enemies get close, you shoot them with a pistol for less damage; when they're far, you shoot them with a big gun for more damage.
You don't need to learn two different sets of abilities, but you do still need to learn to kite and disengage and you do want to stay at range. Melee is still dangerous. However, you are not completely toothless in addition to being vulnerable in melee range. You can shoot them in the face.
I realize that implementing this would require a lot of work. It's a big change. But it's the kind of big change you make during, you know, an expansion. This, more than anything else at the moment, is what I would love to see for the hunter class in Cataclysm.
[Update} Asher in the comments had a great suggestion for implementation: rather than adding a new item type to drop from bosses, fold it into Reforging. So you reforge regular guns/x-bows that already drop into the pistols/hand x-bows. Elegant solution!
You want to be a hunter, eh? You start with science, then you add some Dwarven Stout and round it off some elf-bashing. The end result is massive DPS. Scattered Shots is the WoW.com column dedicated to helping you learn everything it takes to be a hunter. See the Scattered Shots Resource Guide for a full listing of vital and entertaining hunter guides, including how to improve your heroic DPS, understand the impact of skill vs. gear, get started with Beast Mastery 101 and Marksman 101 and even solo bosses with some extreme soloing.
Filed under: Hunter, (Hunter) Scattered Shots
Reader Comments (Page 4 of 9)
Maralach Jun 10th 2010 5:30PM
No, melee should be a weakness for Hunters. Out of all classes, they have the best attacking opportunities. they have a very large range and most of their attacks are instant cast, meaning that they can still do very good damage while moving. If you'd give them those abilities in melee range as well, it would just be to difficult to kill them. This melee weakness is something need to be countered.
Frostheim Jun 10th 2010 5:53PM
My suggestion maintains the melee weakness. I'm not trying to remove a class weakness here, but a problem with the class.
Also, 1/2 to 2/3 of the MM rotation cannot be used while moving -- and that isn't counting our auto shots which also don't fire while moving. Hunters are the most difficult ranged class to manage movement because of the auto-shot factor. And I'm okay with that, but let's not pretend hunters are better than other ranged at attacking on the move :)
Dehvi Jun 10th 2010 6:37PM
Actually, I have a perfect solution for this. It coincides with Frost's line of thinking that, even in melee range we can still use our abilities, but with a large detriment due to having "theoretically" half the ranged damage we have on our long range rifles and bows. Keep in mind, we probably wouldn't be getting DW specialization to give us additional offhand damage like rogues. So our offhand would be nearly useless.
What I would propose, however, is extending the "melee" range to 10 yards. We dealt with 8 yards in vanilla, so it's not something we couldn't adjust to, but it's something that would add difficulty to gaining this advantage. 11 - 35 yards we get our good damage abilities. However, we have to maintain that 11+ yards. If we don't, our DPS get's a pretty large cut, BUT not nearly as large as we're getting now on fights like Lich King.
The mechanics to playing a Hunter, on the whole, would change very little. And we wouldn't have as many hunters hesitating about going in to melee PVE, which can often cause many problems.
Dreyja Jun 10th 2010 7:42PM
Weakness is one thing but completely handicapping us in PVP (esp solo) is another thing entirely. Something has to be done. I fear they will do nothing.
Omacron Jun 10th 2010 5:31PM
I'm honestly curious if it's possible for Blizzard to implement new weapon and armor classes. I'd love, in addition to pistols, to also have chain weapons and whips (maybe in the "flails" category), ever since I saw this picture during WCIII's development:
http://www.scrollsoflore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=19&pos=42
nekomancer Jun 10th 2010 5:31PM
Frostheim is dwarven hunter with gun - no chance for grace and simplicity in that, alas .-)
Mo Jun 10th 2010 5:32PM
Great Idea! This would end all the Rogue QQ about hunters taking their weapons. I also like the idea of Pistol Whip but it should be a stun or disoreintation that interupts instead of a slow effect.
Telwar Jun 10th 2010 6:24PM
Hell, rogues would kill for pistols. It'd be some nice turnabout.
Awwjwah Jun 10th 2010 5:33PM
Technically I don't see this as actually requiring A LOT of work in the sense of developing all new abilities and modifiers for a class nor do I see the need to have only one weapon fire in this option. In fact, if anything, I see this as opening the doors for much more in the sense of tree separation for a hunter having their own dual weapon spec like the DK frost tree.
Since nearly every spell or ability, for melee damage dealers (Ranged or not) is based on the ability having a set damage + ap, % of weapon damage + a set amount more, or use of a dual strike combined with either of the previous options then what needs to be changed? One hand weapon damage range is smaller than a two hander meaning that the abilities, within melee, would be a direct damage reduction as the abilities are always based off the main hand weapon, not both unless specified.
Personally I like the idea much better than being able to use every weapon in game.
The main drawback in the post that I see is the removal of that "second toolbox for the class, the melee abilities. In doing so Blizz would have to go back through the game to include a pistol as a quest rewards and or drops in dungeons from lvl 1 if you are removing all the classes melee abilities to make this occur. At that point, we would need, as a class, to be unable to equip any weapon BUT a pistol in our main hand otherwise the many hunters out there would call foul with "I swing my weapon for white damage" complaints. No more dual axes, swords, daggers, hammers, or 2-handers of any type with their massive agility, stam, crit and ap. We would forver be a 3 "gun" class.
A drastic change, but not one I am against. :)
Dehvi Jun 10th 2010 6:43PM
Blizzard is changing a large majority of the quests anyway, so adding pistols as a rewards wouldn't be much of a problem. And a tree separation would be a really bad idea. Although the idea sounds fun, all we really want is to help us out on one of our major weak points. We don't want to drastically change the way hunters play today.
Beli Jun 10th 2010 5:34PM
The only problem with this is the gear homogenization Blizzard is trying to go for. They don't want gear dropping off bosses that no one in the raid wants - Thus they started homogenizing things in Wrath, and are taking it further with reforging in Cataclysm. They're merging resto/elemental shaman gear, and ballance/resto druid gear using talents in the dps trees to convert spirit to hit, as an example.
Adding in a new type of weapon that only a single class can use goes against this design philosophy. But i won't just shoot down the idea... I'll offer up an alternative. Add a talent in Marksmanship that lets you use your gun in melee range. Call it "Sawed-off shotgun". That will give you the option of going that path or not. Put it high enough up in the tree that you can pick it up as part of your secondary tree if you want to dive deep into one of the others.
PKthe13thvah Jun 10th 2010 5:37PM
BRILLIANT
Andhar Jun 10th 2010 5:36PM
I'll admit this would be a welcome change, but I see one glaring problem with it – acquiring the pistols. If this was implemented, there would be an item that would drop off of mobs/bosses solely for the benefit of one class. Pistols would probably be very hard to come by – doubly so considering the suggestion of dual-wielding. If Blizzard decided to raise the drop rates to combat this, people would be seeing relatively frequent drops that are useless to 90% (or whatever the number is, i'm sure it's a high one) of the player base.
Perhaps the dual-wielding idea could be scrapped (even though it would lose a good bit of bad-assery) and a pistol could essentially be treated as a two-handed weapon, as odd as that sounds. This still doesn't solve the issue of having an item drop only for one class to use. Maybe a better idea would be to treat them as a sort of heirloom item. As a hunter, you start off with two pistols at level 1 with no stats and acquire stats on your pistols as you level. The stats should probably scale off the quality of your gear or ranged weapon, so not everyone has the same pistol stats at level 85. This "pistol vendor" would sell a variety of pistols, the most awesome of which would require level 85 and could cost emblems or a decent amount of gold in order to make them a bit more rare.
All in all, though, great column as always.
PKthe13thvah Jun 10th 2010 5:38PM
Well, librams, idol, sigils, totems, etc, all drop off of some bosses, and they're only meant for one class.
Andhar Jun 10th 2010 5:39PM
It seems a lot of people thought about the problem of acquisition as I was typing this up. Just ignore my first paragraph :D
Andhar Jun 10th 2010 6:00PM
@PKthe13thvah
As does spellpower plate, which I think is a better example since it is far more common as a drop than any of those. It seems like Blizzard is trying to simplify as much as possible, and I think adding another drop (that would need to be far more common than any of the items you mentioned) used by only one class would just further complicate things.
Djinn Jun 10th 2010 5:37PM
Here is what they should do. Thrown weapons are viable relic slot items for Warriors and Rogues. Make rifles, crossbows, and longbows a 2h equip main weapon slot item, make pistols capable of dual wield and let someone shoot the lights out with 2 guns if they want. Give them some sort of equivalent of Threat of Thasarian to combine the aggregate power of both for special shots but just give it some flavor that way...
frosstbyte Jun 10th 2010 5:38PM
I would absolutely hate to give up my beautiful polearm for a stupid little pistol or "hand crossbow."
I think Omegan said it very well when s/he said that blizzard ought to be moving the game back towards swords and sorcery instead of introducing evermore steampunk and victorian aspects. A short range pistol option might be A way to do away with hunter melee ineffectiveness, but I think it's a clumsy and overall pretty lame way to go about it.
I think a better solution would be to either A) give hunters a more effective melee toolbox for when we need to go to it or B) reduce the number of mechanics that really pinch down on it. All told, two fights in all of ICC don't really make me all that upset or care enough. It's certainly VERY annoying on HM Marrowgar to be sitting out there by yourself, but I'd rather do that every time than be pinging away at him with a pistol in melee range. That just seems ridiculous to me.
PKthe13thvah Jun 10th 2010 5:40PM
Obviously you wouldn't CHOOSE to use the pistol over a gun/bow because the DPS would be gimped. If they released pistols back in BC, people would STILL be staying out of Marrowgar's hitbox because the DPS would make up for the risk.
Omacron Jun 10th 2010 5:41PM
Warcraft has been pretty steampunk since WCII came out in the late 90s, man. Or did you miss all the zeppelins, submarines, riflemen, spaceships and giant robots? Warcraft isn't medieval fantasy. It never was. If it were medieval, we'd be a bunch of disease-ridden peasants who do nothing but farm manure and beat their wives.