Officers' Quarters: Emotionally invested
by Scott Andrews 
Jun 14th 2010 at 1:00PM
When you're frustrated with your guild, it's tempting to jump ship. But sometimes it's also difficult to let go. This week, one officer asks, can you be an officer in one guild and a regular member in another?
Dear Scott,
I am Raid Officer in a casual raiding guild. I attend the most raids and am one of the highest output players on each raid on all my characters. I am one of the most active, hardest working Officers in the guild.
We have always been lenient with who is allowed to raid -- we have some healers who do less than 50% output of other healers who are similarly geared, we have DPS that do less than half of what they should be doing (with "casual" expectations, I don't expect everyone to do 10k DPS but 4-5k is low for a well geared player in ICC with the buff). Even members of our A-team have been slacking a bit. Many players don't pay attention to the leaders in Vent, don't react well to constructive criticism of their gear, spec etc. PUGs are further progressed than our guild is.
Even if I raided a few nights a week with another guild, I would still do all my Officer duties. I would set raid teams on time, continue to raid with the guild (we don't have attendance requirements, some Officers don't raid at all) etc. If I played less with my current guild I would likely still be one of the hardest working Officers, one of the most present members/leaders in the raid, and one of the highest output players in the guild. I would also still raid more than the other Raiding Officers in my guild.
I really like being an Officer in my guild. It's a difficult, but fun job. I enjoy the social aspect of my Officer job, and I also enjoy looking at stats, and optimizing raid groups. I would like to play in another guild on another server, and continue to lead people in this guild. It would make me happier as an Officer to have some "relax" time playing with competent players without having to worry about leading them.
Should I talk to my Guild Leader again about this? He didn't give me a solid "no", but he was playing the disappointment card. Should I step down? We recently had an officer suddenly step down and quit the guild, and I don't want people to react the same way to me as they did to him.
Thanks,
Hard Worker
I commend you on your honesty, Hard Worker. It's not easy to discuss this type of thing with your guild leader. Some players would simply go ahead with the transfer and not say anything. They'd be around less but give no explanation for it.
I'm wondering what your guild leader means by "100% emotionally invested." Are you resting all your life's hopes and dreams on the success of your guild? Probably not, and I doubt he expects that, but it's an odd turn of phrase, especially in a guild where so many other players seem to be disinterested.
Emotional investment
Emotional investment isn't something you can really demand. It's a phenomenon that develops from valued social ties and success. Success doesn't necessarily mean raid progression -- it just means that people enjoy the activities that the guild facilitates. Emotional investment is what motivates people like Hard Worker to become officers and to contribute to the guild's success, and it's essential that officers feel some investment.
However, too much emotional investment can lead to drama. When a player overreacts to a change in policy or a new batch of recruits who alter the tone of guild chat, it's because he or she is too emotionally invested in the guild as it used to be. When a player shuns or screams at someone who has chosen to quit the guild, it's because he or she is terrified that the guild may fold.
I'm sure you understand that your question has put your guild leader in a difficult position. If he says no, he risks losing you completely. He wouldn't just be losing an officer, he'd also be losing the raid leader, who is often the hardest person to replace.
On the other hand, if he says yes, he's going to get a bunch of whispers from members asking him, "How can she still be an officer and raid leader when she's raiding with another guild?" Ironically, these complaints will most likely stem from members who are too emotionally invested in the guild. "If we're willing to stay," they will argue, "why can't she? And why should she have authority over us when she's not even around as much?" If you get your wish, Hard Worker, it's likely that you and your GL will have to deal with these attitudes. It's also likely that you won't have as much time to perform your officer duties.
So you can see why your GL is disappointed and why he's reluctant to give you a solid answer.
Optimism vs. realism
Overall, I think you are being optimistic about your ability to pull off what you intend. It's difficult for many people to make time for one guild's raiding schedule, let alone two. Not to mention, looking for a guild that you like whose raid nights don't overlap at all with those of your current guild could lead you on a long and frustrating search.
I also wonder what your transfer guild would think of describing your raids with them as your "relax time." Will you have anything left in the tank after leading raids with your original guild to perform your best in the new guild's runs?
Your intentions are good, but I have doubts that you can follow through for both guilds in the long run. I know my own limitations and I know I could never do what you're proposing. I'm not saying it's impossible -- I just think it would be extremely taxing.
My advice to you is this: Take a break from the game for a week or two to get some perspective and assess your priorities. Then ask yourself, do you want to be a raid leader with your current guild, or do you want to be a regular member in a progression-oriented guild? If you choose to stay, motivate people to try harder (or at all!) and your guild might see more progress. If you go, work hard in your new guild and you might eventually become the raid leader some day. Either way, you will be better off if you chose one or the other.
If you decide to leave, you may encounter some extremely negative reactions from your former guildmates. Just remember that it's a result of their emotional investment, and try not to judge them too harshly. Mostly, they are afraid of what will happen to the guild without you.
/salute
Send Scott your guild-related questions, conundrums, ideas and suggestions at scott@wow.com. You may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters!Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Xaverius Jun 14th 2010 1:15PM
Why can't he do what the guild leader suggested?
Step down as an officer, but remain in the guild as a now casual member.
If he choses this route - he will obviously have to be very careful not to step on any new raid leader's toes. If he were to go this route, it might be better if he didn't show the first few weeks to let the new raid leader get their footing.
The funny thing is, these sort of situations happen in real life all the time. For instance, we had a very beloved reverend who decided to move on in his ministry. He waited a few months before returning as a member now and then.
Muse Jun 14th 2010 1:29PM
Because that way, Hard Worker wouldn't be getting any kind of progression. The current guild is going nowhere fast.
Xaverius Jun 14th 2010 1:33PM
I suppose I should have elaborated just a little more.
Step down as an officer, but remain in the guild as a now casual member.
Hard worker could then join the progression guild on the other server.
Srslyyeswai Jun 14th 2010 1:38PM
Sorry to say it, but this is happening everywhere. If you can manage to get in a hardcore guild... I'm talking like top 100 US, then you have a shot at raiding consistently. Otherwise, it's a total crapshoot. Most guilds are recruiting because their members have lost interest in raiding and progression has halted. For every player they recruit, you're probably looking at them losing 2-3 consistent raiders. So you're walking into a dying guild no matter what.
I speak from experience. It was fun but ultimately a waste of time and money. My suggestion is to try to find like-minded and geared players on your realm and create a super-pug. Gear check and run consistently. You'll probably see better results that way. Just my 2 cents
Glaras Jun 14th 2010 3:42PM
On my server, Alliance progression raiding appears to be losing steam. The #4 guild on the server recently lost 6 members in 10 days (4 of whom were the class top-output raider in the guild), and those further down the rankings are suffering that bad or worse. While it is allowing a few guilds to pick up some quality raiders, it's also forcing those raiders to take positions where they don't have the hardcore support structure they had before. I doubt that Ruby Sanctum will stop the bleeding for more than a few weeks.
Mute Jun 14th 2010 1:17PM
We're seeing this in our guild too, at first I thought it was written by someone in the guild it's so close to the way we've been feeling. But honestly, it sounds like the GM just wants to maintain control. We encourage our guild mates to go out and raid with other guilds, because it lends to more experience and new insight. To borrow a terrible phrase, "the GM needs to let you go and hope that you'll fly back." You may just come back with some new insight that'll get you past your current hurdle. Two of the best officers in my guild have their "mains" in other guilds. But they always show up for our raids and they contribute when they can. I've seen too many guilds where it's more of a dictatorship than a partnership, it sounds like your guild may just be another one of them. The biggest advise I can offer is try to coordinate your schedule where your current guild doesn't feel your absence. If the GM has issues with you pulling a toon out, then it's HIS loss, especially if you are one of his most active officers.
kuri Jun 14th 2010 1:22PM
There are some truisms about stepping down or changing pace you just need to accept. Some of them are:
- The person/people above you will likely be disappointed, even ANGRY, as it shifts your responsibilities to them. They'll also get a massive amounts of /w's asking what happened. Any experienced GM will know this and, unless you're a useless blob, will play cards you'd never expect to keep you in the guild. Expect interesting conversations.
- Your guildmates will have varying theories about your departure (even if you're frank and direct about why you left), and you'll have people talk about you in positive and negative lights. Just like a break-up, people will react more emotionally than rationally, so you need to be ready to cut ties for a while until things mellow down.
- Unless you have a strong foundation of like-minded leaders, you alone will not be able to change the guild. You can change the setting or change yourself, but you can't change the masses.
- Unless you are unemployed and have absolutely no other obligations, you won't be able to raid across 2 guilds and be an Officer at the same time. You'll overextend yourself and either burn out or let people down.
Scott mentions strongly assessing whether being an Officer or experiencing progression is more important to your enjoyment of WoW. Ultimately, you're playing this game to have fun, and too many people treat these decisions like a career. People will still be your friend if you move across states or leave jobs, and it's no different in this case. It's your life and your time, so go where your feelings take you while being respectful.
Take a week to think it over, and take the plunge. Just don't expect a 100% rosy outcome no matter which way you go. I was in your shoes not too long ago (between a casual under-performing guild and a much better progression guild), and don't doubt for a minute you'll be able to climb the ranks to your former position if you have the right amount of passion. Also don't think you won't meet amazing people who might be as awesome or BETTER than the ones you're leaving. It's a big game, and it'd be a shame if you just stay in your eco-dome for comfort's sake.
Ghrall - Earthen Ring Jun 14th 2010 1:22PM
/agree
I came to a similar crossroads as 'Hard Worker' recently. However with my home situation, I couldn't commit to any guilds on my server. And having several 80's on the server who symbiotically support each others raid habits. I decided, my former guild was causing too much anguish on my part for me to continue. I have since started my own casual raiding guild which will not be a hard core raiding guild, but will have a bit more stringent requirements of those who wish to call themselves raiders. I hope your endeavor, whatever you may choose, goes well 'Hard Worker'. Mine is still in its infancy, but we'll see how it goes.
Fingal Jun 14th 2010 1:23PM
That's very good advice.
One other thing to consider, and this is what we do in our guild, Is this:
25 man content = Guild runs, we'll carry some people and progress slightly slower.
10 man content = Hardcore runs, hard modes, progression, achievements, content.
Maybe start up a 10 man group in your guild that has more strict raiding requirements.
(note - this can lead to bad feelings from the folks who don't get in!) but just be clear about requirements and goals, and you should be ok.
photofire1969 Jun 14th 2010 1:30PM
As a guild leader, in a friends and family casual raid guild, who has a similar situation come about, all I can say is what I told my Guild. This is a game, we are here to have fun, progression is nice, but not at the cost of friendships.
Some people decided taking a break was best, some took thier main's to another raiding guild, and some transfered servers, and some stayed. I hold nothing against anyone, they all chose what was best for their game experiance. Yes we no longer have a raid leader or attendance for raiding, but everyone is happier and doing what they want to do in the game.
Zanathos Jun 14th 2010 1:32PM
Ah, I've felt the squeeze from trying to raid with two guilds myself. At the start of Wrath I was leading 10 man raids with my smaller long-time guild, as well as participating in 25 man raids with a guild I became involved with towards the end of BC. It was certainly fun for a while, but raiding 4-5 nights a week caused burnout pretty quickly. Even if you think you play WoW every night anyway, having 5 nights a week committed is a bigger drag than you might realize.
SunGod228 Jun 14th 2010 1:51PM
The fact is the problems he is experiencing aren't unique to his guild a lot of people are taking leave of WoW waiting for the x-pack knowing they are gonna ramp up there play time. It will be hard to find a guild pushing progression or even doing regular weekly raids.
I think Hard Worker needs to look farther down the road and ask himself. Does he want to raid with his current guild when Cata comes out? If he does then perhaps he should work it out with the GL to take a leave for a couple months while he pushes progression with the expectation of coming back in the fall. The GL may be open to this since everything is slowing down with summer and an x-pac on the way. Or move on and find a guild a little more hardcore that you will get to see more progression with early on.
dawnseven Jun 14th 2010 4:48PM
I really have to agree with this (and some others in the same vein). This is the worst time ever to go looking for greener pastures. Rather than look at now, the OP should look at what he/she wants in the future and who they want to be playing with when Cata comes out. If it's the current casual guild fine, if its a more progression-oriented guild, then he/she should bide their time for now and resolve to vigorously work on that when the xpac actually comes out and people are ramping up. Doing it now when things are dying out due to summer and the fact that we're in the twilight of this expansion is likely to mean a lot of wasted effort.
Rob Jun 14th 2010 1:52PM
I've been there too, pretty much same situation. I was supposedly a raid lead in one guild that was very casual and I would do challenging content on my other toons. It was/is pretty tough to balance even if you didn't have obligations. I did, and my wife hated me raiding, and its hard to be in a guild unless you are raiding 3x a week. So, what else can I do. PUG what I can, let everything go. Now my toons are sorta in a guild but I don't raid but once a month if that, and the other social guild just pretty much folded due to various issues.
At a certain point I just realized in my raid lead job I didn't have much support, I had too many expectations, and the people just didn't care enough to make it happen. So I left, and passed the reins to someone else; eventually people that cared about raiding decided to go to big raid guilds who were built around raids. It's kinda a sucky situation but do what you want to keep yourself interested and happy. The worst thing you can do is have a part time job (which is what your social/casual guild sounds like), and have it be thankless, fruitless, and frustrating.
I guess in the end the only thing I can say is that if you are a raid lead you pretty much are the guild, you are expected to be on every day, helping people gear up for raids, helping with character optimization, etc. It won't work to punch the clock, show up at raid time, and discover the raid fell apart since you haven't been on in a week. Looking back, I really wish I could get my family life straight enough to raid twice a week, and build a solid raid team. However, if i were to do that I couldn't play for the 1-2 hours a night that you really need to build guild camaraderie and coach people. Maybe things will be different in cataclysm. As it is now, ICC is pretty easy, but so many are starting it as their first raid, which is a steep learning curve.
Failwoodian Jun 14th 2010 1:57PM
I see a lot of similarities here to what myself (and others) in my current guild have experienced.
Luckily, our GM is one of the few "enlightened" guild leaders out there. He's always had the attitude of "well, if the alternative is losing the person completely - let's do our best to try and accommodate where we can".
If you are really as valuable as you say, then your GM *should* be asking himself "what will happen when Hard Worker leaves?", and doing their best to try and work out an amicable solution - instead of digging their heels in, and pushing you into a demotion. Because the alternative seems to be you getting ticked, leaving completely, and dropping all the work on the GM & the slackers. Taking it one step further, because of all the work you've said you do, and the leadership role you take in so many things, your GM could easily be faced with a guild collapse once you're gone & raiding takes an even steeper turn for the worse.
If you weren't "emotionally invested" in the guild, you wouldn't have gone to him in the first place - you would have just started raiding with this other guild, without a word. Your GM needs to understand the value and volume of the work you do - and until he does, you'll forever be stuck between a rock and a hard place.
My suggestion would be - go speak to your GM again, but this time have an arsenal of information ready at your disposal:
* Bring up the previous Officers who have left completely due to burnout
* Bring up all the current Officers who are not pulling their weight and/or not contributing to raids; outline how your commitment has been (and will be) better than theirs
* Talk to other guild members & get their take on your situation, and bring their thoughts/feelings to the GM
* Make the GM understand all the work you're doing, and what he'll be losing when you eventually burnout from spending YOUR money to play the game the way someone ELSE wants you to play
* Realistic or not, everyone's playtime/availability is different. If you find that raiding with 2 guilds becomes a burden, then it's time to make people pick up the slack with the Officer duties in your current guild
... after all, it is YOUR money you're spending. Be *less* worried about what your GM wants, and *more* worried about what YOU want to achieve in this game.
Solanti Jun 14th 2010 2:02PM
"When I told the Guild Leader that I was considering applying to other guilds, he indicated that he would likely force me to step down as an Officer. "
"Even if I raided a few nights a week with another guild, I would still do all my Officer duties."
I'm wondering how the Guild Leader would have reacted if, instead of raiding with another guild, you'd mentioned some different hobby/pastime e.g. evening classes, sport, music, etc?
Would these statements make sense or would we think the Guild Leader unreasonable?
"When I told the Guild Leader that I was considering joining an orchestra, he indicated that he would likely force me to step down as an Officer."
"Even if I practiced tennis a few nights a week with my coach, I would still do all my Officer duties."
Baba Jun 14th 2010 5:44PM
Could be partially jealousy yeah, but the GM may also be concerned about burnout from the OP.
Imo, this step is sometimes done by people who want to slowly wean themselves away from their current guild, and spend more and more time with the new, more professional guild. Ultimately the GM may be worried that, when OP has to make a choice on a raid night, will he choose to stick with his first guild or hightail it to the new one, leaving the casual raid team in the dust. It's a slippery slope, and that may be the reason that the GM is trying to force a hard and fast decision now, so he doesn't have to chase after OP later on trying to get a straight answer.
Not saying that's what will happen, but it may be what the GM is afraid of.
Baek Jun 14th 2010 2:15PM
I'm in a sort of similar, yet completely opposite situation myself. See, my main is in a 25 man progression guild (working on Lich King now and getting some good results) and is an officer, and my alts are in a family run 10 man ICC guild (pretty casual/semi-casual) which I lead/raid lead. We had been in a guild before where someone tried to make it what it was not (a semi-hardcore raid guild full of casuals) and the results split the guild (got it such a bad rep that people had to transfer off the server, which I had already done before it got to that point). Tired of the drama I pulled all my toons out and got into a 25 raiding guild on my main and my other toons were in our family guild which was just there for the tag and gchat to play with family/friends. Then my family wanted to raid so I started recruiting some players and we run ICC10 on my mains off nights (well two of his off nights).
Now what it seems to me is that, sadly, the guild above isn't going to be a progression guild simply because the people in the guild don't care about progression. Now, what I would suggest is that you do not try to force something to be in a guild that clearly doesn't want it. You will confront people about specs, gearing, gems, output (or lack thereof) and it will piss them off. Why? Because they don't care and feel like it's an attack (since they are not used to the "hardcore" mentality and treatment that is no big deal for those who are used to it). If you keep pushing progression then ultimately I fear that you would be ripping the guild apart. Take a break and come back to it and see if people can get motivated to go and progress sure, but don't push it.
If progression and keeping your sanity are your ultimate goals then I would probably go ahead and shop around for another guild or make your own. I don't think anyone in my mains guild has taken issue with the fact that I have an alt guild that raids (even a few people from my mains guild have alts in it). So if you want your progression, I would start my own guild (25's would be harder at this point than a 10 man guild tbh) and see how things went from there. If people start making a fuss about it in your guild now, then make the choice, but be clear about it and your intentions to not try and force people to conform to what you want. You want to be a part of their guild but you do feel the need for progression, if it means stepping down from an officer position then that's what it means regardless of how hard you work (you might not need to work as hard as you say you do).
feniks9174 Jun 14th 2010 2:20PM
I've seen It go both ways. The guild I was an officer in during 3.0 and 3.1 was a smaller more casual guild that, due largely to member skill, couldn't do much more than one or two bosses in Naxx. It was frustrating for those of us who wanted to progress and see content as, at the start of 3.2 when people were getting decked out in T8, we had rogues and mages barely managing 2K on a good night (heroics were often a problem with the wrong combination of people). The GM and I both dropped toons out and took them to more progressed guilds. Unfortunately, the large portion of the guild took this as an abandonment and scheduled a mass exodus, breaking the guild.
More recently, though, my GM had alts in other raid guilds on the server and no one thought twice about it.
OverEmotional Jun 14th 2010 2:31PM
I think the term "emotionally invested" is an attempt by that GM to differentiate their guild from "a hardcore raiding guild." What I've found is that in a lot of hardcore raiding guilds, it's very internally competitive. There's a mercenary environment with no "emotional investment" in the guild's success, only your own; everybody around you is a competitor for your loot that you (barely) tolerate because you can't solo the content. (Yes, yes, I know not all hardcore raiding guilds are like that and especially not *your* hardcore raiding guild, which is populated entirely by Nobel peace prize winners.)
In our guild we recently had a situation where an officer moved his "main" (the toon that was an officer) to one of the server's top raiding guilds, and after some discussion, we felt that having an officer whose main wasn't even in the guild did send the wrong message. It felt more like officer-because-friend and less like officer-because-commited-to-guild, and we strongly feel that officers are the servants of the guild, not its "nobility."
After discussion, we decided to demote his remaining toons out of the "officer alt" categories. His alts remain as a successful and (I hope) happy members of our (super-casual) guild. With that said, probably half the guild has toons in some other guild/server, including me. Pretty much our only rule on the subject is that officers' mains need to be in the guild.
As far as I know, nobody is an officer in our guild and another guild (excepting bank alt guilds), but I suspect that's due to the time issues others have already mentioned. I don't know how we'd feel about it.
So I *think* I can see where the GM is coming from, but I don't think it's clear to the GM what he's trying to say, so it's no wonder it's not clear to the guy he's saying it to either.
If I were Hard Worker, I'd take a hard look at why I wanted to be an officer, because it sounds like stepping down as an officer and moving his best toon to the raiding guild might be the least-drama solution for him. You can be "just a member" and still contribute an awful lot to a guild, including "emotional investment." :)